I just want to raise my flag to discuss ... as often it's just too difficult to put up a "formula" and "calculate" the points which again depends heavily on criteria! In general, wining trophies and individual skills + trophies should be considered seriously and reasonably! We can create certain criteria with points but when comes to "skills" it might become so "mechanics" ... For example (randomly speaking): - win WC 5points, topscorer WC +3points, and MVP WC + 5points ... - win Euro 4points , topscorer+3points, and MVP + 4points ... - or win UEFA CL 2points , topscorer +2 and MVP +3 alright ... there as "formula" but how we add points for Zico's freekick vs Cruijff or Pele? How do we add points for Garrincha's dribble against Platini or Di Stefano? How do we judge Rivelino/Laudrup/Didi vision vs Boby Charlton or Zidane? How do we rate Batistuta/Romario shooting skills vs Puskas or Muller? headache ...
It is always debatable. I think the offensive capabilities of Vogts are grossly overrated on this board but Dzajic was surely a good player. Also Rensenbrink was a very good player. In final against West Ham 1976: 2 goals + 2 assists Supercup against Bayern Munich: 2 goals + 2 assists [HERO!] Final against Hamburg 1977: 0 assists Final against Austria Wien 1978: 2 goals Supercup against Liverpool: 1 goal + 1 assist
Here 7 min video with close up images shot during a match http://www.sonuma.be/archive/robbie-rensenbrink-roi-de-la-technique
Updated HM's: HM's: Pavel Nedved Denis Law Josef Masopust Jimmy Greaves John Robertson Jean Tigana Jan Ceulemans Glenn Hoddle Pierre Littbarski John Barnes Enzo Scifo Claudio Caniggia Paul Gascoigne Gianfranco Zola Davor Suker Henrik Larsson David Beckham Johnny Rep Paul Breitner Ademir Marques de Menezes Angel Labruna Luis Monti Alberto Spencer Ricardo Zamora Paul van Himst Wlodzmierz Lubanski Abedi Pele Florian Albert Peter Shilton Tommy Lawton Ruud Krol Rinat Dasaev Neville Southall Dragan Stojkovic Fernando Hierro Jari Litmanen Silvio Piola Jose Emilio Santamaria Zoltan Czibor Alex James Roy Keane Obdulio Varela Danny Blanchflower Mario Coluna Billy Wright Raimundo Orsi Kurt Hamrin Oleg Blokhin Dixie Dean Gunter Netzer Patrick Vieira Brian Laudrup Thomas Hassler Gzregorz Lato Wim van Hanegem Vava Helmut Rahn Jean-Pierre Papin Allan Simonsen Tomas Brolin Andreas Brehme Rui Costa Antonio Sastre Julinho Stjepan Bobek Ferenc Deak
As a comparison, here are the players included in the top 16's of the Daily Mail and the producers of the two Youtube videos: 3 times Franz Beckenbauer George Best Bobby Charlton Johan Cruyff Alfredo Di Stefano Eusebio Garrincha Diego Maradona Pele Michel Platini Ferenc Puskas Ronaldo Zinedine Zidane 2 times Zico 1 time Paolo Maldini Lothar Matthaus Bobby Moore Gerd Muller Romario Marco van Basten Lev Yashin
Adjusted version of the analysis of comme and Peru FC's top 100's: Top 30 in both lists Pele Alfredo Di Stefano Diego Maradona Johan Cruyff Ferenc Puskas Franz Beckenbauer Garrincha Michel Platini Zico Ronaldo Zinedine Zidane Paolo Maldini Bobby Charlton Eusebio Gerd Muller Jose Manuel Moreno George Best Didi Lothar Matthaus Ruud Gullit Marco van Basten Lev Yashin Matthias Sindelar Top 30 in comme's list and top 50 in Peru's Franco Baresi Juan Schiaffino Bobby Moore Stanley Matthews Top 30 in Peru's list and top 50 in comme's Romario Roberto Baggio Giussepe Meazza Zizinho Roberto Rivelino Top 30 in comme's list and top 100 in Peru's Joszef Bozsik Nilton Santos Djalma Santos Top 30 in Peru's list and top 100 in comme's Ronaldinho Top 50 in both lists Luis Suarez Miramontes Raymond Kopa Sandor Kocsis Daniel Passarella Gianni Rivera Jose Leandro Andrade Top 50 in comme's list and top 100 in Peru's Ladislao Kubala Gunnar Nordahl Ernst Ocwirk Giacinto Facchetti Nils Liedholm Gaetano Scirea Francisco Gento John Charles Omar Sivori Top 50 in Peru's list and top 100 in comme's Dino Zoff Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Adolfo Pedernera Fritz Walter Rivaldo Elias Figueroa Top 100 in both lists Frank Rijkaard Uwe Seeler Thierry Henry Falcao Peter Schmeichel Dragan Dzajic Arsenio Erico Dixie Dean Ruud Krol Josef Bican Josef Masopust Tom Finney Michael Laudrup Jimmy Greaves Luis Monti Luis Figo Ricardo Zamora Kenny Dalglish Total in both lists - 75 players. Top 30 in Peru's list only Lionel Messi * Top 50 in Peru's list only Valentino Mazzola Leonidas Cristiano Ronaldo * Gyorgy Sarosi Top 100 in comme's list only Johan Neeskens Paul Breitner Nandor Hidegkuti Silvio Piola Jose Santamaria Zoltan Czibor Alex James Roy Keane