[Once again, you are quite welcome, "PDG". Probably the first thing to remember in trying to compare Finney v. Matthews is that when you look at their careers from back-to-front they were almost completetely different types of players: Finney played frequently in both wide forward positions. But, he also starred for both PNE & England as an "orthodox" inside-forward, the "upfield"-type of I-F & as a "withdrawn" centre-forward. Just LMK if any of you need me to compare Matthews' attacking/playing style to Finney w/Matthews as the "chalk-on-yer-boots"-type of R-W... @ England level Matthews was one of the KEY figures in makiing Finney a legend for the Three Lions. As a highly effective "touchline-hugger" of a wide-man; Matthews was VERY good at pulling both the opposition defence's attention and players over to his side of the pitch while the "flying column" No.11 (Eric Brook, Finney, Jimmy Mullen, Bill Perry) "barnstormed" into the opposition's danger area while they hopefully weren't paying attention.]
Thanks Roy - if you do want to do a comparison between Matthews and Finney as wingers that'll be very interesting. As I think the link you provided for Blackburn's Clayton the other day mentions on one of the match summaries, it seems Finney and Matthews were good friends but that Finney did prefer the right wing position. I know they had some very good results in the same England team though and that factor of Matthews staying out wide and Finney getting more chance to move into the middle could have been a big asset then.
This is a Finney v. Ryan Giggs thread fr. a PNE fan site; but you can get a rough idea of how Finney approached both wing positions: http://www.pne-online.net/forum/showthread.php?72768-Tom-Finney-v-Ryan-Giggs
Well Pele once claimed "G.Best was absolutely the "BEST"" .. () Anyhow, I agree about Platini shall be selected in any Brazil NT starting XI Note that I said Platini is not the same level as of Pele/Maradona ... but he could very well compete a place with the likes Didi, Zico, Rivelino and Socrates in midfield - so Pele's comment is not exaggerated at all .
Once again, PDG made a very good effort to continue his list ... However just a general comment on HOW PUBLIC VIEW exert on certain players : 1-It's SO SAD to see Maldini in (so high) in TOP20 (SO OVERATED) while the likes Thuram, D.Santos, and FACHETTI were way below 80'th . In talent and effectiveness of the games, Maldini had nothing better than Thuram, D.Santos and certainly worse than Scirea, N.Santos, Carlos Alberto amd arguably Fachetti 2- Some players in recent times got more merit than what they had done in real pitch: Uwe Seeler, Gerson, Dzajic, Socrates, Liedhom, Carlos Alberto ... were LOSING out of the TOP100 to the likes ... Nedved, Sheva, Xavi and Eto'o
This is a review of "The Perfect 10" by Gary Imlach of The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/jun/03/featuresreviews.guardianreview20?INTCMP=SRCH
[You're quite welcome and thank you for the kind words, mate. !! Happy New Year to you & yours BTW...]
Maybe also Krol, who had an excellent pass. If you compare this list with all time lists mentioned on rsssf and also other lists it seems that in the internet age some re-evaluation took place. I'm undecided whether that is a good or bad thing. Someone like George Best, Charlton and Müller seems to have received a huge upgraded among the internet folks. It is very good to see lists from before the internet age. Why do you think Nedved is overrated?
Yeah Krol was some how underated by many .. agreed I never said Nedved is overated .. I ust mentioned him as among the bunch of very god players in recent times that people (internet time?) watched more and so they were highly rated ... Surely Nedved (and Xavi , Iniesta) was no better than Uwe Seeler and Socrates - if not worse (by my book) YET the rating is so much different between them. Maybe Carlos Alberto D Santos, Fachetti were among those of ancient time compared to maldini. However, I can not understand why people rated Maldini so high versus Thuram of same era. for me, as a fullback Maldini might edge Thuram a bit, but as a CB (of their later stage) Thuram was certainly better ... Maldini was caught miserable several times as CB, thanks to his partnership with Nesta
Interestingly there is a difference between those players with the different voting methods. When I show the original method voting table after the next update it will show (and did show last time a few pages back) the older players Socrates and Seeler ahead of the 3 recent/current ones. But the top 30 voting has Socrates behind those 3 and Seeler is only an honourable mention. There aren't very many differences at the top of the standings with the different methods, but lower down there are some notable differences like this. It seems that many voters have put Seeler and/or Socrates between 31 and 50 on their vote, while Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved have less votes but have impressed some voters enough to get some placings in a top 30 or two. I don't think the top 30 votes will have always favoured the younger players (but I haven't checked thoroughly) although in the case of these players they have. Socrates does have a vote at number 24 coming up which will put him level with Nedved by my calculations on the top 30 voting table, and comfortably ahead of all the mentioned players on the top 50 voting table. The top 30 voting table will be updated today, and the top 50 one maybe today or maybe soon after. I don't know which method is the best, and apologies if it's confusing to follow now, but I thought the top 30 voting would highlight the players that at least some of us rate very highly indeed as opposed to many people rating quite highly so I think it's a useful/interesting alternative system. We could go the other way and have everyone select a top 100 but that's too much work for me! Showing the results of just top 10 votes might be interesting but there wouldn't be very many players understandably (although World Soccer's century vote using top 10's did result in 400-500 players albeit with many more voters with some not being very 'honest' or informed perhaps, and I think the IFFHS poll may have been with top 10's although the details are unclear - anyway the European vote provided over 100 players and the South American one had around 50).
