I think this is what you want - the total points from all top 50 votes combined? 1 Pele 1422 2 Diego Maradona 1388 3 Johan Cruyff 1376 4 Alfredo Di Stefano 1312 5 Franz Beckenbauer 1309 6 Ferenc Puskas 1263 7 Michel Platini 1225 8 Garrincha 1183 9 Ronaldo 1091 10 Zinedine Zidane 1070 11 Eusebio 1069 12 Zico 1067 13 Gerd Muller 1005 14 George Best 996 15 Bobby Charlton 940 16 Marco van Basten 903 17 Lothar Matthaus 781 18 Paolo Maldini 764 19 Lev Yashin 731 20 Romario 690 21 Franco Baresi 658 22 Lionel Messi 643 23 Roberto Baggio 591 24 Ruud Gullit 588 25 Didi 563 26 Bobby Moore 554 27 Rivelino 480 28 Giussepe Meazza 470 29 Stanley Matthews 468 30 Ronaldinho 430 31 Jose Manuel Moreno 377 32 Zizinho 339 33 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 316 34 Gianni Rivera 298 35 Raymond Kopa 295 36 Dino Zoff 288 37 Leonidas 239 38 Thierry Henry 235 39 Daniel Passarella 206 40 Matthias Sindelar 204 41 Cristiano Ronaldo 203 42 Fritz Walter 200 43 Paolo Rossi 198 44 Michael Laudrup 193 45 Sandor Kocsis 188 46 Rivaldo 176 47= Juan Schiaffino 156 47= Ladislao Kubala 156 49 Mario Kempes 154 50 Dennis Bergkamp 147 51 Falcao 134 52 Johan Neeskens 130 53 Gianluigi Buffon 129 54 Josef Bican 122 55= Gabriel Batistuta 118 55= Carlos Alberto 118 57 Peter Schmeichel 115 58 George Weah 114 59 Roberto Carlos 112 60 Giacinto Facchetti 111 61 Luis Figo 109 62 Teofilo Cubillas 108 63 Socrates 105 64 Luis Suarez Miramontes 103 65 Omar Sivori 102 66= Gordon Banks 101 66= Gyorgy Sarosi 101 68 Sandro Mazzola 99 69 Nilton Santos 98 70 Adolfo Pedernera 97 71= Gunnar Nordahl 95 71= Frank Rijkaard 95 73 Just Fontaine 92 74 Kenny Dalglish 89 75 Jozsef Bozsik 88 76= Jairzinho 77 76= Jurgen Klinsmann 77 78 Gheorghe Hagi 75 79 Elias Figueroa 72 80 Hristo Stoichkov 69 81 Duncan Edwards 68 82 Samuel Eto'o 67 83 Xavi 66 84 Hugo Sanchez 65 85 Cafu 62 86 Andres Iniesta 61 87 Valentino Mazzola 60 88= Matthias Sammer 54 88= Kaka 54 90= Dejan Savicevic 53 90= Uwe Seeler 53 90= Francesco Totti 53 93 Lilian Thuram 52 94 Alberto Ohaco 50 95 Arthur Friedenreich 49 96= Imre Schlosser 47 96= Nandor Hidegkuti 47 98 John Charles 46 99 Hector Scarone 43 100 Cesar Cueto 42 101 Gaetano Scirea 41 102 Oldrich Nejedly 40 103 Jose Leandro Andrade 39 104 Arsenio Erico 37 105 Luigi Riva 36 106= Ernst Ocwirk 34 106= Romerito 34 106= Kazimierz Deyna 34 109 Djalma Santos 33 110 Kevin Keegan 31 111= Jose Nasazzi 30 111= Luis Monti 30 111= Oliver Kahn 30 114 Dragan Dzajic 28 115= Francisco Gento 26 115= Ryan Giggs 26 115= Carlos Valderrama 26 115= Eddie Hapgood 26 119= Junior 25 119= Bruno Conti 25 119= Enzo Francescoli 25 119= Amadeo Carizzo 25 119= Alberto Spencer 25 124= Piet Keizer 23 124= Tom Finney 23 126 Eric Cantona 22 127= Zbigniew Boniek 21 127= Paul Breitner 21 129= Andriy Shevchenko 20 129= Mario Zagallo 20 131= Tostao 19 131= Bebeto 19 133= Domingos Da Guia 17 133= Albert Shesternyov 17 135= Arjen Robben 16 135= Rene Higuita 16 137= Fabio Cannavaro 14 137= Wim van Hanegem 14 139= Gunnar Gren 12 139= Claudio Gentile 12 141= Raul 11 141= Berti Vogts 11 141= Jay-Jay Okocha 11 141= Roger