Obdulio Varela Cafu Danny Blanchflower Marcel Desailly Ryan Giggs Roberto Carlos Mario Coluna Wolfgang Overath Billy Wright Berti Vogts Mumo Orsi Alessandro Nesta Kurt Hamrin Oleg Blokhin Gunter Netzer Peter Shilton Angel Labruna (All except Billy Wright in Peru's top 200 I think) Top 100 in Peru's list only Teofilo Cubillas Jairzinho Hector Scarone Tostao Gianluigi Buffon Xavi Gerson Gordon Banks Gabriel Batistuta Sandro Mazzola Hristo Stoichkov Socrates Enzo Francescoli Carlos Alberto Sepp Maier Dennis Bergkamp Just Fontaine Florian Albert Zbigniew Boniek Oliver Kahn (comme's ranking stops at 100 but these players can be found in his greatest X of all time countdowns - positional lists which contain all these players somewhere). * denotes not eligible for comme's ranking (under 28 at the time of his project)
What I don't get is that Krol only features in the HM list while Maldini, Baresi, Moore, Sammer, Facchetti and even Berti Vogts are miles over him. Also Desailly, Nesta and Scirea are way over him. That is funny because Krol played at a time in Italy when some of these names also played and he outperformed them (I would rank Scirea also over him though). Similarly, Baresi is apparently top 30 all time material while Koeman did not get a single vote at all. That is funny because the peak of those two overlapped - both were seen as the best two European liberos of their era (1987-1995) with Baresi having an edge. In other words: IMO the gap in the list is bigger than it was at that time. Also thanks for the comparison between Peru and comme his list. Confirms for me what I said; Peru showed a South American bias and comme as always a big Germanic bias.
Since I listed all the top 16's and reference their page numbers (except the last few which are the most recent) I don't think I'll post links to the full rankings as they should be easy enough to find and I think I'm right to say that the links wouldn't open up a single post in a new window like with the old Big Soccer anyway. So the main task I have left IIRC is to tally up the current scores for the top 30 voting method, and I'll do that now before lunch. Also, though I wanted to avoid a long argument about Larsson with schwuppe I could have given a couple of reasons why I did have him above Van Nistelrooy and Papin so I'll do that know and as expected I guess it is based on inherant playing capabilities: Basically I feel Larsson has a significant advatntage over Van Nistelrooy in terms of mobility. Versus Papin I'd say he was more comfortable on the ball. I think RVN and JPP had advantages in poaching/awareness around goal and spectacular shooting respectively, but I think these advantages may be more minimal/debateable. I don't mind schwuppe if you want to respond and give reasons why even with my approach you feel he should be below, but I guess those reasons are based around being more unproven at the highest levels and I do think we should leave the debate at that point as it's not going to be resolved as such. I did think that I perhaps owed you the explanation above though, which is the sort of thing that'd have been in my mind when selecting him above them...
Here's the top 30 voting method standings after United_xxx's vote and adjusted for the latest changes in Peru FC's vote: (United_xxx's 31-50 choices being close/'random' is maybe even more suitable for this method even though he did register a top 50 vote too and did number his choices - Puck, to clarify again when you do your top 30 I can cater for HM's between 31-50 also being included in a top 50 vote with points split between them and you could do two groups 31-40 and 41-50 if that was more suitable; just a top 30 is also fine though and would affect the standings below). 1 Pele 797 2 Diego Maradona 771 3 Johan Cruyff 747 4 Franz Beckenbauer 682 5 Alfredo Di Stefano 677 6 Ferenc Puskas 635 7 Michel Platini 587 8 Garrincha 581 9 Ronaldo 504 10 Eusebio 496 11 Zico 487 12 Zinedine Zidane 468 13 George Best 467 14 Gerd Muller 419 15 Marco van Basten 382 16 Bobby Charlton 365 17 Lev Yashin 319 18 Romario 268 19 Paolo Maldini 225 20 Lothar Matthaus 203 21 Roberto Baggio 175 22 Franco Baresi 170 23 Didi 147 24= Lionel Messi 136 24= Ronaldinho 136 26 Stanley Matthews 122 27 Bobby Moore 114 28 Jose Manuel Moreno 103 29 Ruud Gullit 89 30 Giussepe Meazza 83 31= Zizinho 71 31= Michael Laudrup 71 33 Roberto Rivelino 67 34 Dino Zoff 63 35 Leonidas 55 36 Thierry Henry 46 37 Paolo Rossi 45 38 Dennis Bergkamp 43 39 George Weah 36 40 Rivaldo 32 41 Gianni Rivera 31 42 Duncan Edwards 29 43 