Ok it's a fair answer however I will wonder how you will put Iniesta and Xavi according to your criteria? They won almost everything even much more than Zidane? I said the reason Zidane was regarded as high as TOP10 all time for he appeared in big games (mostly final and semi) - not all the games per se a la Pele Ronaldo Eusebio Cruijff Muller. for me Zidane's aesthetic movement and his ball control served him well (win people's heart and mind) in comparison with other greats - even they were more talented IMO. Note that Zidane had showed his admiration toward 2 players (in skills) Maradona and Ronaldo at the end of his career. In his early years (teens) he tried to be Platini, and turned into Enzo (20+)
Yeah, I started to think differently about Zico recently certainly when compared with the names I rank above him and I also consider that he was a Brazilian, the league he played in and that a large number of his goals are penalty kicks (and free kicks of course). I still think it is hard to do and I don't claim it is perfect but just a few clarifying comments: I generally put in names of the color television era because I can rate these better I feel. Like you said 'you got to be certain'. I made an exception for Sindelar; I've always felt he is rather underrated. Maybe I put Nordahl and Albert too high but both are generally forgotten. Nordahl had a long an prolific career and I started to feel that he was also skilful (also Wilkes said this!). Florian Albert had two very good world cups as forward (not many forwards can say this I think) and I like his natural style. It is hard to rate defenders and defensive midfielders. I do feel that they should be rated lower as attacking oriented players though. Eventually I only found space for including Beckenbauer and Rijkaard. I like the versatility and elegant style of Rijkaard and as I said before, I did not want to include more than three Dutch players! Do you know maybe another elegant defensive player besides Beckenbauer and Rijkaard who contributed to the attack as well? I thought about Tigana too. I also asked another question to you before: do you know perhaps whether Finney was seen as less charismatic/charming as Matthews in his time?
Thanks Puck for the reply. btw I just finished the top 30 standings update but on that page "Big Soccer is not responding", so maybe I'll try again tomorrow if it doesn't unfreeze itself soon as I think if I "recover webpage" I'll lose what's in the text box and I didn't yet copy it (I was just about to after I did the final thing which was deleting Boniek off the HM's list!). Anyway, interesting reply - other players I thought maybe you'd 'downgraded' in your mind might be Best and perhaps Rivelino? Wheras apart from Laudrup, maybe Deyna and even Garrincha might have gone up a bit in your assessment? I think Tigana was certainly elegant, but I don't really see him as a defensive player or even a defensive midfielder. He qualifies though if he's classed as such and also Cerezo who's a player you admire I know and could be counted as a DM arguably. Bobby Moore with his passing and Laurent Blanc with his dribbling I would say too and possibly Maxime Bossis too? Anyway, assuming the page is frozen and I don't update tonight I can reveal that Netzer entered the top 30 voting table at just below 60th, and Florian Albert a few places lower. Nedved, Ceulemans, Litmanen and finally Boniek in joint 109th with 1 point are also new entries .
[This is a profile and "scouting report" on Finney from BS.com member and fellow Finney eyewitness, Tom Clare: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/for-dark-savante-tom-finney.589137/ I actually saw Finney and Matthews play both together and against one another many times; so if you happen to have any questions just LMK...]
I didn't know if Rivera had also gone up in your assessment Puck as he's obviously a legend and until today I hadn't a gauge on where you might place him compared to others really, but he could be another you've been more impressed with the further you researched him perhaps...
TBH I was always impressed by his abilities. I think he had a good level for many years. Maybe his club wasn't always clean but he played good for many years, even at his very last season which ended with a championship.
Oh thanks Roy - I was just about to answer Puck as I left the part about Finney out of my reply above! The link you posted the other day to show Ronnie Clayton's England games might be relevant too (it was an Englandonline page I think wasn't it?) as it had a passage describing Finney as "possibly the greatest English player in the immediate post-war years - Matthews was the fans favourite but Finney was nearly as good a dribbler, was more complete and was such a hardworker" - that's my memory of the quote not a direct copy but it was something like that. Puck, I know that Matthews reputation is said to be higher outside of England wheras inside there was more of a debate about who was the better winger and for a time which of them should play on the right wing for England (before Finney started playing on the left). Matthews, as the Wizard of the Dribble. is more of a mythical figure (I don't mean unreal but famous/legendary) and maybe the fact he starred before the war as well as after is a factor...? I'm not sure of all the reasons, but hopefully Roy has a few ideas too.