Milla 11 145= Ian Rush 10 145= Alessandro Del Piero 10 145= Abedi Pele 10 145= Anton Schall 10 149= Emilio Butragueno 9 149= Careca 9 149= Oleg Blokhin 9 149= Nils Liedholm 9 153= Sepp Maier 8 153= Leandro 8 153= Demetrio Albertini 8 153= Hugo Sotil 8 157= Gerson 7 157= Alessandro Nesta 7 157= Preben Elkjaer 7 157= Marcel Desailly 7 157= Neymar 7 162= Ruud van Nistelrooy 6 162= Wolfgang Overath 6 164= Edgar Davids 5 164= Ubaldo Fillol 5 164= Fritz Szepan 5 167= Wesley Sneijder 4 167= Fernando Redondo 4 167= Bryan Robson 4 167= Dixie Dean 4 171= Jorginho 3 171= Hector Chumpitaz 3 171= Roberto Donadoni 3 174= Telmo Zarra 2 174= Gary Lineker 2 174= David Trezeguet 2 174= Rob Rensenbrink 2 178= Deco 1 178= Marco Tardelli 1 178= Rafael Marquez 1 178= Murtaz Khurtsilava 1 178= Steve Bloomer 1 The bolded players are just the ones higher up using this voting system than using the top 30 vote system so you can probably ignore that.
Ah ok mate sorry. At the moment and mainly on my idea of their peak form, with some account of consistency, adaptability etc I guess too it is: 1 - Pele 2 - Johan Cruyff 3 - Diego Maradona 4 - Michel Platini 5 - Alfredo Di Stefano 6 - George Best 7 - Marco van Basten 8 - Zinedine Zidane 9 - Franz Beckenbauer 10 - Eusebio 11 - Bobby Charlton 12 - Ferenc Puskas 13 - Lionel Messi 14 - Zico 15 - Ronaldo 16 - Michael Laudrup 17 - Luis Figo 18 - Ronaldinho 19 - Bobby Moore 20 - Lev Yashin 21 - Garrincha 22 - Kenny Dalglish 23 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 24 - Gerd Muller 25 - Franco Baresi 26 - Lothar Matthaus 27 - Roberto Baggio 28 - Tom Finney 29 - Dejan Savicevic 30 - Dennis Bergkamp 31 - Thierry Henry 32 - Ruud Gullit 33 - George Weah 34 - Stanley Matthews 35 - Andriy Shevchenko 36 - Jurgen Klinsmann 37 - Paolo Maldini 38 - Peter Schmeichel 39 - Johan Neeskens 40 - Kaka 41 - Gheorghe Hagi 42 - Duncan Edwards 43 - Giussepe Meazza 44 - Gianni Rivera 45 - Francesco Totti 46 - Jairzinho 47 - Dragan Dzajic 48 - Frank Rijkaard 49 - Cristiano Ronaldo 50 - Eric Cantona I said those positions for Messi and C.Ronaldo might be dependent on starring somewhat in the CL and WC over the next months but actually I would err on the side of not lowering them again now I think.
Just in case you wanted to see 51-100 too, it is on page 60. On that post I included some teams they had played for, but it should be easy enough to identify. As you saw I updated your vote too when I noticed your latest ranking on your web page .
Well the names in BOLD were too overhyped for their "peak" form ... For example: - Platini, Basten, G Best ... NEVER had a "true peak form" betetr than Puskas, Zico, Ronaldo Eusebio, -Zidane Figo, Klinsmann, Daglish did NOT have good peak form over Gerd Muller, Ronaldinho ... I think you confused between consistency and true "peak form". ============================================== Let's start with which year(s) are their peak form and compare them to be fair ... Zidane never had any "phenomenon" peak form, nor did Platini - but they did have a very consistent high level world class for many years ...