Matthias Sindelar 28 44 Luis Figo 25 45 Kenny Dalglish 24 46= Nilton Santos 21 46= Andres Iniesta 21 46= Josef Bican 21 49= Raymond Kopa 20 49= Cristiano Ronaldo 20 49= Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 20 49= Dejan Savicevic 20 53= Ladislao Kubala 19 53= Gabriel Batistuta 19 53= Fritz Walter 19 53= Roberto Carlos 19 57= Hector Scarone 16 57= Juan Schiaffino 16 59= Tom Finney 14 59= Daniel Passarella 14 59= Matthias Sammer 14 62 Arsenio Erico 13 63= Frank Rijkaard 12 63= Xavi 12 63= Kazimierz Deyna 12 63= Hristo Stoichkov 12 67= Falcao 11 67= Peter Schmeichel 11 67= Jozsef Bozsik 11 70= Eric Cantona 9 70= Andriy Shevchenko 9 70= Jairzinho 9 70= Samuel Eto'o 9 74= Kevin Keegan 8 74= Gyorgy Sarosi 8 74= Sandor Kocsis 8 74= Cafu 8 78= Elias Figueroa 7 78= Cesar Cueto 7 78= Gianluigi Buffon 7 78= Just Fontaine 7 82= John Charles 6 82= Teofilo Cubillas 6 82= Gunnar Nordahl 6 82= Gheorghe Hagi 6 82= Kaka 6 87= Junior 5 87= Bruno Conti 5 89= Denis Law 4 89= Adolfo Pedernera 4 89= Djalma Santos 4 89= Lilian Thuram 4 89= Jose Nasazzi 4 94= Jimmy Johnstone 3 94= Valentino Mazzola 3 94= Arthur Friedenreich 3 94= Sandro Mazzola 3 98= Oleg Blokhin 2 98= Mario Kempes 2 98= Luigi Riva 2 98= Giacinto Facchetti 2 98= Nandor Hidegkuti 2 98= Socrates 2 104= Carlos Alberto 1 104= Francesco Totti 1 HM's (counting as those between 31-50 on full votes): Jurgen Klinsmann Johan Neeskens Raul Dragan Dzajic Robert Pires Fernando Redondo Hugo Sanchez Omar Sivori Luis Suarez Miramontes Tostao Enzo Francescoli Gordon Banks Uwe Seeler Francisco Gento Sepp Maier Oliver Kahn Fabio Cannavaro Gary Lineker Ryan Giggs Piet Keizer Edgar Davids Mario Zagallo Domingos Da Guia Bebeto Careca Leandro Ubaldo Fillol Jorginho Gaetano Scirea Hector Chumpitaz Alessandro Nesta Deco Berti Vogts Arjen Robben Claudio Gentile Demetrio Albertini Wesley Sneijder Roberto Donadoni Marco Tardelli Ian Rush Laurent Blanc Ruud van Nistelrooy David Trezeguet Jose Leandro Andrade Ernst Ocwirk Nils Liedholm Preben Elkjaer Gunnar Gren Telmo Zarra Gerson Wolfgang Overath Rob Rensenbrink Zbigniew Boniek Jay Jay Okocha Roger Milla Alessandro Del Piero Marcel Desailly Bryan Robson So overall that method gives a few differences at the moment, but not much in the top 16.
I guess this works for Garrincha too? Your Yashin choice is probably better than changing Rasputin to "Lev Lev Lev Yashin, Russia's Golden Glove Machine"
yeah surely if we find theother song is a bit too sad ... and if youcan "sing along" that phrase it'll be nice haha
Ok, I'm yet again altering my own ranking a little after trying to eliminate any potential biases towards my 'era'. I did an experimental list, with the order within each group decided by era as follows: 1) Currently in peak - youngest first 2) Peaked up until 70's - oldest first 3) Peaked earlier in this century (but after 2001) - youngest first 4) Peaked in 80's - oldest first 5) Peaked between 95-01 - youngest first 6) Peaked between 88-94 - oldest first. I wouldn't be satisfied with just switching my ranking to that version though, as I wouldn't necessarily want to over-rule my choices automatically and even though I split my ranking into groups the players near the top of each group would be the ones I'd be considering most closely for the group above. Also I wouldn't want my ranking to be ordered in clumps of players from the same era's by default. So, next I aggregated that ranking with my latest ranking. Also, I made a few adjustments (eg 1 counting Rijkaard's prime as before '88 even though I'm not sure about whether it was as it was probably while playing in midfield at Milan - I wanted to keep him ahead of Vieira as I'd consciously made that choice before with the proven ability to play as a great centre-back the deciding factor, eg 2 doing the opposite with Lineker to keep him below Romario, eg 3 raising Schiaffino and Liedholm further than the aggregated results raised them partly because I've gradually seen and read more of them and been more convinced - I've always felt with the older players as Kylie would say: Well maybe not certain.... but as I choose to try and compare the players as if they were playing in the same era and less on a statistical/historical perspective I'm reluctant to include players too high up without a clear basis to do so - Liedholm is now the number 1 Swede on my list though, but others like Moreno and Bican could probably have their place decided by sticking a pin in my ranking although I feel a place just outside my top 100 is ok as both are so highly regarded either