David Stern vs. Jim Rome

Ehlo collapses because that's what you do when your HEART is ripped out of your chest by the greatest baller of his generation.

Although, now looking at the Ehlo video, Jordan does use his right hand with a subtle little tug on Ehlo as he goes by that helps him create the space for that shot. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that should ever, ever be called a foul. Just noting that there was that subtle little tug.

Now the Utah foul . . .



Go to about 50 seconds in. He puts his hand on Russell's ass and literally shoves him three yards away to create a wide open jumper. For those who would say a ref shouldn't make that call in any sport, take a look at Donovan's use of his body before scoring against Poland in 2002 and that WAS called back.



20 seconds in. Would have tied a critical WC game.

People knew before the game that it likely was MJ's last game as a Bull and possibly the last game of his career. MJ could have pulled out a shovel and hit Russell in the side of the head and it probably doesn't get called in that situation.

Why do you think the refs in college basketball are better than the NBA? People think that schools like Duke get favorable treatment compared to their opponents. Plus, point shaving is a bigger issue in college compared to the NBA. Maybe we should be watching the WNBA (Candace Parker FTW!)

Oh, you're one of those people.

I find that preferring college hoops over NBA, and thinking that preference is justified is generally a good way to identify stupid people. You might be an exception.

He's right, of course. Pro ball used to be a more team-oriented game and somehow it got transformed into a showboating, "superstar", give-me-the-ball-and-clear-out-so-I-can-drive game. The talent is better obviously, the basketball isn't. Nobody cares about the super-long regular season either.

And March Madness kicks the NBA Playoffs' ass in the ratings.

Would you also say that Madrid and Barcelona football teams play showboating, "superstar," give-me-the-ball-and-clear-out-so-I-can-drive games?

LOL. This stuff has been going around forever. I recall a 1982 newspaper article in Philly wherein the sportswriter said, look I see 100 basketball games per year, college and pro. You people are always telling me how bad the pro games are, how the guys don't try and are showboaters and so forth. I'm telling you that the very very best college game is worse than bad NBA game, that there's so much difference in talent, that the pro game is played so much more rapidly with so much more skill, that you can't even make a comparison.

Nice to know that 30 years later we're at exactly where we were, the same debates and same viewpoints. I say that from the point of view of a true conservative, not America's alleged conservative who don't conserve but instead believe in huge massive rampant consumption, but true conservative. Keep things the same. Forever. That's how it will be with NBA vs. college hoops discussions.

(Well this is the politics board after all, had to get that part in.)

I never said the NBA players weren't more talented or that it's not an incredible exhibition of skill. It is. And for what it is worth, the college game has deteriorated over the years thanks in part to rulesmlike one and done and the fact that the best players are properties of the shoe companies from about nine years old.

My opinion on this isn't knew. The first time I thought, "what a joke" was the old thee chances to make two rule. Anyone remember that? Everthing about the pro game screams "carnival." the announcers are all ridiculously over the top. The in game experience is an endless stream of dizzy bat relays and inflatable sumo suit contests where the corporate crowds go crazy with cheering and laughter before politely returning to their seats for some nice quiet basketball (at least until the last two minutes when a wildly shifting game inevitably ends up tied.). As to the "team game" aspect, look no further than international competition where the US has been spotty at best against countries with inferior players but good team defense and superior ball movement.

Go to a Bulls game, jump on a short flight and go to a KU game at Allen FIeldhouse and then tell me which is a better experience. The players may not be as good, but the sport is much better.

Alright now you're making some sense. I'm not buying a word about the tactics (the reason ball movement works in college basketball is that the teams aren't good enough to stop pure passers, whereas in the NBA forget about it, you ain't scoring without dribble penetration), but I'm with you on the atmosphere.

All the major U.S. pro sports are like that. I can barely watch the NFL for all the gladiator hype. Oh what I am saying, I don't watch the NFL, it is a plastic league. Its face is so tight that you can see the cracks when it smiles.