Dearman, what have you done? (No, I'm only joking - you were very welcome to ask me to list 50 players and it's true it would have been hard to find now - as I've said before it's also nice to be able to include your top 50 as a vote and be able to see the up-to-date version on your webpage).
And James, I request you are not called a moron by others and this is how I get repaid?. You and greatstriker did end up talking about CA97 and he was impressed with Ronaldo too! Well, maybe that would have happened anyway quite possibly to be fair. No, of course it's ok and like I mentioned on the other thread you do praise some posts and question others by the same person so that's fine. I'll try and answer your questions.... Firstly, I don't mean to say my list is an attempt at ranking who has had the best season(s) or year(s) in history as such. But it is coming from the question of 'top' players more from generally thinking about in my estimated view the 'best' players rather than the 'greatest'. But, just as comme's positional all-time lists or Dearman's top 50 indeed are not considering solely who had the greatest career but other factors too, my attempt doesn't absolutely focus on maximum peak form over a few games or whatever. So on a seasonal/yearly basis (eg 96/97 or 1997 perhaps) Ronaldo would likely be a bit higher as I think I suggested on another thread once and also if picking out his most impressive/rampant displays. Probably not on a seasonal basis, but on an absolute peak form basis I feel like Platini could move below Best although I notice you bolded best too. I hope this makes sense - I am thinking I suppose of the players' general inherant qualities, including in different types of game etc, from their peak times generally speaking. I'm not sure we should get into toooo much of a long debate but for the players you mentioned I'd think they were in peak form generally or sporadically at these times (but not exclusively these times - others too probably): Platini - 83, 84, 85. Best - 68 & other times like 66 and 71 too. Van Basten - Euro 88, generally 88-90 then also 92 although his physical state wasn't perfect, also probably in and around 85 at Ajax. Zidane - various times (which I understand was your point) incl. 97/98, at times in 99 like vs England, 00, 01, 02, 03, WC06 - not necessarily having among the greatest years but nevertheless showing a lot of good form and some great games during these times if you know what I mean - so his inherant level was world class and he could raise it in certain games even further. Figo - similar case to Zidane and was showing some peak form in say 97 when his physical peak maybe was (in terms of ease of movement, speed etc) and continued through to about 01 with say 99-01 being his peak in terms of maturity, efficiency I guess. Dalglish - I think definitely 82/83 but also similarly good in late 70's. Klinsmann - probably late in career between 94-96 generally speaking. Hagi - WC94, 93/94 probably I think too for example. Totti - probably 2000, 2001 all things considered. So, I hope that helps you understand even if you may still disagree a little bit. Comparing a peak Ronaldinho to a peak Platini is not necessarily easy - Platini was less spectacular in some ways (but some of his goals and passes were certainly spectacular) but still had other areas of the game (spreading the ball around, controlling the play etc) where he was superior. Gerd Muller has better goal stats over seasons and career than Dalglish and wasn't only a poacher, but Dalglish had more skill and genius to his game.
Ok, no problem. I guess you'd feel he could go as high as about 14th right in there with Messi and that'd look more appropriate to you? I suppose you'd think he should at least go to about 17th and depose Figo if you were 'advising' me anyway based on what you've said in the past... Anyway, that final grouping of my 50 has a lot of players in so I'm not thinking of his placing as being much more than a whisker behind Henry, Gullit etc. I know you feel he could/should be above some of the others clearly on whatever basis we consider but I think we did discuss things enough to understand where we're coming from (even if you still don't understand why I don't have him higher). I think there is some truth to it being an era where players like him can feasibly score so many at a club like RM but that's not to say many could do the exact same thing and to be fair although Man Utd did well after his time he was rampant in his time in the PL more than others (well near the end of his time; Henry was more prolific before that as we discussed). I do feel in high quality tournament games he often doesn't shine or be so decisive and he still takes a lot of shots and many end up over the bar etc (so it makes sense that he does better when he has more chances, albeit he can score from 'half-chances' too). He is skillful but there have certainly been more creative players. Anyway 49th (and close to 33rd) is not bad in the grand scheme of things but lets agree to understand you'd put him a fair bit higher.