In fact, he is always underrated. In all-time lists he always ranks below the likes of Passarella, Scirea and so on. I agree about Xavi and Iniesta. One trick ponies. That makes it special too that they win so much. Nedved is however one of the best dynamic midfielders ever and was instrumental for his national team. I also feel he was for more years among the top as Socrates. Socrates was good but Nedved his performances on international level were better with a less spectacular team. It also helps that Nedved his type was rare whereas good playmakers aren't so rare. Thuram was one of the main stars of WC1998, Maldini has always been a borderline role player. Saw a few days back again this video passing by. Assists with left foot, assist with overhead kick... Also look at the subtlety and variety of the passes. Has any player today the same technical mastery as Zidane or Bergkamp? Or Asanovic or Prosinecki even? Despite all money flowing around at the elite level, in the 'big four' countries, the technical level has not become better. Second tier countries are destroyed by the Bosman ruling and the new 'baby Champions League' is also only open and intended for nurture the prospects of the big clubs from the big nations.
Top 30 voting standings after puertorricane's vote: 1 Pele 916 2 Diego Maradona 883 3 Johan Cruyff 853 4 Alfredo Di Stefano 786 5 Franz Beckenbauer 747 6 Ferenc Puskas 719 7 Michel Platini 664 8 Garrincha 648 9 Ronaldo 584 10 Zinedine Zidane 560 11 Eusebio 555 12 Zico 550 13 George Best 503 14 Gerd Muller 470 15 Marco van Basten 415 16 Bobby Charlton 407 17 Lev Yashin 320 18 Romario 292 19 Paolo Maldini 247 20 Lothar Matthaus 210 21 Franco Baresi 184 22 Roberto Baggio 181 23 Lionel Messi 172 24 Didi 167 25 Ronaldinho 165 26 Bobby Moore 127 27 Stanley Matthews 126 28 Jose Manuel Moreno 103 29 Michael Laudrup 91 30 Ruud Gullit 89 31 Giussepe Meazza 83 32 Zizinho 77 33 Roberto Rivelino 76 34 Dino Zoff 63 35 Leonidas 56 36= Matthias Sindelar 48 36= Thierry Henry 48 38 Paolo Rossi 45 39 Dennis Bergkamp 43 40 Roberto Carlos 41 41 Gianni Rivera 39 42= Luis Figo 34 42= Rivaldo 34 44 George Weah 33 45= Duncan Edwards 29 45= Kenny Dalglish 29 47 Samuel Eto'o 27 48 Gunnar Nordahl 24 49 Kazimierz Deyna 22 50= Nilton Santos 21 50= Andres Iniesta 21 50= Josef Bican 21 50= Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 21 54= Raymond Kopa 20 54= Cristiano Ronaldo 20 54= Dejan Savicevic 20 57= Ladislao Kubala 19 57= Gabriel Batistuta 19 57= Fritz Walter 19 60 Gianluigi Buffon 17 61= Hector Scarone 16 61= Juan Schiaffino 16 63= Gunter Netzer 15 63= Jurgen Klinsmann 15 65= Tom Finney 14 65= Daniel Passarella 14 65= Matthias Sammer 14 65= Frank Rijkaard 14 65= Romerito 14 70= Arsenio Erico 13 70= Falcao 13 70= Carlos Alberto 13 70= Hugo Sanchez 13 74= Xavi 12 74= Hristo Stoichkov 12 74= Mario Kempes 12 77= Peter Schmeichel 11 77= Jozsef Bozsik 11 77= Florian Albert 11 80= Eric Cantona 9 80= Jairzinho 9 80= Pavel Nedved 9 80= Socrates 9 84= Kevin Keegan 8 84= Gyorgy Sarosi 8 84= Sandor Kocsis 8 84= Cafu 8 88= Andriy Shevchenko 7 88= Elias Figueroa 7 88= Cesar Cueto 7 88= Just Fontaine 7 92= John Charles 6 92= Teofilo Cubillas 6 92= Gheorghe Hagi 6 92= Kaka 6 92= Jan Ceulemans 6 92= Carlos Valderrama 6 98= Junior 5 98= Bruno Conti 5 100= Denis Law 4 100= Adolfo Pedernera 4 100= Djalma Santos 4 100= Lilian Thuram 4 100= Jose Nasazzi 4 105= Jimmy Johnstone 3 105= Valentino Mazzola 3 105= Arthur Friedenreich 3 105= Sandro Mazzola 3 105= Jari Litmanen 3 105= Alberto Spencer 3 111= Oleg Blokhin 2 111= Luigi Riva 2 111= Giacinto Facchetti 2 111= Nandor Hidegkuti 2 115= Francesco Totti 1 