I suppose Patrick Vieira was also in his prime for Arsenal an elegant player though it wasn't his main asset, and of course Redondo comes to mind as an elegant DM/CM Puck. I did put a few such players in my list around the middle of my top 100 as I think players that are great defensively and going forwards too are very valuable as they are not just DM's but they do have defensive prowess. Gullit is similar but it's more of a case with him that he could play to a great standard in multiple positions and not so much because he was an expert CM/box-to-box midfielder. As a sweeper he was an elegant and talented one though of course. John Charles is similar in the sense that he could be either a great attacker or a great defender too, but and Roy might correct me, I don't believe he played as a midfielder.
Oh I had a brainfreeze and forgot to mention Gaetano Scirea as an elegant defensive player, and he's a prime example I think (sure there are a few others not mentioned though that'd be good examples). He did contribute to the attack too of course, although not so regularly as Beckenbauer.
Thanks for all your replies. Good calls indeed! Cerezo is indeed someone I rate highly. Did not see Vieira or Redondo as defensive players though but I agree they were elegant at times. Yes, I already thought about upgrading Deyna but the advanced WC stats thread convinced me even more. I did not downgrade Rivelino though. I started to appreciate Laudrup more indeed because I got more grip on his international career with Denmark. I think it is excellent and generally consistent. In that respect it is good to consider that his ratio degraded after his prime. At the age of 31 it was 34 goals in 85 games, a very good ratio. At the age of 34 it was degraded to 37 in 104 games - and even then he had a good tournament at 1998WC with 2 assists (and all star team selection) and at euro96 he had also an assist. This remains a classic:
I agree with what you said, but you get my point really? Do you agree? However, there are lists. Cruyff did not win the World Cup, for example, and is among the first. It is an incoherence? I do not know. I put a player because he was very important and very good even without winning so many titles. Now, in comparison Zidane, Platini, where they are on the same level (Platini many consider a better player and I believe), I was under the criteria of the World Cup. Xavi and Iniesta I really forgot. They deserve place on my list. I would not put players currently playing ... I just put, but it gives rise to these weights. It is much easier and just compare careers of those who have stopped or who is at the end (Ronaldinho, Henry).
Well it depends on how people put up with their criteria or if any? For me perform great in big games is "NECESSARY" while winning is "SUFFICIENT" or more complete. Cruijff did great at WC74, and he lost in the final as a "whole team" performance, not totally his fault - in fact he won the PK as the only goal scored for Holland. Maybe he should do more ? but obviuosly WC performance is not the only great event he perform. Cruijff got an "extra curricular " in his resume that no other players got : a COACH on the pitch. That extinction made his name often in TOP3 just below Pele/Maradona much more than his WC performacne, I think. Platini, Zico were both better player than Zidane (if we consider all aspects of the game) but they both lacked of the WC medal along with a great performance there. At least Platini got the Euro84 performance as his savior in the ranking - but not for Zico (who spent most his time in Brazil and only got 1 great intercontinental cup 82 and 3 great games at WC82 as short proof to public opinion) In the other hand, Mathauss, Xavi Iniesta or Canavaro won the WC due to their whole team performance rather than themselves winning it or main figure, MVP to win it! Mathauss 90 was better than Xavi or Iniesta WC10 and Canavaro at WC06 though
