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Discussion in 'NY/NJ Off Topic' started by ag nigrin, Jan 12, 2011.
What's next. Bring Steve Ross back?
First, I haven't heard of a Q& A in the last few years, so put the info out there because I would be curious to know how the RB front office plans on boosting its attendance, among other things. Did the ESC have any idea that the Red Bull takeover was happening before it happened? Was there a Q&A immediately after?
Second, no one is saying that you can't question the Cosmos if you didn't go to the Q&A. But people who claim to be Cosmos fans, and claim that the team has been hijacked by people who will do the team and its legacy a disservice, you would expect would want to take an opportunity to question people from the front office. Or participate in the on line that they did, or even get in contact with one of us by PM or email or face to face to talk about it.
But no one ever does. I have pm'ed, off the top of my head, gio17, chupacabra, dr.k, zensum, and emailed blogger (and self-styled "journalist" Dan Feuerstein to say hey, seriously, let's talk about it. But no takers.
Of course, they and everyone else on big soccer has a right to sit on the sidelines and throw spitballs under cover of anonymity. But I do question the seriousness of anyone when they proclaim to really truly care about the cosmos legacy but then demur when they are given any opportunity, in any format and at any time to come and ask real questions and get real answers.
The truth is Paul Kemsley and Terry Byrne have been very open to meeting with the Borough Boys and have shared information that at every turn turned out to be true -- and I tell you this when to be perfectly honest, Paul Kemsley is not exactly my cup of tea personally speaking. And like it or not, it IS Joe Fraga who is the most involved on a day to day basis with each facet of the Cosmos, so he knows what's going on.
Finally, as to Cantona, he is in fact quite involved with the academies. I know this not just from the Cosmos, but parents of kids at Cosmos academy east have said he is there often working with them.
I have no intention of getting into a pissing contest over this issue but unless there's some trick to the private messaging system of which I'm unaware I've never gotten a private message from any of the Borough Boys. I've been reading the site for years but only joined and started posting in early 2008. Since then I've received 13 pms (at least that's what the system seems to indicate) several in 2008 none in 2009 and several more in 2010 again none from the Boys. Since messages go back to 2008 it can't be that the system deletes some messages but leaves the oldest ones in place can it? Could there be some messages that are hidden from easy view? Actually I don't check the pm feature (getting so few messages) a lot and unless I am notified or expect something (a response to the very few messages I've sent) it's again a feature I don't regularly use.
But to the substance I really have no desire to hear what the F.cosmos honchos are saying in private. I frankly don't trust them and not because of some character flaws though I'm sure some exist but mainly because this thing has been one big PR marketing scheme from day one IMHO. No investors ever named, no confirmation that Wilpon was ever working with them despite assertions and Don Garber throwing cold water on their public pronouncements at every turn.
A few days ago Garber for the first time issued a veiled criticism of New York City government as he praised Montreal for stepping up to support the Impact. For the umpteenth time in direct conflict with the feel good PR statements from F.cosmos. A stadium plan? Soil samples? It appears F.cosmos is at stage one just investigating some of the same sites the MetroStars looked into more than a decade ago.
I long ago formed my working theory that F.cosmos is trying to establish the impression of a fait accompli as a PR cover for what they lack, money and a viable stadium plan (money here too). They hope investors will materialize when they see how "close and viable" this thing is. Hearing the same slick PR stuff filtered through supportive fans is not my methodology for getting at the truth. I far prefer speaking to folks who may have some info and or insight from an objective distance. Those folks I try to speak with. Nothing personal we all have our methods.
I'll be stunned if this thing comes to fruition. This is New York City one of the toughest places to pull something like this off particularly for a niche sport like soccer. Then again I've been stunned before...
I thought I pmed you, but I also thought I pmed Paul nasta. But I'm inviting you now.
As you know, you have thrown cold water on this from day one, without information. You believed that they sold to Umbro, which of course wasn't true. You believed they'd never be involved in actual soccer clubs, and are now running two prestigious academies and, have stated publicly they are on the verge of acquiring a PDL team.
Your "method" is certainly your own, and it is certainly ill-advised. Any journalist would tell you that you get information from any source you can, and then you assess the information based on biases and motivations of the provider. We've disclosed who are sources are. Who are your "objective" sources. Is it the objective person who started the rumor that Umbro has taken over the Cosmos? If so, you may want to reassess.
As to the substance, you are absolutely correct that they have used a PR strategy to get the attention of the league, the fans, and ultimately investors to get into the league. I'm not sure why you think that is somehow less legitimate than being just being a rich ********er who built a bunch of strip malls in the suburbs.