115= Zbigniew Boniek 1 Honourable mentions below: HM's (counting as those between 31-50 on full votes): Johan Neeskens Raul Dragan Dzajic Robert Pires Fernando Redondo Omar Sivori Luis Suarez Miramontes Tostao Enzo Francescoli Gordon Banks Uwe Seeler Francisco Gento Sepp Maier Oliver Kahn Fabio Cannavaro Gary Lineker Ryan Giggs Piet Keizer Edgar Davids Mario Zagallo Domingos Da Guia Bebeto Careca Leandro Ubaldo Fillol Jorginho Gaetano Scirea Hector Chumpitaz Alessandro Nesta Deco Berti Vogts Arjen Robben Claudio Gentile Demetrio Albertini Wesley Sneijder Roberto Donadoni Marco Tardelli Ian Rush Laurent Blanc Ruud van Nistelrooy David Trezeguet Jose Leandro Andrade Ernst Ocwirk Nils Liedholm Preben Elkjaer Gunnar Gren Telmo Zarra Gerson Wolfgang Overath Rob Rensenbrink Jay Jay Okocha Roger Milla Alessandro Del Piero Marcel Desailly Bryan Robson Rene Higuita Abedi Pele Hugo Sotil Neymar Rafael Marquez
I will come back and update the top 50 standings within the next weeks or months, but as it'll take a while to type out again and present it in a better way I'll leave it for a while at least. Meanwhile I didn't change my ranking again! The only things I might adjust would be the groupings - possibly a couple of old centre-forwards going up 1 each as I feel I could have under-appreciated them a tad (Tommy Lawton could be into the 84-103 group and therefore I could see him as a possibility to have in my top 100 especially if considering longevity and high level football a little more might go against some in that grouping; while Gunnar Nordahl could along with another old-timer Fritz Walter nudge up a grouping too so into a 104-132 group according to my estimations). So basically my ranking stays unchanged, but I did have a think about which ones on the same basis of mainly peak form I'd list next and I came up with this as my attempt at present: Players that would possibly join the final group in my previous list and would certainly be among the top candiadates for a next group if not (161-163) Alain Giresse (France) Roger Piantoni (France) Gyorgy Sarosi (Hungary) Players that could well be in my top 200 (164-190) - some old-timers very difficult to assess but swayed by reputation to think they'd be at least top 200 Manuel Amoros (France) Jose Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) Georgi Asparouhov (Bulgaria) Igor Belanov (Soviet Union) Ferenc Bene (Hungary) Laurent Blanc (France) Oleg Blokhin (Soviet Union) Fabio Cannavaro (Italy) Mario Coluna (Portugal) Marcel Desailly (France) Samuel Eto'o (Cameroon) Giacinto Facchetti (Italy) Alan Hansen (Scotland) Jimmy Johnstone (Scotland) Kevin Keegan (England) Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina) Johnny Rep (Netherlands) Dominique Rocheteau (France) Bernd Schuster (Germany) Alan Simonsen (Denmark) Omar Sivori (Argentina) Wesley Sneijder (Netherlands) Ruud van Nistelrooy (Netherlands) Pietro Vierchowod (Italy) Ricardo Zamora (Spain) Branko Zebec (Yugoslavia) Zito (Brazil) Players that might be in or close to the top 200 (191-220 - easily there could be another 30 names I could name instead including some more old-timers I'm lacking info on, then there could be another 30 including some I didn't fully appreciate from my lifetime etc etc but these are ones I feel are in contention anyway personally) Abedi Pele (Ghana) Jose Altafini (Brazil/Italy) Bebeto (Brazil) Zvonimir Boban (Croatia) Lars Bohinen (Norway) Alen Boksic (Croatia) Giampiero Boniperti (Italy) Paul Breitner (Germany) Tomas Brolin (Sweden) Careca (Brazil) Toninho Cerezo (Brazil) Clodoaldo (Brazil) Roberto Donadoni (Italy) Paulo Futre (Portugal) Steven Gerrard (England) Giussepe Giannini (Italy) David Ginola (France) Gunnar Gren (Sweden) Gyula Grosics (Hungary) Andrei Kanchelskis (Soviet Union; Russia/Ukraine/Lithuania) Yordan Letchkov (Bulgaria) Coen Moulijn (Netherlands) Marc Overmars (Netherlands) Mezsut Ozil (Germany) Ian Rush (Wales) Giussepe Signori (Italy) Josip Skoblar (Yugoslavia) Wim van Hanegem (Netherlands) Juan Sebastien Veron (Argentina) Bernard Vukas (Yugoslavia)
