Copa Libertadores 2013

It took almost an hour of play for Tolima to pierce the Vallejo defense. The Peruvian team is playing a lot better than I expected, actually. Not that I expected much.

No one really knows what happened to Nico Pacheco yet, Santista. He seems to have slipped and hit his head on the edge of the pool, and then just drowned. He had been drinking with friends. Unfair to call the whole of a country "animals" over somehing that could be an accident.

PS: Libman impersonating an octopus, he alone is keeping the Vallejo in it.

 

So did Honduras in 01, by your logic their also a powerhouse. And matter fact, Mexico also kicks the crap out of Brasil, it doesn't make them a better team or remotely close to a powerhouse.

When Mexico can get past the round of 16 at the WC and beat some of the actual powerhouses along the way, we'l get back to that powerhouse talk.

There are very few teams that can be called powerhouses and in the Americas only Brasil and Argentina can make that claim.

 

How do you figure that Brasil has "earned" 5-6 club teams in the Libertadores year in and year out?
I mean if it's for 'history" sakes, then Argentina should have 10 participants by your logic.
Bottomline is Conmebol doesnt apply coefficient figures in the way the UEFA does. Meaning countries like Ecuador and Chile should have been given somewhat higher berths based on some of the more recent success in club play. Instead with 5-6 clubs, you're doubling the odds of going further for the same countries.

 

Honduras was a one-time pony.

If I have to tell you something that obvious perhaps you oughta rethink your position because you, apparently, seem to have no grasp as to the happenings in our continent's football.

If we were going by coefficients, Bolivia would have .5 teams, period.

Personally, I would love coefficients but that can only happen with more nations in the competition. That is something no one wants because Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela know, deep down, that there are clubs north of the border than can, and have, beaten their historical greats. Better to keep the illusion (at least to themselves) going than being forced to realize the truth: in South America, it is Brazil and everyone else.

A note aside: from 1960-1999 (when everyone but the nation containing the defending champion) had even slots, Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina dominated far more than they did after that time. Due to the format, it was impossible to have an a final happen between two clubs of the same nation until 2000. Before that, teams from the same nation would be limited to face each other in the QF due to the format no matter what (provided they made it that far). The only two times a Pacific team won the competition was against Olimpia in the late 80's/early 90's when all of South America, especially Brasil, Argentina and Uruguay, were feeling the effects of having their players exported en masse.

After 2000, Pacific teams have won two finals, against an Argentine and un clube Brasileiro.

 

Right, right...

So the body, found at Racing Club's ground (one of the most violent and cynical teams in the world), was apparently choked to death and plenty of blood was found nearby. According to the coroner, he has been dead for a good while and it doesn't seem to be an accident...

...at the same, exact time, the leaders of the animals you call "Racing Club's barras", a group of murderers, thieves and bullies, happen to take a vacation on a cruise.

Now, you are going to tell me that is a coincidence...

God, I wish more people in Brasil would wake up and realize that we do not need to be mixed up with cultures like this.

 

I think what he means is that Brazil "deserves" to have 5 or 6 teams in the tournament given the richness of its soccer tradition. He may also say this given the recent years' participation of Brazilian and Argentine teams.

It was only in 2000 that the Copa Libertadores swelled to 32 teams. All the countries other than Brazil and Argentina had a 3-team allotment except for Venezuela and Mexico, who got two each. Brazil and Argentina only had 4. In 2001 and 2002, Argentina had 5 teams as Boca Juniors had won it in 2000 and 2001. Come 2003, Argentina and Brazil reverted to 4 again as 2002's champion was Paraguayan (Olimpia), and Paraguay now had 4 teams.

In 2004, Argentina had 5 teams again because Boca won it in 2003 - and Brazil, too, got 5 teams. I believe it is because from that year on, the Copa do Brasil champion won a berth.

In 2005, Argentina and Brazil again had 5 teams - 2004's champion, Once Caldas, enabled Colombia to field 4 teams. It was in 2006 that we began to see 6 teams from one country - SPFC's 2005 title enabled this. It's been that way ever since. A default 5 for Argentina and Brazil each, 3 for each other country, including Mexico and Venezuela. The only exception was 2010, when Mexico got 5 berths - San Luis and Guadalajara were given automatic round-of-16 berths to compensate for the controversy with H1N1 fever in 2009. The same year, Argentina had 6 teams as 2009's champion was Estudiantes.

Since then, Brazil has had 6 teams because its teams won the Copa in 2010 (Internacional), 2011 (Santos), and 2012 (Corinthians).

Attribute it to CBF's and AFA's influence in CONMEBOL, but like it or not, these two are the major powers in the continent. Uruguay has won tons of Copa America tournaments and its teams have much history in the Libertadores, but its recent resurgence notwithstanding, it is not the powerhouse it was in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.

 

Santista1962,

My limited understanding of football violence in this neighboring country tells me that it's a bit more complex. The "barras" often have political connections and they literally, at times, get away with murder. But this doesn't mean that the behavior of these violent elements represents the totality of Argentine soccer. The managers, trainers, groundkeepers, ball-catchers (gandulas), talent scouts, medical personnel, ticket salespersons, cheerleaders (a new development), are not necessarily linked to regrettable actions by some violent fans.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Racing barra fans who are on vacation had ordered, or at least had some involvement, with this reporter's death. But regardless of who is responsible, this is a tragedy: sports journalism has lost one of its own; the image of that nation's soccer has been marred; and, a mother tonight mourns her son's unnecessary death. It's wiser to honor the reporter's memory by not conflating what was done to him with the entire school of his country's football. Soccer players from rival teams didn't do this. Arguably it wasn't even rival fans. A person or persons who had evil intentions and thought themselves above the law - who happened to be (very possibly) soccer fans - killed him. Do they represent Racing Club? Unless evidence appears that they do, I'd hope and think not.