You are also deliberately understating what Don garber has said about the NYC franchise and the Cosmos, and you know you are being dishonest about it. But yes, having some experience myself with getting something done in City government, I don't believe that this is anything like a done deal. I think Garber's expression of frustration about that is real.
I think the difference between the Borough Boys and some supporters groups like the ESC, for example, is that we are seeing the opportunity, we are seeing the pitfalls, and we are doing everything in our power to assist in getting this done. We as fans see ourselves as empowered to actually help the process along.
Don Garber has been very supportive of the MLS franchise in NYC, for you to actually deny that is wild dishonesty. He's also said that the Cosmos are but one group and there are other investors interested. If the Cosmos don't actually have the money, as they claim, don't you think there would be an opportunity to put together the money people and Cosmos brand for a team? I'm not sure what the big objection would be to that. The cosmos has already demonstrated a greater commitment to the community than the Metro/red bull have in 16 years.
And ps when was the last time Red bull held a public Q&A?
There has been a strange though I guess understandable dynamic in play with supporters of this F.cosmos venture (and others) inflating all media reports trumpeting F.cosmos and ignoring everything Red Bull does.
When Henry signed last year he appeared on national TV programs and had articles in national magazines as well as appearing prominently in local media. For the F.cosmos fans though articles in obscure soccer internet sites trump all that. Admittedly there has been some "major" media coverage of F.cosmos but creating no where near the groundswell of enthusiasm some might imagine. This entire venture is still largely unknown in NYC.
Similarly anything "their" "team" does in the community is valued while the solid much more extensive stuff Red Bull does is just not acknowledged possibly because folks are simply unaware of it.
More reason why I just have no desire to discuss F.cosmos with their fans (particularly fans that trash and try to undercut the real team in town). I already know the PR lines.
-- 2 years of a successful Copa NYC tournament
-- 2 elite soccer academies, offered free of charge, and they can't do anything with these kids accept give them up when they're age out.
-- A partnership with Department of Education (confirmed by both the team and DOE) to try to integrate soccer sports programming into more schools.
-- A meaningful relationship with the supporters club that was here before they were.
You see, you have no desire to discuss it with Cosmos fans because you know you will be shown that you're wrong. If Red Bull does more in the community, please let me know, because I certainly don't see it on this side of the river. Indeed, when community leaders from Queens -- including local pols -- called Red Bull after a family was struck by a car on their way to a game by the stadium, they didn't bother to call back.
Andrew McGowan (I don't know if he's still there), the VP of "Community Relations" (at least as of 2 years ago) told me he'd love to do a Red Bull event at an inner city school in Queens, he never returned a phone call from me or school officials.
That's my experience with Red bull. I know they have the academy, which is designed to get kids into their system, and that's good. Anything else? Maybe I don't know.
Finally, I don't know any cosmos fan or borough boy who says that Thierry Henry didn't get major media attention. But tell me this, has Red Bull succeeded in turning that attention into something positive? I'm not seeing it.
You don't respond to the arguments. You don't say why it would be such a terrible thing if an investor group partners with cosmos to build a stadium and buy a franchise. Do you not concede that that is at least a reasonable possibility, even if not likely? What would be wrong with that?
Even though Don Garber says that the cosmos are serious suitors for the 20th franchise, even though everyone in the Cosmos organization, who unlike you are NOT anonymous, puts their personal prestige on the line and says that our goal is to have an MLS team, why do you think all of that is untrue?
And if I'm here, telling you that I have seen Kemsley's plans in writing, we have talked about it, talked about the financing, talked about the sites, talked about why Wilpon might have been a good partner and then talked about later why it might not work out, I have talked to city officials and they have indeed confirmed that they have been speaking to the league and the Cosmos about potential sites-- and I'm willing to tell you these FACTS, which is what they are, and I'm willing to divulge my identity to you -- then
on why wouldn't you engage in a conversation about it?
Is it because you would prefer to just be another anonymous internet spitballer? Is it because you want to just continue to delude yourself? If true, that's your prerogative, but why would anyone give you any credibility when you're only willing to listen to one side of the story, and that side is the side that really has no information about what is really going on?
Kemsley bought the brand from Pinton how long ago? End of August 2009, iirc. I thought they sponsored one Copa NYC tournament. Did I miss one?
The academies (one in Queens and one in California, and the latter's already had a big change in a short period of time) are being sponsored (bankrolled on Anomaly debt, it seems) but having the players play for free was something RBNY did years ago.
Given all the problems with NYC public schools in the news, I guess the partnership you mention isn't a high priority.
How can there be a "meaningful relationship" between a supporters club and a team that doesn't (yet) exist?