[Hearty applause on giving the likes of Lawton and Nordahl more credit and I also saw Walter in action personally; so if you happen to have any questions about him just LMK... BTW, I personally don't believe in these types of cross-positional/-role types of rankings; so you're free to rank the likes of Lawton from anywhere to No.1 to No.592 IMO.]
I remember reading some comments of yours about Walter on Xtratime Roy (on a V Mazzola/F Walter comparison thread I think) and along with other extra things I've picked up and the quality of his passing and setup play in the World Cups in the 50's becoming more evident to me, it possibly contributed to my idea that he could be worth a higher rating than I realised - moving him up a 'grouoing' is more of an after thought though but looking at it I felt both him and Nordahl (who I realise was initially a bit more mobile/agile than I realised too) could be put in the same broad category as other old legends like Moreno, Sindelar, Kocsis, Piola etc. Of course it's still a case with those players that I or anyone else from younger generations has a hard time getting a complete impresssion (and possibly the coverage of players was quite limited for older generations too outside their home country - I know you saw Walter and were very impressed though) You're right that it's hard to judge all these players against each other of course, but I feel it's an interesting exercise and when several different people cast their votes then any biases (including just different exposure to different players) will even themselves out a bit. Another way of looking at it in Lawton's case would be that I'd feel he could be the best number 9 type centre-forward (distinguising from Lineker, Greaves etc) in England's history although again of course it's only an estimation especially as I'm much more familiar with Shearer for example of course. Any particular goals or impressive bits of play that Walter produced and you remember clearly would be great to hear about but I'd understand if that is a big ask and memories are more hazy/general. Thanks for the kind offer anyway. Of course I'm sure for obvious reasons it's unlikely you saw much of him playing football in the early 40's (when I believe he was a great young player).
[I'm not attempting to criticise what you're attempting and I understand why you would engage in such an exercise: I'm simply saying that I just wouldn't do it personally. I was also trying to say that you're free to accept or simply disregard my opinion(s): I'm not going to get upset if you decide to rank Garrincha above Johnny Haynes or Walter cross-positionally...]
Yeah understood Roy - I wasn't trying to criticise any perceived criticism either because I didn't perceive any - just your preference for not making these lists yourself. Comparing a goalkeeper to a striker is never easy even in the same era of course, and managers I suppose do so in their decisions to buy certain players over others with their money but that will often be based on their particular needs for their team and who is available to them etc. btw I just PM'd Puck the Valentino Mazzola and Fritz Walter thread from Xtratime as he was interested in it. Thanks again.