Current standings for the 'top 30' voting after Puck's top 30: (Consensus top 30 in bold; up to 50th including ties in italics) 1 Pele 886 2 Diego Maradona 854 3 Johan Cruyff 827 4 Alfredo Di Stefano 758 5 Franz Beckenbauer 722 6 Ferenc Puskas 697 7 Michel Platini 643 8 Garrincha 625 9 Ronaldo 557 10 Eusebio 546 11 Zinedine Zidane 536 12 Zico 530 13 George Best 503 14 Gerd Muller 462 15 Marco van Basten 411 16 Bobby Charlton 407 17 Lev Yashin 320 18 Romario 292 19 Paolo Maldini 230 20 Lothar Matthaus 205 21 Franco Baresi 184 22 Roberto Baggio 181 23 Didi 167 24 Lionel Messi 161 25 Ronaldinho 149 26 Bobby Moore 127 27 Stanley Matthews 126 28 Jose Manuel Moreno 103 29 Michael Laudrup 91 30 Ruud Gullit 89 31 Giussepe Meazza 83 32 Zizinho 77 33 Roberto Rivelino 76 34 Dino Zoff 63 35 Leonidas 56 36 Matthias Sindelar 48 37 Thierry Henry 47 38 Paolo Rossi 45 39 Dennis Bergkamp 43 40 Gianni Rivera 39 41 Luis Figo 34 42 George Weah 33 43 Rivaldo 32 44= Duncan Edwards 29 44= Kenny Dalglish 29 46 Gunnar Nordahl 24 47= Roberto Carlos 22 47= Kazimierz Deyna 22 49= Nilton Santos 21 49= Andres Iniesta 21 49= Josef Bican 21 49= Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 21 53= Raymond Kopa 20 53= Cristiano Ronaldo 20 53= Dejan Savicevic 20 56= Ladislao Kubala 19 56= Gabriel Batistuta 19 56= Fritz Walter 19 59 Gianluigi Buffon 17 60= Hector Scarone 16 60= Juan Schiaffino 16 62 Gunter Netzer 15 63= Tom Finney 14 63= Daniel Passarella 14 63= Matthias Sammer 14 63= Frank Rijkaard 14 67= Arsenio Erico 13 67= Falcao 13 69= Xavi 12 69= Hristo Stoichkov 12 71= Peter Schmeichel 11 71= Jozsef Bozsik 11 71= Florian Albert 11 74= Eric Cantona 9 74= Jairzinho 9 74= Samuel Eto'o 9 74= Pavel Nedved 9 78= Kevin Keegan 8 78= Gyorgy Sarosi 8 78= Sandor Kocsis 8 78= Cafu 8 82= Andriy Shevchenko 7 82= Elias Figueroa 7 82= Cesar Cueto 7 82= Just Fontaine 7 86= John Charles 6 86= Teofilo Cubillas 6 86= Gheorghe Hagi 6 86= Kaka 6 86= Jan Ceulemans 6 91= Junior 5 91= Bruno Conti 5 93= Denis Law 4 93= Adolfo Pedernera 4 93= Djalma Santos 4 93= Lilian Thuram 4 93= Jose Nasazzi 4 98= Jimmy Johnstone 3 98= Valentino Mazzola 3 98= Arthur Friedenreich 3 98= Sandro Mazzola 3 98= Jari Litmanen 3 103= Oleg Blokhin 2 103= Mario Kempes 2 103= Luigi Riva 2 103= Giacinto Facchetti 2 103= Nandor Hidegkuti 2 103= Socrates 2 109= Carlos Alberto 1 109= Francesco Totti 1 109= Zbigniew Boniek 1 Honourable mentions below: HM's (counting as those between 31-50 on full votes): Jurgen Klinsmann Johan Neeskens Raul Dragan Dzajic Robert Pires Fernando Redondo Hugo Sanchez Omar Sivori Luis Suarez Miramontes Tostao Enzo Francescoli Gordon Banks Uwe Seeler Francisco Gento Sepp Maier Oliver Kahn Fabio Cannavaro Gary Lineker Ryan Giggs Piet Keizer Edgar Davids Mario Zagallo Domingos Da Guia Bebeto Careca Leandro Ubaldo Fillol Jorginho Gaetano Scirea Hector Chumpitaz Alessandro Nesta Deco Berti Vogts Arjen Robben Claudio Gentile Demetrio Albertini Wesley Sneijder Roberto Donadoni Marco Tardelli Ian Rush Laurent Blanc Ruud van Nistelrooy David Trezeguet Jose Leandro Andrade Ernst Ocwirk Nils Liedholm Preben Elkjaer Gunnar Gren Telmo Zarra Gerson Wolfgang Overath Rob Rensenbrink Jay Jay Okocha Roger Milla Alessandro Del Piero Marcel Desailly Bryan Robson
I disagree a bit with you here. I think WC74 is a main reason why Cruijff ranks so high. When he retired in late 1978 (after farewell game) foreign press commentaries saw it as one of the best, if not the best, World Cup performances ever, and that with a country that was largely unknown and had an incoherent reputation (did not qualify between 1938 and 1974 for anything relevant besides Olympics - with amateur team). Indeed, it was also mentioned that he was like a coach on the field and off the field and what that mentioned for the rise to the top for his teams (2WC finals, euro semi-final etcetera). Also praised was the approach he stood for, an attack minded approach which contrasted with the 'defensive' 1960s - in European club football. His attack minded attitude (which broke with the past) and 'innovative' nature was mentioned. He was a bit seen as an innovator after his retirement. Last but not least, the foreign press commentaries mentioned how he belonged for 10 years among the best three/five players in the world, if not longer. His consistency and longevity for a forward was seen as a big plus, especially in a violent environment (La Liga had this reputation). Also his 'complete' abilities received praise, by Pelé for example. Pelé recalled the club