The BB q&a was a joke and I've heard the online was even more empty. By means of contrast, RBNY held meetings with supporters and local youth soccer leaders at RBA, including q&a with Soler, Backe, Montgomery and players (also webcast live).
All you know is the RBNY academy? I don't know, why don't you start with a look at the website. You'll learn there about lots of things going on. There are RBNY trainers on fields throughout the region every week. They have the program where they donate equipment to inner city clubs. The have Student of the Game Partnerships with clubs throughout the region. They have Regional Development Schools, etc. You really can't compare an active MLS franchise with a group whose aims are unclear.
Do they need to do more? Yes. Do they need to do better? Yes. But what other MLS franchise has a local supporters group that actively works against their efforts?
We've raised serious objections to this Kemsley, Byrne, Johnson, Cantona group that haven't been addressed. Even by the BB's own self-congratulatory accounts of the q&a, it was an occassion to show mutual admiration, not a forum for serious speculation. And I don't think the three who showed up to the BB q&a could have possibly answered those concerns honestly and meaningfully in that context.
Still haven't answered this question: were the BBs expecting that trio for the q&a or at least one of Kemsley, Byrne, Johnson, or Cantona as well?
I have discussions about the Cosmos with loads of people, pro and con, nearly every day. If people don't want to meet you live maybe it's because of your internet persona. Andrew didn't return your phone call? Don't blame him.
No, you haven't, you've thrown spitballs on the internet. You've had opportunities to address them, but you've passed because you don't want your identity revealed and associated with the silly things you say on here.
Why not reach out to queens nick, he's nice on line and off line and always willing to make himself available?
Right, because you don't want to know.
Copa NYC was kemsley's baby from year one.
You, Zensum, Gio17 and Dan Feuerbach have all these "sources", but no one divulges a single one. Pathetic. And your sources are 0 for 1 as far as I know.
As for All the problems in city schools, one of the biggest is the lack of sports programs. It's very sad. I would say that you wouldn't know much about it, but then you'd go to the mods and claim that I'm exposing your identity for suggesting that you don't live in the city. So I won't.
I checked the Red Bull web site, and here's the community news!
the New York Red Bulls recognize that the fans are a huge part of the team's success on and off the field. That's why the team looks to give back to the community in any way possible through various community activities and events. Check back soon for the latest updated schedule of your Red Bulls in the community!"
Ok, will check back for the latest!
But honestly, the point is not to criticize the Red Bulls, but to try to understand the objections that are being made here.
Is it that:
1. you don't believe they want to become an MLS team?
2. You don't believe they have the capability to become an MLS team?
3. If you believe it's at least possible, why do you object to the way they are going about it? Would you prefer that a foreign corporation brand the team with their company name?
4. Seriously, what do you think the end game is here for them? Do you honestly believe that they are selling enough merch to pay for their operations? Really? You think the purchase of FC goetschee was to enhance shirt sales? You think CopaNyc was to help sell soccer balls that say "cosmos" on them? Give me a break. I walk by the Upper 90 store in brooklyn 3 days a week and it's always empty.
The only way this all makes sense is if they get into top flight soccer.
I don't know how to make this more clear but let me try hopefully for the last time...
1) I'm a 58 year old New Yorker a Red Bulls fan and former Cosmos fan therefore I'm interested in discussing NY2 expansion and this F.cosmos initiative with other Red Bulls fans on a Red Bulls forum.
2) I have no desire or intention to engage in dialogue with F.cosmos executives, NY2 supporters, or the Borough Boys fan club.
3) There can be no possible objection to anyone characterizing my refusal to engage in any way they see fit. Their characterizations are of no concern to me whatsoever.
Oh, you've made yourself entirely clear my middle aged friend. Entirely clear. Good luck to you with all of that.
Someone who behaves like a cyber bully, posting rude and obnoxious personal attacks for years, shouldn't be surprised when people have no interest in finding out if the real person is as bizarre as the Internet persona.
Plenty of people on these boards know me well.
I am among the many (inside and outside soccer) who feel a second NY franchise would be counterproductive to the one in place since the inception of MLS. I respectfully disagree with those who see otherwise, starting with Garber, who I feel has handled the current NY franchise horribly.
I especially object to Pinton's handling of the brand and think the cast of characters currently involved (with the exception of Gio) unworthy of moving the legacy of the Cosmos forward, for reasons I've stated rather clearly already in this thread. I see no need to meet personally with any Boys to discuss in greater depth. Not worth my time.
It is unfortunate, isn't it zensum, that we can't have a discussion about the Cosmos legacy and what it means to the current fanbase or the possibility of NY2 and what it might mean for the existing franchise, without some troll intruding and ruining discussion with personal attacks.
You hate Pele. OK.