1. Alberto Ohaco 2. Ferenc Puskas 3. Daniel Passarella 4. Imre Schlosser 5. Michel Platini 6. Jose Manuel Moreno 7. Johan Cruyff 8. Gyorgy Sarosi 9. Zinedine Zidane 10. Michael Laudrup 11. Oldrich Nejedly 12. Franz Beckenbauer 13. Gianluigi Buffon 14. Sandor Kocsis 15. Paolo Maldini 16. Alfredo Di Stefano 17. Cristiano Ronaldo 18. Pepi Bican 19. Pele 20. George Best 21. Luis Monti 22. Lothar Matthaus 23. Diego Maradona 24. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 25. Eddie Hapgood 26. Amadeo Carrizo 27. Ernst Ocwirk 28. Juan Alberto Schiaffino 29. Paulo Roberto Falcao 30. Paul Breitner 31. Zico 32. Gunnar Nordahl 33. Gerd Muller 34. Albert Shesternyov 35. Jose Leandro Andrade 36. Ronaldo 37. Wim van Hanegem 38. Lionel Messi 39. Eusebio 40. Raymond Kopa 41. Anton Schall 42. Oleh Blokhin 43. Elias Figueroa 44. Franco Baresi 45. Jose Nasazzi 46. Fritz Szepan 47. Dixie Dean 48. Matthias Sindelar 49. Kazimierz Deyna 50. Murtaz Khurtsilava 51. Steve Bloomer 52. Danny Blanchflower 53. Alan Hansen 54. Arsenio Erico 55. Billy Wright 56. Jozsef Bozsik 57. Gyula Zsengeller 58. Hristo Stoichkov 59. Ademir 60. Jose Santamaria 61. Ruud Krol 62. Kurt Hamrin 63. Paco Gento 64. Bimbo Binder 65. Igor Netto 66. Eduard Streltsov 67. Roberto Rivelino 68. Xavi 69. Vladimir Beara 70. Leovigildo Junior 71. Andriy Shevchenko 72. Toninho Cerezo 73. Florian Albert 74. Valentin Kozmich Ivanov 75. Teofilo Cubillas 76. Raul 77. Gianni Rivera 78. Velibor Vasovic 79. Gunther Netzer 80. Marco Tardelli 81. Jean Tigana 82. Javier Zanetti 83. Berti Vogts 84. Wlodzimierz Lubanski 85. Hector Scarone 86. Hector Chumpitaz 87. Cesar Cueto 88. Nilton Santos 89. Mario Coluna 90. Djalma Santos 91. Michel Preud'homme 92. Peter Schmeichel 93. Andrea Pirlo 94. Danny McGrain 95. Gaetano Scirea 96. Luis Figo 97. Thierry Henry 98. Jimmy Johnstone 99. Ubaldo Fillol 100. Ryan Giggs
Thanks Zeze1929 for the very interesting list. Definately over the next few weeks I will sort out the current results and include this vote.
Safet Sušić In his playing days, he operated as a playmaking attacking midfielder with superb passing ability and an excellent goalscoring record. In 2010, he was voted Paris Saint-Germain's best player of all time by French sport magazine France Football 's readers. In August 2012, he was voted the best foreign player of the French league of all time by French sport magazine France Football. He is strongly reputed to have been one of the finest European players of his generation. "If you were to rank Safet with the all-time greats, you would have to put him in at least the top 40", Gerd Müller (one of the most prolific goalscorers of all time) said. Safet Sušić v Michel Platini Passarella literally gets raped here lol. Sušić scores a hattrick against then World Cup champions Argentina.
The only thing I said at the start was that people shouldn't bias their lists by relegating Maradona or Pele far down the list while the other got a number 1 vote. So in other words don't try and give one of them loads more points than the other. Players like Cruyff could probably fit into this rule too. On this occasion, both Pele and Maradona are unusually low but there isn't a big gap between them and Cruyff is a bit above both. So yeah, I will add the vote...but I admit I am intrigued to hear the reasoning behind some of the placings and learn more about Alberto Ohaco! I notice Ohaco is included in Peru FC's 'players of the year' on a few occasions. Given the time he played, there won't be any footage to assess but there isn't a lot for Jose Manuel Moreno either and quite a few people have him high up their lists based on his reputation. Ohaco is described as one of Argentina's best ever players by some sources it seems so I'm not viewing this vote as a 'joke' - I don't think any of the players are 'joke' entries but quite a few are pretty old! I dunno - if Zeze was adding a vote to make the overall order more satisfacory to him then I'd ask him to consider alterting the vote as I'd prefer people didn't start doing that, but I'm not of a mind to say that it is not his honest vote unless he says so himself. I did wonder if 1929 relates to his date of birth (still not old enough to see Ohaco first hand but he could have been very aware of his legacy) and asked him by PM, but I see his profile says he is a coach so perhaps it is not his year of birth. Anyway in their time Ohaco, Scholsser etc were seen as greats of the era. All the other inclusions other than the old players are generally world class players so yeah I'm viewing the vote as generally 'interesting' rather than dodgy at this stage. If Zeze does want to elaborate on his main choices then that'd be good to see for us all though I think.