CR7 and Messi's place in football history

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by benficafan3, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Not sure if a thread like this has been posted before but with all this nonsense surrounding the Ballon D'or, I'd be interested to see what some people think in regards to how these two will be remembered when all is said and done.


  2. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2003
    Location:
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Spain
    It's tough to determine while they are still active and basically in (or near/slightly past) the prime of their careers.
    I will say that for me, Cruyff is probably top of the list as far as players that have not won a World Cup. And even if Messi or CR7 were to win it I would hesitate placing either above the Dutchman.
    But again, I need to wait until they hang up their boots before I can properly judge.
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Agree ... WC14 will be Messi's and CR7's big factor in their legend ranking ...
    Plus, they will play *at least their last Copa/Euro in the next 2 years ... to add more spices into their highly rate resume at club level.
  4. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Based on current achievements and continuing on this path for more years (ie assuming neither to win the World Cup, or have an incredible Euros/Copa America).

    Messi - Somewhere in the pack behind Pele, along with Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano and Puskas.

    C Ronaldo - Somehwhere between 10-15 all time, along with Zico, Ronaldo, Eusebio, Best, Charlton, Van Basten, Muller etc. He could potentially move higher, but difficult to say.
    Unak78 and schwuppe repped this.


  5. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Comparing GOAT's in different era's is pretty pointless. But Messi is already at least Top 3, for me Top 2, and his achievements are already rivaling that of Pele's.

    Cronaldo can crack Top 10 at the end of his career.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In case of Cronaldo I don't think it is realistic to expect international silverware.

    The Portugal NT has hardly any other elite players besides him (so called 'world class') and if they would ever have, my experience (and cynicism) tells me that it will not be enough. For beating household names, you have to be markedly better as them otherwise mechanisms like 'psychological slavery' will work against Portugal (not to mention other things like pre-tournament preparation).

    In case of Messi, certainly backed by the current favourable draw (Grondona antics) he will probably win the World Cup or Copa America sooner or later. He can potentially play in the national team until the age of 32/33 or so.

    In case of Messi the chances are big that he will be elevated over the likes of Platini, Cruijff by the media and 'south american fanboy army'. Though he will not beat Maradona I think.

    Ronaldo has a huge danger to be relatively forgotten if he does not win another UCL (many regard him as 'too mechanic' too).
  7. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Currently, Pelé and Diego Maradona are the greatest.


    Pelé-Maradona


    Cruyff-Messi-Di Stéfano-Zico-Platini-Beckenbauer-Puskás-Garrincha


    Lionel Messi is currently in that 2nd tier of legends - an argument for each of them can be made to being the 'third greatest'. However, if Messi wins a World Cup he will unquestionably lead that group. If we were to see Messi win a second World Cup/win further Champions Leagues and maintain his consistent high level, he will reach the 'greatness' of Pelé-Maradona.

    Remember, this is not a list of who is "the best".
    billyireland repped this.
  8. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Why exactly would Maradona, or Pele be in front of Messi, if Messi won World Cup?
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    So why will that make him greater as the others bar Maradona and Pelé?

    Why will Maradona stay greater?

    Personally I think he is currently in the Ronaldo, MvB tier (maybe slightly below them).
  10. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Messi will need to win at least one World Cup before he is in contention in equalling/surpassing Pelé and Maradona in terms of "greatness".

    I did not write the rules of 'greatness' - that is just how it is. Is Messi the/one of the 'best' footballers of all time? - That is a different question.
    Unak78 repped this.
  11. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I agree its way too early. Combined these players are not even half-way through their career in terms of # of WCs they'll play in. So far, combined they've played as a regular for their NTs in 3 World Cups and you figure they still have 2 more each barring injury.
    It's like judging Maradona's career in 1985. Messi will still only be 30 when Russia 2018 rolls around. These are still early days...
    Unak78 and The Potter repped this.
  12. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I sometimes think what if Barcelona had signed Ronaldo instead of Quaresma? Now I know they've had insane amounts of success over the last 6-8 years and all that, and we'll never know how Ronaldo would have developed at the Nou Camp as opposed to Old Trafford because there was an awful lot of work that Ferguson and Quieroz put into him and he made gigantic leaps from 2003-06 (who remembers when Jose Antonio Reyes was seen as 'hands down' the best player between them by so many? :p ), but on top of possibly the best CM/AM tandem in Xavi/Iniesta with Toure/Busquets behind them, to have had possibly two all-time top 10 players in attack would have just been silly.
  13. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The greatness argument is definitely and concertedly based on few games in every four years? I find that argument rather daft. As Maradona's team mate from WC86 said: "Messi is Maradona every day. It is June 1986 for 5 years now. The last 5 years, Messi is the Maradona of the World Cup in Mexico."

    Example, Argentinian newspaper Olé conducted a poll on the greatest Argentinian football player ever, with over 100k votes, and Messi won that poll more than 50% of votes two years ago.
  14. Lucas Gomes

    Lucas Gomes Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2012
    I do not see Cristiano as a top 10-15.
    Which Ronaldo? Fenomeno?
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, that one.
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What did Quieroz 'add' to his repertoire?