friendly against him in 1974; Cruijff played as central/defensive midfielder and used #6. This shirt number is also visible on the pictures and Pelé recalled that as personal anecdote. However, history is usually not very kind for team-sport figures from smaller countries, esp. in the internet age. Then the people look back and tend to ignore some phases of their careers - and the rise to the top and familiarity. In this aspect I think that WC74 was the event that seals his place in the pantheon. Maradona in 1986 is generally seen as the solid number one but Garrincha, Pelé, Cruijff, Eusebio and a few others are often mentioned for the number two spot. Funny is though that he was clearly not at his very best shape during the 1974 World Cup. That said, with a bit more luck Platini had won two World Cups and if that had happened the world had looked differently. The margins are small.
I am not too sure of that, but even so, I might have different criteria for players ... In fact many had cursed on Cruijff after the final and blamed him as "impotent" besides a snaky Vogts that Holland lost the "obvious WC" handing to them (right before the final). I remember at time, almost 80% leaning to Holland winning that game! For me even Platini won 1 or 2 WC (same with Zidane) Cruijff had a different energy and charm *as player to be the "best of the bests" - not so much of Platini and Zidane nor Beckenbauer. For me both Platini and Zidane were a bit OVERATED versus their true talents per se. They could well be in TOP10 but not in my TOP5 in any cases. For me, there is quite a gap between Pele/Maradona/Cruijff to Platini/Zidane - and its not a small one!
I'll post my top 50 even though i hate these types of lists because they are bias, subjective and there is no way that anybody can say they saw every player they are ranking. I'm going by stories and for obvious reasons im rating the players i've seen play a lot higher than the ones i havent. Is not the same reading about a player than seeing it in person or in tv live. My top two mean a lot because of what they represented for every latin kid all over the world. They were the first world wide stars plus represented every poor kid all over latin america with the way they played and also how they spoke out, especially maradona. 1 Pele 2 Maradona 3 Di Stefano 4 Ronaldo 5 Cruyff 6 Beckenbauer 7 Zidane 8 Garrincha 9 Puskas (never seen one video of him but consensous and stories are that he was great) 10 Platini 11 Zico 12 Roberto Carlos 13 Samuel Eto 14 Maldini 15 Ronaldinho 16 Jurgen Klinsman 17 Zico 18 Hugo Sanchez 19 Carlos Alberto 20 Zico 21 Messi 22 Mario Kempes 23 Eusebio 24 Gerd Muller 25 Socrates 26 Valderrama 27 Matthaus 28 Van Basten 29 Alberto Spencer 30 Rivaldo 31 Thierry Henry 32 Ruud Gullit 33 Luis Figo 34 Romario 35 Elias Figueroa 36 George Weah 37 Rene Higuita 38 Rijkaard 39 Cronaldo 40 Teofilo Cubillas 41 Batistuta 42 Elias Figueroa 43 Raul 44 Hugo Sotil 45 Neymar 46 Roger Milla 47 Buffon 48 Maldini 49 Baggio 50 Xavi []__[]
Ok puertorricane, I will add your vote on for both the original top 50 voting and the top 30 voting (which favours those near the top of our lists wheras the top 50 standings show more players but also show those with a lot of votes between 31-50 in a higher position). I'll adjust the top 30 voting standings today, but maybe the top 50 standings will be a bit longer as I'm going to re-type the list out as it's getting a bit unreliable after so many copy and pastes and maybe different fonts etc; also PuckVanHeel might be adding to his list and naming some honourable mentions soon so I could tally the points after both of your top 50 votes rather than seperately maybe... If you do want to watch Puskas games then these are good choices (can only find highlights for the Real Madrid European Cup Finals at the moment but the England-Hungary game should be virtually all there):
Actually peurtoriccane, you have put Zico in 3 different positions so I just need you to confirm which position he should be in and insert another couple of players either at the bottom of your ranking or in 2 of those positions Zico is shown in if you did intend two different players to be there and left them out by mistake. Thanks.