through world of mouth (moreso Moreno who I've also seen a few seconds of goalscoring action for!) or unparalleled stats (moreso Bican)). There were a few other similar adjustments but it's not worth going through them all. Anyway I'm about as satisfied with the ranking now as I'm going to be I think, and more satisfied with it than before the alterations. There are a few changes to make to the points accordingly, although my top 16 players are obviously the same ones (my 2nd group cuts off at 16) but with Di Stefano and Puskas going up a little. So this was my new aggregated then adjusted ranking when I'd finalised it: 1 - Pele (Brazil) 2 - Johan Cruyff (Netherlands) 3 - Diego Maradona (Argentina) 4 - Michel Platini (France) 5 - George Best (N.Ireland) 6 - Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina) +1 7 - Marco van Basten (Netherlands) -1 8 - Zinedine Zidane (France) 9 - Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) 10 - Eusebio (Portugal) 11 - Bobby Charlton (England) 12 - Ferenc Puskas (Hungary) +2 13 - Michael Laudrup (Denmark) -1 14 - Ronaldo (Brazil) -1 15 - Ronaldinho (Brazil) 16 - Zico (Brazil) 17 - Kenny Dalglish (Scotland) 18 - Bobby Moore (England) +1 19 - Lev Yashin (Soviet Union-Russia) +1 20 - Lionel Messi (Argentina) +1 21 - Luis Figo (Portugal) -3 22 - Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia-Montenegro) 23 - Roberto Baggio (Italy) 24 - Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands) 25 - Thierry Henry (France) +1 26 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany) +1 27 - Stanley Matthews (England) +5 28 - George Weah (Liberia) - 3 29 - Gerd Muller (Germany) +1 30 - Andriy Shevchenko (Ukraine) -2 31 - Tom Finney (England) +3 32 - Garrincha (Brazil) +3 33 - Lothar Matthaus (Germany) -4 34 - Franco Baresi (Italy) -3 35 - Ruud Gullit (Netherlands) +1 36 - Jurgen Klinsmann (Germany) -3 37 - Peter Schmeichel (Denmark) +1 38 - Paolo Maldini (Italy) -1 39 - Johan Neeskens (Netherlands) +1 40 - Gheorghe Hagi (Romania) -1 41 - Kaka (Brazil) 42 - Duncan Edwards (England) +8 43 - Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia-Serbia) +4 44 - Jairzinho (Brazil) +5 45 - Francesco Totti (Italy) -1 46 - Gordon Banks (England) +6 47 - Cafu (Brazil) -5 48 - Raul (Spain) -2 49 - Eric Cantona (France) -4 50 - Robert Pires (France) -2 51 - Socrates (Brazil) +2 52 - Matthias Sammer (Germany) - 9 53 - Gianni Rivera (Italy) +5 54 - Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands) 55 - Fernando Redondo (Argentina) -4 56 - Patrick Vieira (France) -1 57 - Romario (Brazil) -1 58 - Gary Lineker (England) -1 59 - Carlos Alberto (Brazil) +2 60 - Giussepe Meazza (Italy) +9 61 - David Beckham (England) -1 62 - Roberto Rivelino (Brazil) +3 63 - Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary) +7 64 - Brian Laudrup (Denmark) -5 65 - Rivaldo (Brazil) -3 66 - Glenn Hoddle (England) -2 67 - Pavel Nedved (Czech Republic) 68 - Raymond Kopa (France) +4 69 - Didi (Brazil) +4 70 - Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina) -7 71 - Gaetano Scirea (Italy) -3 72 - Tostao (Brazil) -1 73 - Just Fontaine (France) +1 74 - Ryan Giggs (Wales) -8 75 - Ladislao Kubala (Czechoslovakia-Slovakia/Hungary) +1 76 - Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal) +2 77 - Jimmy Greaves (England) 78 - John Charles (Wales) +5 79 - Paul Gascoigne (England) -4 80 - Denis Law (Scotland) 81 - Mario Kempes (Argentina) -2 82 - Rob Rensenbrink (Netherlands) -1 83 - Kazimierz Deyna (Poland) -1 84 - Juan Schiaffino (Uruguay) +15 85 - Nils Liedholm (Sweden) +16 86 - Preben Elkjaer (Denmark) 87 - Jan Ceulemans (Belgium) 88 - Ruud Krol (Netherlands) +14 89 - Enzo Scifo (Belgium) -1 90 - John Barnes (England) -1 91 - Henrik Larsson (Sweden) -6 92 - Claudio Caniggia (Argentina) -8 93 - Paolo Rossi (Italy) +2 94 - John Robertson (Scotland) -2 95 - Gianluigi Buffon (Italy) +3 96 - Peter Shilton (England) -2 97 - Gianfranco Zola (Italy) -7 98 - Jean Tigana (France) +2 99 - Roger Milla (Cameroon) -8 100 - Davor Suker (Croatia) -7 101 - Pierre Littbarski (Germany) -4 102 - Hristo Stoichkov (Bulgaria) -6 103 - Tommy Lawton (England) 104 - Josef Bican (Austria/Czechoslovakia-Czech Rep) +5 105 - Matthias Sindelar (Austria) +8 106 - Sandor Kocsis (Hungary) -1 107 - Valentino Mazzola (Italy) +4 108 - Jose Manuel Moreno (Argentina) +7 109 - Josef Masopust (Czcehoslovakia-Czech Republic) +1 110 - Silvio Piola (Italy) +9 111 - Dino Zoff (Italy) -3 112 - Rinat Dasaev (Soviet Union-Russia) -8 113 - Teofilo Cubillas (Peru) -4 114 - Florian Albert (Hungary) -2 115 - Gerson (Brazil) -1 116 - Leonidas (Brazil) +13 117 - Dragan Stojkovic (Yugoslavia-Serbia) -11 118 - Ademir Marques de Menezes (Brazil) +7 119 - Alessandro Nesta (Italy) -1 120 - Joszef Bozsik (Hungary) +8 121 - Zizinho (Brazil) +9 122 - Sepp Maier (Germany) 123 - Falcao (Brazil) -3 124 - Luis Suarez Miramontes (Spain) +3 125 - Fernando Hierro (Spain) -9 126 - Jorginho (Brazil) -9 127 - Neville Southall (Wales) -6 128 - Jari Litmanen (Finland) -5 129 - Rui Costa (Portugal) -4 130 - Thomas Hassler (Germany) -6 131 - Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden) 132 - Fritz Walter (Germany) +2 133 - Nilton Santos (Brazil) +2 134 - Andres Iniesta (Spain) +12 135 - Xavi (Spain) +13 136 - Djalma Santos (Brazil) +6 137 - Elias Figueroa (Chile) +1 138 - Kurt Hamrin (Sweden) +3 139 - Obdulio Varela (Uruguay) +12 140 - Wlodzmierz Lubanski (Poland) -1 141 - Alan Shearer (England) -9 142 - Jean-Pierre Papin (France) -9 143 - Grzegorz Lato (Poland) +1 144 - Gunter Netzer (Germany) +3 145 - Faas Wilkes (Netherlands) +11 146 - Alessandro Del Piero (Italy) -10 147 - Michael Owen (England) -10 148 - Sandro Mazzola (Italy) +1 149 - Enzo Francescoli (Uruguay) -9 150 - Zoltan Czibor (Hungary) +3 151 - Julinho (Brazil) +4 152 - Francisco Gento (Spain) +2 153 - Ernst Ocwirk (Austria) +7 154 - Emilio Butragueno (Spain) -9 155 - Bixente Lizarazu (France) -12 156 - Hugo Sanchez (Mexico) -6 157 - Zbigniew Boniek (Poland) -5 158 - Daniel Passarella (Argentina) 159 - Safet Susic (Yugoslavia-Bosnia) -2 160 - Giancarlo Antognoni (Italy) -1 The start and end of each 'group' indicated by numbers in bold text. Because the top 30 voting now has different sets of results to the main voting, I think I'll also include Puck's top ten for the time being and also the Championship Manager boffins top ten as votes for that with points from 10 to 1. When I've compiled the new results, I'll leave Peru FC to show them by position/role if he wants to (I don't think either of us got round to it for the original top 50 voting method results before even though we thought about doing it).
Good work PDG However the latest is worse than your previous few lists ...Like - Near TOP10: no way Basten and Zidane > Beckenbauer - Random pick: it's sad to see Cubillas, Nordahl way below 100 while Lineker is at 58!!! - General best of the best: G. Best (5) and Micahel Laudrup (13) became so OVERATED when Zizinho is at 130? I can tell Zizinho could teach Best how to dribble and teach Laufrup how to pass the balls - he was the very first true #10 ofworld football ...
Well thanks for the rep anyway James. Footage of Zizinho seems scarce and I'm not convinced he'd be a better dribbler than Best or Laudrup, or a better passer than Laudrup - I have seen some footage of late in his career vs Pele's Santos but the 1950 WC footage is quite unclear (better for Ademir's goals though)....is there any source you can recommend to get a further understanding of Zizinho? I know that Pele was a big fan and considered him a complete midfielder, and that he was indeed a very skilled player in world football at that time, but any further info or especially links to games would be much appreciated. He was like a nominal inclusion on my list, but I could have stuck to players I knew/had seen a bit more of or like yourself gone with players from the 50's onwards (I know he still played in the 50's but he was probably in his prime in the 40's I gather and certainly I'm not aware of lots of footage of his teams - he played less for Brazil in the 50's didn't he after the Brazilian selectors decided to go with a fresh team for the 1954 World Cup...and get themselves some yellow shirts instead of the white ones!).
I'm disappointed that msioux repped this Anyhow, as I said on PM, I like the effort and how it deviates from the consensus. I like how PDG tries to inform his own opinion instead of blindly following what others say. It is easy to advocate for more and more Brazilians in the top 50 but I feel that somewhere should be a limit. It is also not the case that Zizinho did groundbreaking things. He was awarded with the WC Golden Ball but that is just a good piece of Brazilian lobbying, it was a retrospective award. If Zizinho had actually won the World Cup then it is another matter and in fact, the teams of the tournament at that time did not always include him. Laudrup on the other hand is one of the few players in history who played well at more than one tournament with a minor country and with different teams as well (1998 team was vastly different as the 1986 one).