You refuse to discuss the Cosmos with anyone (ie not just me) who has actual facts about them. OK.
Hopefully the day will soon come when RBA is sold out for the first time since its opening day for the Cosmos v. red bull game, and perhaps then you will be appreciative of what the "cast of characters" have done with the Cosmos legacy and done for your team which has otherwise totally failed to capture the imagination of the metropolitan area.
Your last hope for soccer to survive in the New York area is the Cosmos. I'd embrace it, if I were you.
It's hard to summarize this curious (being charitable here Doc, lol) dynamic in a few words but let me try...
The first blow was struck by the Borough Boys and their allies some of whom framed their NY2 crusade in part in terms of attacking our club the New York Red Bulls as a corporate sellout and not a legitimate club for folks living in NYC. We're named after a foul energy drink and play in the foreign backwaters of New Jersey yada, yada.
Many of us leaped to the defense of our team (as well we had to!) and the battle was joined.
The next event was the F.cosmos initiative that in its original persona was portrayed as a lifestyle marketing / traveling all star team venture. Some in the not insubstantial portion of the Red Bull fanbase comprised of former Cosmos fans entered that fray.
The great irony occurred when the NY2 supporters morphed into the F.cosmos fan club supporting a "team" named after our former club that made history representing NYC and the entire metro area playing in of all places East Rutherford New Jersey.
It's just incredible to me that folks think they can maintain their staunch anti Red Bull stance but have offers to have a cordial sitdown discussion taken seriously. They're like fanatics in any sphere (been there several times myself, lol) who believe that if they can just talk in the proper venue the simple minded heathen will see the light and in this case happily transfer their support to F.cosmos.
Been there, done that, but just too old for that stuff now.
This whole reasoning is assuming the flawed belief that all support for a team is generated through personal attacks on BigSoccer.
Couldn't supporters look towards the Cosmos simply out of nostalgia or identity? And couldn't people argue that anti-Red Bull sentiment because they actually are against their presence in professional sports?
BigSoccer presents a minute fraction of all soccer sentiment in NYC. There are plenty of people in Queens, that while not hating the Red Bulls or the drink, still prefer a team in Queens.
you forgot to mention the whole debacle surrounding FC New York, how they talked big at first and how many people thought they were planning to come into MLS --only to have the letdown later as they made it perfectly clear they would only enter USL and of course the wait, how long it took them to get up and running.
Who thought FC NY were planning to come into MLS? That was never in their plan.
It was widely speculated at first (and management did nothing to discourage such speculation), before the official club announcement made their intentions clear to everyone. I remember the discussions about it on Big Soccer. I was never pro or against, i merely followed the discussion. Even after the official announcement came there were some who were holding on to hopes of a 5 to 7 year roadmap to MLS.
Enough time has passed since then for all to see that that is untenable, but thats ok--there is room enough in NYC for minor league soccer.
I checked the "Community" tab on the web site and seemed to find alot more than just what you posted. While I did see the above under the Community News section, I also found the following:
Kicks for Kids!
Through partnerships with many local corporations, the team is able to invite numerous children's charities to each home game free-of-charge through our Kicks for Kids and Kids Night Out programs. Get Involved »
Go 4 Goals!
Go 4 Goals is an in-class incentive program designed to help motivate students in achieving educational success and to teach them the value of setting goals. The program serves as a tool for teachers who are seeking unique tactics to help enhance their classroom activities. For more information contact Christina Giunta at (973)268-7245 or email@example.com.
The New York Red Bulls make numerous donations each month to non-profit organizations across the tri-state area. If your charitable organization is holding an event to benefit your cause, write to us for help!
Please submit all requests to:
New York Red Bulls
Attn: Community Relations
600 Cape May Street
Harrison, NJ 07029
We process all requests and ship donations one month prior to the event date. The Red Bulls ask that telephone inquiries regarding donation status not be made due to the high volume of requests received. All donation decisions made by the New York Red Bulls are final and all donations will be mailed according to dates of the events.
While I am not saying the above is enough community involvement, you could at least paint a proper portrayal of what you are viewing and what the team is or is not doing. Not make it seem like they are doing nothing.
The website needs to be updated in many more areas than just the Community News section.
And the ESC has an annual membership drive in late winter/early spring. There is always a guest from the team or front office scheduled to appear. It is normally advertised via a thread in the New York Red Bulls forum or via metrofantic boards. It's not hard to find if you wanted to get information so you could show up next year to ask your questions. There is nothing stating you need to join in order to attend.
Of course. My point was to counter the poster's nonsensical claim that his views on the Cosmos revival are based off of internet interactions on BigSoccer. Nothing on BigSoccer will ever determine who I support.