I can see what you mean. The press commentaries were quite divided though. Some like Daily Telegraph were indeed very critical towards Cruyff and saw him as a 'wannabe legend' but others praised him and dared to criticize Berti Vogts ('The Sun' for example and also a half dozen of Italian publications). The interpretation and judgement of the press was mixed. I felt Daily Telegraph was the most critical of them all and for such a well-mannered quality paper they used some very harsh and strong language. 'Raw talent' is sometimes difficult to judge though. In some way you can say that Ronaldo and Van Basten had also an abundance of raw talent because they were still the best (if not the best) with malfunctioning joints and body parts, and heavy pain in their body. In some way they were still elegant too despite playing with serious permanent injuries. In a way you can say they had true talent too. Disagree though about Platini. You only have to watch the goals to see what kind of nice striker of the ball he was (IMO he was a better shooter overall as Maradona and arguably also Cruijff). Zidane looks nice on the goal compilation but somehow he never provided the same punch and blows. Though, his elegance is in a way also a raw talent. Very difficult! Look at the pics of the debut for the NT Completely in control and great balance. Seriously, Zidane even looks great, as a ballet dancer, on pictures. That is also talent in a way. Difficult.
For James, This book mentions a specific quote of Pelé in relation to Platini. Pelé said that he was "the only French player in history who would receive a place in the starting line-up in every Brazilian team. In any era and on any position he wants." So also Pelé came to the conclusion that he would receive a place in even the strongest Brazilian teams.
Oh ok thanks didnt notice, i moved a lot of players around and i guess i loss track of zico... i cant edit my post so put zico at 11 and add Julio Romero at 17 then you can move everybody up one spot and add Rafael Marquez at 50 []__[]
Ok thanks, I'll update the top 30 voting standings now based on that and then the original top 50 voting will be adjusted too in the new year. Julio Romero is Romerito (Julio Cesar Romero) of Paraguay I'm pretty sure but let me know if I'm wrong about that. I seem to remember he did go by the name of Romero in the 80's but I've seen him called Romerito too including in the Fifa 100 list I think.
Actually, I didn't think there were any more but Maldini and Figueroa also appear twice so you can add another two to your list. Also, can you just confirm if you want Maldini and Figueroa in the highest positions you listed them according to your first post (Maldini quite near the top for example). Thanks - I'll do all the updating in the new year rather than today now I think.
Once again thanks and put Abedi Pele at 42 and cafu at 48 in place of the repeated figueroa and maldini []__[]
Ok thanks - I'll quote this as your ranking when I come to tally up the scores: 1 Pele 2 Maradona 3 Di Stefano 4 Ronaldo 5 Cruyff 6 Beckenbauer 7 Zidane 8 Garrincha 9 Puskas 10 Platini 11 Zico 12 Roberto Carlos 13 Samuel Eto 14 Maldini 15 Ronaldinho 16 Jurgen Klinsman 17 Romerito 18 Hugo Sanchez 19 Carlos Alberto 20 Messi 21 Mario Kempes 22 Eusebio 23 Gerd Muller 24 Socrates 25 Valderrama 26 Matthaus 27 Van Basten 28 Alberto Spencer 29 Rivaldo 30 Thierry Henry 31 Ruud Gullit 32 Luis Figo 33 Romario 34 Elias Figueroa 35 George Weah 36 Rene Higuita 37 Rijkaard 38 Cronaldo 39 Teofilo Cubillas 40 Batistuta 41 Abedi Pele 42 Raul 43 Hugo Sotil 44 Neymar 45 Roger Milla 46 Buffon 47 Cafu 48 Baggio 49 Xavi 50 Rafael Marquez I can move Abedi Pele and Cafu down a place each if you let me know but I put them where they'd be if they were replacing the duplicated players after everyone was moving up a place basically as Marquez (replacement for one of the extra Zico's) is at the bottom. I guess like most of us you don't really have much between players in positions close to each other anyway but tell me if you do want Raul and Baggio each a place higher (otherwise I'll count the above as your ranking).