Thanks for the kind words Puck. It can be easy to get a complex when we see the rep's now , but I know msioux doesn't have any malice and James was being pleasant too really. It's a hard task, and it's probably the fact that I keep on revising my list that draws extra attention to it anyway and encourages criticism including from schwuppe (sorry if I didn't answer satisfactorily) and actually Peru FC in the form of his questions too (no problem with them btw) - I am as satisfied as I'm going to be bar laods of new footage of old players and/or several 'new Pele's' emerging from the next batch of young players so I'll try and take a backseat now and wait for any new votes (I will add your top ten to the top 30 voting with points from 10 to 1 though like I mentioned and then if you do extend it I can adjust the points again accordingly). I'm still keen to view new sources of old players though of course, and if anyone does have some gems of info/footage of Zizinho I'd be viewing it certainly. James did omit Zizinho from his ranking completely though (because of the info/footage issue), plus as he said on another post everyone will have different choices.
As I said earlier: some players tend to get rated higher as time progresses (I refrain from calling names) while others are ranked lower and lower throughout the years (Sindelar is the best example). It is interesting why that happens but that aside 'legends' of course do not become better or worse with the years, they are only rated differently. That is why it is good that others make up their own minds instead of following what the journalists and 'fans' say. If I may say this: I would encourage you to not listen too much to others - including me of course.
There seems to be a lot of differenciation between best player selections and all-time teams as of about 1950 indeed (msioux I think it was, posted one that didn't have Sindelar or Moreno but had Meazza as a wing half and Ben Barek at inside forward a few days ago - picked by a Spaniard I think; schwuppe cited some best XI's by Austrians in a thread of his including a team with Baltazar in it I think). Generally, and understandably probably, the European view and South American view would be a bit different (I read that Italians felt that Meazza was the best player until Pele emerged but I don't think that view would be accepted in South America necessarily). In hindsight I could perhaps have asked some questions about certain players when the likes of Fried were voting (his vote is on page 1, but he hasn't been online since 2009). It's always interesting to get different views and info, but hard to resist being led while not ignoring them too perhaps... And as for even you..., you've provided a lot of good and interesting info and footage since you joined, but I guess if I followed your opinions directly Van Hanegem would be in my top 50 and maybe Moulijn too (not sure where you'd place him actually but I did appreciate the PM's about him thanks). I do think that certain legends will remain legendary names irrespective of whether future players are better or not (not only Zizinho, Moreno etc but full-backs such as Facchetti and Marzolini even will retain a legendary status through history I think as pioneers of that attacking full-back role and top players in the position in the glorious 60's for example - having said that it is also too easy for us youngsters to dismiss older legends as not matching up to modern players).
I know it's a hard task and that list isby no means to please anyone in particular. (so that I praised your work) Thanks for rephrasing this ... my point ... about the old timers (like Zizinho, Moreno Leonidas Varela ...) Either we rate them CORRECTLY or just OMIT them out in order NOT to misinform viewers /readers. So my rule of thumb is to omit all greats pre-war (prior to 1950) as most of us dont know much of them - Best, Basten Laudrup ... were all overated being higher than Ronaldo, Romario, Messi , Zico, Baggio .... (look none of them had ever made good at WC level)
I'll be adding this to the top 30 voting standings with points from 10 to 1, and doing the same for Puck's top 10 which I'll quote in a minute. I'll also quote my top 30 and adjust the results for that, and I'll do that too for the original top 50 voting fairly shortly to give the up-to-date results that Peru FC can then use if he wants to do any analysis by position/role (only if you want to though Peru, not asking you to otherwise!) The above CM Boffins top ten isn't included in the original method results (just included the Daily Mail's top 50 as per the name of the thread).
To be added to the alternative 'top 30' voting results as a vote with points from 10 to 1, like the Championship Manager boffins selection too. If Puck wants to extend the ranking at any time I'll adjust the vote accordingly and maybe add a vote for the original method voting if the list has enough names (even with no specification of numbered places after position 30....) .