Fornt For the sake of a good discussion, I'll counter. Ronaldo has been directly influential in a variety of tournament games. Just last year his goals were necessary for Real to advance vs. Man U and Gala. He's scored in 3 CL semi finals as well as a CL final. In terms of NT success, he's been more influential than Figo and, frankly, it isn't even close. Figo was very important to Portugal, but Ronaldo ALONE was the reason we beat the Netherlands and Czechs at Euro 2012. Figo rarely had that type of influence, and this is considering the fact that he was a part of a more talented team than Ronaldo. Figo also never carried Portugal the way Ronaldo did vs. Sweden. No one has since Eusebio. I respect your opinion, I really do, but I don't think it's a surprise that you're in the vast minority in your thinking on the subject. His consistency to outshine his peers (he was 19 when he made the Euro 2004 team of the tournament that Figo did not make) is testament to his ability. In fact, in the two tournaments they played in together it can be very much argued that CR7 outshined Figo. It was, afterall, the 21 year old Ronaldo that was, by far, Portugal's best player against France in 2006. Figo is actually remembered in Portugal for missing our best opportunity in that game.
Ok, mate I'll go for one more counter counter lol (and then of course you'll probably want to reply but then most likely I'll leave your reply as the last word). You're right that Ronaldo can be and has been influential (at least in terms of decisive moments, but of course that is his forte - he's not expected to run the show so to speak in terms of playmaking but of course if others did then that is a consideration for me I suppose - you will be surer than me but he probably has a better creative influence at times vs teams that Real can dominate and have lots of possession against). On a similar note to what I just wrote in brackets, I feel like in last years CL semi his overall influence was not fantastic. I remember that he was very vibrant in the early stages of the 2008 CL Final though. The hat-trick vs Sweden was certainly him at his most effective I think (though that pass to him for one of the goals was exceptional too although he mixed composure and finishing ability perfectly to finish the chance). I do think Figo could have a different influence at times, being more of an instigator of moves and someone who's skills could turn a game in his team's favour/change the balance of a game etc I suppose (England in Euro 2000 could be a good example for the NT do you think?). Actually, though athletically and mostly in terms of nominal position C.Ronaldo and Figo are more similar than C.Ronaldo and Muller, in terms of function and role I might compare him more to the German and he was someone who always seemed to manage to score his goals whatever the stage (even excelling the most in the biggest games at times); to be fair though Muller did play in an era which at NT level probably was easier to score in than this one, he played for a legendary NT and club side (partly because of his exploits) that could dominate a lot of games and I'd suggest his WC70 goals total was partly due to luck because he scored so many tap-ins - of course he had a good sense for being in a good position to score but some of those could have been scored by average players I think with no problem. And I think my final point would simply be that if I'm thinking of Figo's prime as not really going beyond 2001 then any overlap between C.Ronaldo and Figo in the Portugal team would be after that time. Figo wasn't finished as a world class player (remember his great goal and general good goal vs Man Utd for example in the CL) and there could be arguments either way (and there have been on other threads I think) about which of the two players had better tournaments in those they played together (I seem to think WC06 was better than Euro 04 for both players, but you will certainly have more vivid recollection I'm sure). Portugal were unlucky to miss WC98 I think and that would have been Figo's other 'prime' opportunity to shine in a tournament I guess (as there wouldn't be any for him in 97, 99, 01).
I can agree with that point on Figo being more of an instigator but even in the example you gave, vs. England in 2000, that was a game where Joao Pinto put up a sublime header, and Rui Costa had 2 assists. He simply had a better supporting cast that could also aid him. Against the Dutch and Czechs in 2012, virtually everything had to go through CR7. Even Nani managed to miss an open net against the Dutch. In regards to your point on Figo's prime not extending past 2001, I'll agree, but let's not forget Figo was also only 29 at the World Cup in 2002. If anything, that counts against him. Also, while Figo was not in his prime when playing with CR7 at the two tournaments, neither was Cr7. He was 19 and 21 respectively and still managed to outshine a 31 and 33 year old Figo. And while I agree Portugal was unfortunate against the Germans in 98' it cannot be forgotten that Portugal lost easy points and because of that didn't manage to even make the play-offs. I think the fact that CR7 hasn't missed a major tournament since playing for Portugal is telling. Even more so that as we saw vs. Sweden, sometimes its purely because of him.