With Messi breaking free on occasion and going at people at will.

That's how the Chicago Bulls play too, pass and move, pass and move, and then Derrick Rose takes off. So now how can anybody be knocking the NBA?

A make-good for Chamberlain, after the league had banned dunks & over-the-backboard inbounds passes, because no one could defend against him?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_throw#Historical

This is definitely the case. Like most people I find Duke fans annoying as hell, but people don't camp out for Lakers or Knicks games. Entire states don't wear red for their pro team like you'll see on Saturdays in Nebraska.

And college gives you much more diversity in styles of play. Run & gun, 3 point shooting teams, motion offense teams, tough defensive teams. That's what makes the March Madness matchups so interesting and unpredictable.

Are college players any better? Look at the USA's performance in recent World University Games where the men's team has only won silver or better once in the last four tournaments going back to 2001.

What's so great about the atmosphere of college basketball games- the fans yelling expletives at the refs? The student section hurling idiotic insults at the opponents? Maybe it is the one and one free throws combined with the shorter 3 point line that causes the end of games to take forever to play. Yes, the carnival NBA rules ruined the game. Let's get rid of the shot clock so that we can bring back the four corners offense. We can call it the white guy basketball affirmative action program.

I like the college game better because the pro game is, to me, artificial. The illegal defense rule is the key reason for that. To me, it's just a way to transform a team game into an individual game. The 24 second shot clock is another; I think the pro game would be better with a 30 or 32 second shot clock.

It's a small thing, but it's stupid to have the clock reset only to 14 seconds if there's a foul on the defense in the front court. OK, don't give the offense the full 24, I see the logic in that, but 14 is stupid. 20 makes sense, it typically takes about 4 seconds to get across half court. But that rule is a symptom of the disease, namely, how the NBA promotes the spectacle rather than the sport.

That's another good point. In college basketball, you don't just see a battle of talent v. talent, you see battles of style. Not as much as you did even 10 years ago, as referee interpretations have made the drive'n'dish style generally the most effective. But it's still better than the unrelenting diet of pick and roll you see in the NBA.

1. The one and one is only in effect for the 7th, 8th, and 9th team fouls.
2. By far the best practicioner of the Four Corners was Phil Ford, a noticeably black human.

To put it another way, my take is that you're speaking out of ignorance. If you want to talk about white guy affirmative action, let's talk about the 3 point line.

Dave only loves college ball because there is no pro ball in North Carolina.

That's white American affirmative action. Foreign white guys can play, they don't need the help.

Yes & yes! The fans are far more into it. The bands play the fight songs. Dick Vitale spouts constant nonsense! How many shots of Woody Allen, Jack Nicholson or that retarded no-talent asswipe Spike Lee do I need to see to show how "awesome" pro basketball is supposed to be? It's all manufactured like the horrible music they pipe in the entire game.

College basketball fans taunted Steve Kerr because his dad was murdered, and held up signs reading "Patrick Ewing = The Missing Link". College basketball fans bad mouthed the Fab Five and UNLV teams as being ghetto gangbangers, because their black guys wouldn't act sufficiently white.

I'll take NBA fans thanks much.

No duh, genius.

Michael Jordan was black too. Is having MJ holding the ball so that Ralph Sampson can't shoot part of the great atmosphere of college basketball? Did the NBA ruin MJ as a basketball player?

The Chicago Bulls play that way until crunch time. Then in the cartoonish way that is the NBA, they clear out and isolate Derrick Rose on a defender. They abandon an offense that is run to have Rose be the focal point for basically no offense and just a 1 v. 1 battle. Then he goes down with an injury and they can't get a win against the 76ers. They run their offense until crunch time and are doing fine without him and then they try to isolate Luol Deng, or John Lucas III and wonder why they can't get over the hump without Derrick. Frankly, when he went down, I thought we might finally see a team close out a game by running their offense. I wasn't to be.

Cause this is much better