    Things like weight training (he trained with extra weight during exercises for increasing strength, which was deemed impossible at Sporting Lisbon) can be done at any big club, like Manchester or Barcelona.
  17. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Anything "can" be done. But that doesn't mean it would have gotten done to the same level of effectiveness.

    Anyway, we will find out with Neymar who is basically a 21 year-old version of CR7 playing at Barca.
  18. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Queiroz and Ferguson each played significant roles - many also feel that while Ferguson built Ronaldo's mentality (because he was a very mentally weak teenage player at times - willing to take on the world or to try to win games alone, but unable to deal with failing at it or to remember that he was one player in a team too often), Queiroz was the one who developed his technical skills. Teenage Ronaldo had as much potential as almost any player to ever kick a football, but he needed someone to help him put it together, to remind him that passing to the nearest player and finding space is often the better option compared to trying to beat three guys dribbling, to get him to keep it simple when he could too (playing with Giggs likely also aided this), and was a big part of helping him fit into a system. He also helped with his passing game, which though he could pull off an incredible pass here or there, left a good deal to be desired in his earlier years.

    Added to that, for all Ferguson's strengths, tactics were not one of them. It was Quieroz who was behind out 4-3-3(ish) formation that saw Park/Giggs playing as a third midfielder/winger, Carrick, Scholes, and/or Fletcher operating in the midfield, Rooney/Tevez in a hard-working forward role, and Ronaldo free to roam as he pleased, which is where his best play at Man Utd came about. This is why Ronaldo's final season at Man Utd was not quite as impressive as the two before - Ferguson just reverted to 4-4-2 and tried to shoe-horn him in as a traditional winger all too often.
  19. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I think his question is, why does Messi have to win *two* WCs just to be put on that 1st-tier? Wouldn't 1 be enough (given that Maradona also won 1 WC), or is this one of those rules that only applies to Messi (like having to prove yourself with more than one club)?
  20. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Cannot believe you said that. Cheers.
  21. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I reckon he has to mean the Brazilian one.

    I don't see how people could place Messi in the top 5 without having Ronaldo in the top 15 though - they both play in very similar circumstances (good footballing nations who have not been at their strongest, Portugal especially being weaker during Ronaldo's career, and two clubs that absolutely dominate the same league with pretty unfair advantages over their competitors). Messi has more silverware, though he also has had the better talent around him and the advantage of stability throughout the club that Ronaldo has been missing, and has played in slightly more attacking setups.

    As for production, Messi at 26 has 327 goals in 395 games for Barca, while Ronaldo has 350 goals in 542 games for Sporting/Man Utd/Madrid, though he has been averaging over a goal a game in his time in Spain (227 in 219 games). Ronaldo probably has about four years of his prime remaining, which could well see him get to 500-600 goals while operating as far more than just a goalscorer, and still with another 3-4 years left in him after.

    For me as it stands Messi is maybe in the 5-8 region with Ronaldo probably on the higher end of 10-15 (this is if we are largely ignoring more defensive players which sadly seems to all-too-frequently be the case). As to where they finish, it's almost impossible to tell in my mind, though I don't see Ronaldo taking the lead between the two.

    EDIT: Also, Ronaldo has 47 int'l goals in 109 games for Portugal at 28 while Messi has 37 in 83 for Argentina at 26. The two highest international goalscorers are Puskas (84) and Pele (77) who did do it in considerably less games but also played in an era where nobody would bat an eyelid at a 5-3 scoreline. There is an outside chance that Ronaldo and Messi will finish their careers as the #1 and #2 international goalscorers of all time. I am not including Ali Daei for obvious reasons.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
    Serengeti_Boy repped this.
  22. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2003
    Location:
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Spain
    Could be argued that he was cheated out of a second (1990).
    Then again, he cheated to win the one. :D
  23. s7kru

    s7kru Red Card

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Location:
    Epitome of Madridismo
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It's too early to judge, but Cristiano has had several successes (CL + Ballon D'Or in 2008, reaching to the final in 2004 with Portugal) in his early career and once he's done playing, his impressive goalscoring stat could be decisive to decide what his place might be in football history. That, and winning possible World Cups/European Cups of course.

    Either way, he is too unique to be forgotten.
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't think Neymar has the same characteristics.

    I also feel that Barcelona has changed as a club and not for the better (in any event, a lot of the staff personnel has changed, Zubizarreta and such. Stories like that have also appeared in the press, before the downfall became obvious.

    I thought Queiroz was more like a tactical dude with Meulensteen doing the technique related stuff :confused:

    In 1990 he also needed a handball to progress to 2nd round. ;)
  25. billyireland

    billyireland Member+

    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    To be honest they both did a bit of both from what I knew - Rene being technique first, tactics second and Quieroz as vice-versa. It's going to be interesting to see how Rene does at Fulham mind!(though that is an almost historically old squad if you look it up on Wiki, if I recall they have more guys 34 or over than 27 or younger, and only 3/4 players under 30!).

Share This Page