I don't think one can blame Figo for missing easy point at the 1998WCQ http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/figo-intl.html He missed one game. In the games he played, only against Northern-Ireland (0-0) easy points were lost. Draws and losses against Germany and Ukraine aren't exactly easy points. The one game he missed was a 0-0 against Armenia. That is exactly the two points they missed.
I'm not suggesting he is the sole person to blame. It's the team overall, but he has to accept some blame, as do his teammates. A win against Northern Ireland would've been enough. And frankly, if you're trying to go to the a World Cup, a loss against the Ukraine is unacceptable. But again, I am not placing all, or even most, of the blame on Figo.
Germany also dropped points against Ukraine and Northern-Ireland despite their vastly superior strike force (23 goals vs 10 and 12 goals for Ukraine and Portugal). I understand your point and agree with how you express it above. But also C Ronaldo his team dropped a lot of points (though maybe with an inferior support cast although that was not visible at all against Sweden!). For euro2008 qualification his team dropped points against: Finland (2 times), Poland (2 times), Serbia (2 times), Armenia For 2010WCQ: Sweden (2 times), Albania ( ! ), Denmark For euro2012: Denmark, Bosnia-Herzegovina For 2014WCQ: Russia, Northern Ireland, Israel (2 times) http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/cronaldo-intlg.html That was with him playing. With as main difference of course that Portugal qualified in all instances.
Let's be fair, the goal against Borussia Dortmund is not so relevant. Cristiano was terrible in both games. And in the second game, Modric was really decisive against Manchester United, not Cristiano.
Right and that's the key difference. I'm not saying it all comes down to CR7, or that Portugal not qualifying for 98' comes down to Figo, but fact is, CR7 has performed when necessary to lead his team, even if it is only in the play-off round. When Portugal was down against Northern Ireland, CR7 came out with a hat trick to win. He scored all 4 goals against Sweden. Figo has had great moments for Portugal, but CR7 has undoubtedly had more individual brilliance in his international career than Figo.
well firstly it's your rating and please it's not like I critisize but more like WONDER of your criteria in rating! I just do not see how Zidane 98/2000, Figo 2000-01, Basten 88,92, and even G Best 68 had better peak year than Ronaldo 97, 98 , or Zico 81, 82/ You might say in general achievement and career longevity (or simply based on popular votes) ... that constituted your list. Thats' fine. But you mentioned of their "peak" years , and that's totally a different story. For example: - Zidane 98 was generally below Ronaldo 98 surely, until his ONE FINAL WC game (!) = PROOF: Ronaldo won best player at WC98 (over Zidane) , Ronaldo won SerieA best player (over Zidane) and won MVP of UEFA/UCL (over Zidane) - Fig0 2000 or 2001 was just ONE class LOWER than Any best year of Ronaldo and Zico - period (not same talent breadth to start with) - G.Best 68 was his ONLY great year, but outside his UCL his regular EPL season was not as impressive as Ronaldo 97 (surely) - Baten 88, was all about Euro tournament. I am not sure if 1 Euro 88 is bigger than ronaldo won 1 Copa97 + 1confed97 ? (with clearly better stats in gaols and assists). Out of that, Ronaldo got 67goals/70games whole calendar year (from clubs,to NT to friendly) was much more impressive then the whole year 88 of Basten. Basten 92 would only be comparable to Ronaldo 2002 no more no less. ....