Here's my new top 30 vote to also be reflected in the current standings in a few minutes, with the HM's in bold: And since out of all the quoted top 16's mine became the first to be obsolete here is the new version:
Here are the new standings for the 'top 30 players ever' voting then: 1 Pele 816 2 Diego Maradona 786 3 Johan Cruyff 762 4 Alfredo Di Stefano 696 5 Franz Beckenbauer 687 6 Ferenc Puskas 643 7 Michel Platini 596 8 Garrincha 581 9 Ronaldo 503 10 Eusebio 501 11 Zico 490 12 Zinedine Zidane 475 13 George Best 471 14 Gerd Muller 424 15 Marco van Basten 381 16 Bobby Charlton 365 17 Lev Yashin 320 18 Romario 268 19 Paolo Maldini 225 20 Lothar Matthaus 201 21 Roberto Baggio 175 22 Franco Baresi 170 23 Didi 147 24 Lionel Messi 137 25 Ronaldinho 136 26 Stanley Matthews 126 27 Bobby Moore 115 28 Jose Manuel Moreno 103 29 Ruud Gullit 89 30 Giussepe Meazza 83 31 Zizinho 71 32 Michael Laudrup 70 33 Roberto Rivelino 67 34 Dino Zoff 63 35 Leonidas 55 36 Thierry Henry 47 37 Paolo Rossi 45 38 Dennis Bergkamp 43 39 George Weah 33 40 Rivaldo 32 41 Gianni Rivera 31 42 Duncan Edwards 29 43 Matthias Sindelar 28 44 Kenny Dalglish 24 45 Luis Figo 22 46= Nilton Santos 21 46= Andres Iniesta 21 46= Josef Bican 21 46= Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 21 50= Raymond Kopa 20 50= Cristiano Ronaldo 20 50= Dejan Savicevic 20 53= Ladislao Kubala 19 53= Gabriel Batistuta 19 53= Fritz Walter 19 53= Roberto Carlos 19 57= Hector Scarone 16 57= Juan Schiaffino 16 59= Tom Finney 14 59= Daniel Passarella 14 59= Matthias Sammer 14 62 Arsenio Erico 13 63= Frank Rijkaard 12 63= Xavi 12 63= Kazimierz Deyna 12 63= Hristo Stoichkov 12 67= Falcao 11 67= Peter Schmeichel 11 67= Jozsef Bozsik 11 70= Eric Cantona 9 70= Jairzinho 9 70= Samuel Eto'o 9 73= Kevin Keegan 8 73= Gyorgy Sarosi 8 73= Sandor Kocsis 8 73= Cafu 8 77= Andriy Shevchenko 7 77= Elias Figueroa 7 77= Cesar Cueto 7 77= Gianluigi Buffon 7 77= Just Fontaine 7 82= John Charles 6 82= Teofilo Cubillas 6 82= Gunnar Nordahl 6 82= Gheorghe Hagi 6 82= Kaka 6 87= Junior 5 87= Bruno Conti 5 89= Denis Law 4 89= Adolfo Pedernera 4 89= Djalma Santos 4 89= Lilian Thuram 4 89= Jose Nasazzi 4 94= Jimmy Johnstone 3 94= Valentino Mazzola 3 94= Arthur Friedenreich 3 94= Sandro Mazzola 3 98= Oleg Blokhin 2 98= Mario Kempes 2 98= Luigi Riva 2 98= Giacinto Facchetti 2 98= Nandor Hidegkuti 2 98= Socrates 2 104= Carlos Alberto 1 104= Francesco Totti 1 HM's (counting as those between 31-50 on full votes): Jurgen Klinsmann Johan Neeskens Raul Dragan Dzajic Robert Pires Fernando Redondo Hugo Sanchez Omar Sivori Luis Suarez Miramontes Tostao Enzo Francescoli Gordon Banks Uwe Seeler Francisco Gento Sepp Maier Oliver Kahn Fabio Cannavaro Gary Lineker Ryan Giggs Piet Keizer Edgar Davids Mario Zagallo Domingos Da Guia Bebeto Careca Leandro Ubaldo Fillol Jorginho Gaetano Scirea Hector Chumpitaz Alessandro Nesta Deco Berti Vogts Arjen Robben Claudio Gentile Demetrio Albertini Wesley Sneijder Roberto Donadoni Marco Tardelli Ian Rush Laurent Blanc Ruud van Nistelrooy David Trezeguet Jose Leandro Andrade Ernst Ocwirk Nils Liedholm Preben Elkjaer Gunnar Gren Telmo Zarra Gerson Wolfgang Overath Rob Rensenbrink Zbigniew Boniek Jay Jay Okocha Roger Milla Alessandro Del Piero Marcel Desailly Bryan Robson
And now the correct and up-to-date version of the original top 50 players voting (I remember I did an analysis by country earlier and I'll do an up-to-date version of that within the next days; I also did an analysis by era but I won't do a new one of those at the minute - a big percentage of the older players were probably already in the results when I did it before): 1 Pele 1190 2 Diego Maradona 1164 3 Johan Cruyff 1144 4 Franz Beckenbauer 1092 5 Alfredo Di Stéfano 1086 6 Ferenc Puskás 1041 7 Michel Platini 1023 8 Garrincha 991 9 Eusebio 911 10 Ronaldo 909 11 Zico 896 12 George Best 859 13 Zinedine Zidane 857 14 Gerd Muller 850 15 Bobby Charlton 834 16 Marco van Basten 823 17 