for me there tare three "class" of PEAK season: 1- "Phenomenon" seasons: Puskas 53, 60 Di Stefano 5758 59, Pele 58,59,61, 62, 64,65, Garrincha 59,62 , Best 68 , Eusebio 62,66, Cruijff 72,73,74, Beckenbauer 70,72 Zico 81,82, Platini84, Maradona 80,81, 86, ... Basten 88,89, Romario94, Ronaldo 97,98, Rivaldo 99, Ronaldinho 05,06, Messi 10,12, CR7 13 ... 2- "Topclass seasons" Pele 60,66,68,70 Best 69, Eusebio 64, Cruijff 70,71, (as reference) .... Basten 92, Platini 83, 85, Zidane 98, 00, 02 Figo 00,01 , rivaldo 01,02, Romario 93,02, Batistuta 95, Ronaldo 96,02, 03... Ronaldinho 04, Henry 04,06, Kaka 05,07, Xavi 10, Messi 09, 11,13 , CR7 09,11,12 3- " Good Worldclass seasons" Many ... countless ... like Shearer 96, Henry 02, Nedved 03, Sheva 04, Canavaro 06, Sneijder10, Forlan 10, Iniesta 12, Ribery 13,
NOTE - I'm not equating peak form and peak seasons to be the same thing. James, I know sometimes you like to tell people to 'read well' so I'll do the same to you if that's ok (to be honest, I can't blame you as my posts could be hard to follow I suppose). Anyway, I've bolded the bits to re-read. I definately wasn't making a list of which players had the best peak seasons, and not even 100% which players were best at their absolute peak I suppose. I do know there will be some overlap though, and I also respect your views if you'd change the order a bit even on general peak form rather than peak seasons. Using Ronaldo and Van Basten as examples to answer: Yes, if I was rating peak years as a whole body of work then Ronaldo's 1997 would be above any year by MVB probably (but for example in 1988 Van Basten spent quite a large amount of time injured early in the year so his year cannot compare as a whole anyway). I think when assessing the abilities of the players I would consider that MVB was more complete as a centre-forward - better at holding the ball up, laying if off to team-mates, headers etc. I also think it's fair to say he was a bit more efficient as a goalscorer - a bit better finishing chances created by others and he was better in terms of variety of finishes I'd say. Also, I think his goalscoring records for the time in Serie A and the European Cup were exceptional and it's hard to compare them to Ronaldo's in La Liga even let alone players in modern La Liga (but I don't think Ronaldo had it easy - clearly there were a lot of robust and many unfair tackles/challenges being made on him). Van Basten also had great skills so was not only a penalty box player; Ronaldo stood out more for being able to run with the ball from outside the box of course, but Van Basten was still excellent at it at times and even moreso at Ajax than later in that respect. He could definately perform vs the best teams to a great level too - the video clip below shows in it's few minutes a couple of examples of his class on top of his goal in the Real Madrid game and the commentator praises his display (although he only got 1 goal): Puck posted Euro 88 performances by MVB earlier of course, so here is the one vs England again: Of course, Ronaldo could be dangerous and effective vs the best teams too: Obviosly Ronaldo did great in CA97 for example, although probably that competition was 'easier' than the 1988 Euros and MVB's gpg rate and general level was great in that. As for Figo, if only he had a half-decent striker to finish the chances: Oh wait a minute.... No, I'm only joking and to be fair even in that game we can see Ronaldo was key to the win with 2 goals! Not great footage, but this game was a great one for Figo I remember and we can see his influence in the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSBN26iBU8c Anyway, I did actually put Figo one level below Zico, Ronaldo (although only a couple of places) but I guess you meant a bigger/more clear level below....
Copy and paste from above post to embed video: Not great footage, but this game was a great one for Figo I remember and we can see his influence in the clip: Anyway, I did actually put Figo one level below Zico, Ronaldo (although only a couple of places) but I guess you meant a bigger/more clear level below....
Going back to 97, this one was also great for Figo, with no Ronaldo available: Anyway, for him I do feel it's a case of his inherant class and the fact he was such a good dribbler and such a good passer/crosser - great combination for a winger and sometimes AM.
It does seem common to have two different perspectives when comparing Figo to C.Ronaldo anyway: http://www.goallegacy.net/t25240p18-luis-figo-vs-cristiano-ronaldo (that was over a year ago I should say to be fair - but anyway the arguments are clear from both sides although in summary I'm sure we all can see and agree CR7 is a more relentless and capable goalscorer while Figo got more involved in the build-up and was more creative - it's how we interpret that that differs I suppose).
Mmmm yes. Would you agree though that those goals against N-Ireland and Sweden were well-serviced to him? Of course he deserves praise for capitalizing on the chances he got but it isn't exactly 'Ronaldo + 10 lunatics'. Same for Figo ofc. Maybe you're right that C. Ronaldo has been more decisive with goals and assists as Figo ever was (though I'd Figo give the edge for the actual tournaments as you know). What I wanted to point out though is that Portugal with prime Ronaldo also lost points against 'dwarf teams' - even a bit more in some campaigns. But unlike in 1998, they were not punished for these 'unacceptable losses'. Everything else has been said before basically so I do not want to repeat the same discussion again. It's just the points lost against minnow teams.