Lev Yashin 662 18 Paolo Maldini 644 19 Lothar Matthaus 629 20 Romario 606 21 Franco Baresi 558 22 Roberto Baggio 525 23 Ruud Gullit 521 24 Bobby Moore 494 25 Didí 477 26 Stanley Matthews 431 27 Rivelino 430 28 Giuseppe Meazza 385 29 Lionel Messi 370 30 Ronaldinho 365 31 Zizinho 295 32 Jose Manuel Moreno 293 33 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 271 34 Dino Zoff 265 35 Gianni Rivera 242 36 Leonidas 233 37 Raymond Kopa 231 38 Thierry Henry 210 39 Fritz Walter 202 40 Paolo Rossi 191 41 Ladislao Kubala 163 42 Matthias Sindelar 162 43 Daniel Passarella 159 44 Dennis Bergkamp 147 45 Sandor Kocsis 142 46 Rivaldo 139 47 Michael Laudrup 137 48 Johan Neeskens 112 49 Mario Kempes 111 50= Juan Alberto Schiaffino 107 50= Gabriel Batistuta 107 52= George Weah 103 52= Gordon Banks 103 54 Sandro Mazzola 99 55 Omar Sivori 98 56 Peter Schmeichel 97 57 Giacinto Facchetti 95 58 Kenny Dalglish 94 59 Falcao 90 60 Luís Figo 86 61= Just Fontaine 84 61= Cristiano Ronaldo 84 61= Jairzinho 84 64 Teofilo Cubillas 83 65 Socrates 78 66= Gheorghe Hagi 76 66= Jozsef Bozsik 76 68= Nilton Santos 74 68= Gunnar Nordahl 74 68= Adolfo Pedernera 74 71 Uwe Seeler 72 72 Luis Suarez Miramontes 69 73= Josef Bican 68 73= Duncan Edwards 68 75 Hristo Stoichkov 64 76= Frank Rijkaard 63 76= Carlos Alberto 63 76= Xavi 63 79 Cafu 62 80 Andres Iniesta 61 81 Dejan Savicevic 60 82 Matthias Sammer 54 83= Francesco Totti 53 83= Kaká 53 85 Lilian Thuram 52 86= Roberto Carlos 50 86= Gianluigi Buffon 50 88 Elías Figueroa 49 89 Hector Scarone 43 90= Jurgen Klinsmann 42 90= Cesar Cueto 42 92 Valentino Mazzola 40 93 Arsenio Erico 37 94 Luigi Riva 36 95= John Charles 34 95= Djalma Santos 34 97 Gaetano Scirea 33 98= Hugo Sanchez 32 98= Kazimierz Deyna 32 98= Gyorgy Sarosi 32 101 Kevin Keegan 31 102= Tostao 29 102= Samuel Eto'o 29 102= Dragan Dzajic 29 105 Francisco Gento 28 106 Ryan Giggs 26 107= Andriy Shevchenko 25 107= Arthur Friedenreich 25 107= Junior 25 107= Bruno Conti 25 107= Enzo Francescoli 25 112 Jose Nasazzi 24 113= Eric Cantona 23 113= Piet Keizer 23 113= Oliver Kahn 23 116 Nandor Hidegkuti 22 117 Zbigniew Boniek 21 118= Mario Zagallo 20 118= Tom Finney 20 120 José Leandro Andrade 18 121 Domingos da Guia 17 122 Arjen Robben 16 123 Bebeto 15 124 Fabio Cannavaro 14 125= Gunnar Gren 12 125= Claudio Gentile 12 125= Ernst Ocwirk 12 128= Berti Vogts 11 128= Jay Jay Okocha 11 130= Ian Rush 10 130= Alessandro Del Piero 10 132= Emilio Butragueño 9 132= Careca 9 134= Sepp Maier 8 134= Leandro 8 134= Demetrio Albertini 8 137= Gerson 7 137= Alessandro Nesta 7 137= Nils Liedholm 7 137= Preben Elkjaer 7 137= Marcel Desailly 7 142= Ruud van Nistelrooy 6 142= Wolfgang Overath 6 144= Raul 5 144= Edgar Davids 5 144= Ubaldo Fillol 5 144= Roger Milla 5 148= Wesley Sneijder 4 148= Fernando Redondo 4 148= Bryan Robson 4 151= Jorginho 3 151= Hector Chumpitaz 3 151= Roberto Donadoni 3 154= Telmo Zarra 2 154= Gary Lineker 2 154= David Trezegeut 2 154= Rob Rensenbrink 2 158= Robert Pires 1 158= Deco 1 158= Marco Tardelli 1 HM's: Pavel Nedved Denis Law Josef Masopust Jimmy Greaves John Robertson Jean Tigana Jan Ceulemans Glenn Hoddle Pierre Littbarski John Barnes Enzo Scifo Claudio Caniggia Paul Gascoigne Gianfranco Zola Davor Suker Henrik Larsson David Beckham Johnny Rep Paul Breitner Ademir Marques de Menezes Angel Labruna Luis Monti Alberto Spencer Ricardo Zamora Paul van Himst Wlodzmierz Lubanski Abedi Pele Florian Albert Peter Shilton Tommy Lawton Ruud Krol Rinat Dasaev Neville Southall Dragan Stojkovic Fernando Hierro Jari Litmanen Silvio Piola Jose Emilio Santamaria Zoltan Czibor Alex James Roy Keane Obdulio Varela Danny Blanchflower Mario Coluna Billy Wright Raimundo Orsi Kurt Hamrin Oleg Blokhin Dixie Dean Gunter Netzer Patrick Vieira Brian Laudrup Thomas Hassler Gzregorz Lato Wim van Hanegem Vava Helmut Rahn Jean-Pierre Papin Allan Simonsen Tomas Brolin Andreas Brehme Rui Costa Antonio Sastre Julinho Stjepan Bobek Ferenc Deak