Do Brazilian people need to be mixed up with this kind of violent soccer fan culture, such as that seen when rivals who head competing fan factions make threatening gestures to each other? No, they don't. Is it regrettable that in our continent, corrupt practices are often the territory of some fans, certain clubs, and even authorities? Absolutely. But there are noble athletes and persons who exhibit sportsmanship in all strata. I'm not going to conflate a good coach and all-around good guy like Carlos Bianchi with the two men who appear in the URL I linked. Why would I? He's a coach, not a gangster. Why would I conflate Luiz Felipe Scolari with some Mancha Alviverde fans who have committed murder? Why would I identify Tite, a very diligent and professional manager, with some of the marginais who are notorious for being part of Corinthians' fans?

You're taking it too far. Brazilian (and Peruvian, Uruguayan, Chilean, etc.) teams come to Argentina, play, and leave. Vice-versa. There is fan violence, oftentimes deadly, in other CONMEBOL nations as well. Not every Argentine (or Colombian, Ecuadorian, Paraguayan) team does what Tigre, Argentinos Juniors, or Estudiantes did. They come to Brazil, play their matches, and leave. Sure, trash talk and violent fouls, and sometimes pushing happens. It's been that way since the 1950s, 1940s. It'll always be that way. Doesn't mean that when these teams visit each other, that sadistic murderers are "mixed up" with visiting athletes who in general do their job - play a soccer match, mind their own business, stay in the hotel before and after minus some shopping and dining - and then return to their own countries.

I'm not necessarily "defending" Argentine soccer. Their NT is my NT's biggest rival and I always root against their teams. But I'll not go as far as to vilify or to demonize them as a people or a nation, which is what your posts seem like what you're doing.

 

You're so thick you think a culture is something you can change by leaving one football confederation for another.
It's idiocy, like if we were to say "Let's join the Europe Union, we need to stop being mixed up with the Brasil favelas drug cartels"...

About the incident, it just happened today and is yet unclear what happened. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were like you say, something involving the barras (not the cruise thing, though, that's shameful but not related), but i'm kinda surprised you putting all the people in the same bag, as if fans of one club were all barrabravas. Violence and barras has been, like Century said, a complex matter for quite some time in Argentina, and all of the common people (who are the vast majority) condemn it, not only on a principles ground but also because we also suffer their abuse in a practical day to day reality in football. Its an intricate matter that sometimes has nothing to do with football but with being a tool of political parties or unions. But you simply reduce it to the sentence "Let's not play this country's teams, or else we'll get mixed up with their violent culture" which has nothing to do with the matter, and shows little to no understanding.

About Racing team being cynical or violent, well... I don't know what the hell you're talking about, perhaps you're stuck in the english media view of argentine and uruguayan 60's football styles (and even then, you must be talking about Zubeldía/Bilardo's Estudiantes of said times). But anyway, at least in Argentina, the days when you could pinpoint a certain style (or morals) of football in a certain team for more than an year or two (sometimes even 3 matches are too much) are over.

 

Can we please uhhhh not derail the thread...

We do have a world rivalries section... t-thanks

 

A moderator that trolls...

...talk about ignorance...

 

Leon out Iquique in!

 

Indeed. Boy, was Rengo Díaz awesome in both games.

 

this Iquique team is good - watch out

and their uniform is awesome

 

Iquique was lucky that the Chilean Federation probably paid the refs.

The penalty was nonexistent, red card was exaggerated, and they extended 4 minutes injury time!

Can't beat a better team without cheating, I'm afraid.

 

The same Rengo Díaz that played in Lanús and Independiente? Isn't he like 40 years old?

 

Maybe if you can't count: he's 31.

 

So rumor is Sao Paulo are going to field a weak starting 11, given the history that a team from Sao Paulo never lost in La Paz... this has only fired up Bolivar... even if they don't win the 2 game serious (which isn't happening), we at least take that away from them!

 

If São Paulo scores one goal, Bolívar needs to score seven. Believe me, São Paulo will go for the early goal. 5-0 to tie the series is very difficult, but not unheard of. 7-1 on the other hand... impossible.

 

I think you mis'read my post. I am saying, they are going for a win purely for pride because no side from Sao Paulo has ever lost in La Paz. While I doubt they will win 6-0.... They still want to win so they can say they beat Sao Paulo in La Paz.

 

I don't see them going past the first round but it's nice to see them here.

 

Lúcio and Luís Fabiano are supposed to start. Both started for Brazil during the 2010 World Cup and on certain 2010 WCQ matches.

Whoever spread those rumors must not know this – or, they have a strange definition of what a “weak starting 11” means.

I would prefer that my team return from your country unbeaten, but a defeat won’t be the end of the world as long as my team competes in the group stages. If anything, going to Bolivia will be helpful because The Strongest is also part of the group São Paulo will be in should it secure its berth.

 

So Iquique advances on PKs, and Tigre with a solid two-game elimination of Deportivo Anzoátegui. Iquique will have its hands full with Peñarol and Vélez Sarsfield – I don’t see them in the elimination rounds. Tigre may have a shot – Palmeiras is rebuilding, and Barcos may not be enough to get them through. It should be interesting on April 2, when Tigre returns to the city of São Paulo.

Tonight, I absolutely will watch Grêmio vs. Liga de Quito. It’s unfortunate that two of the best teams in the entire Copa will be gone after tonight. I hope it’s Liga; Grêmio is solid, and I want to see how well Vanderlei Luxemburgo will do as a manager in the Libertadores (his league record is better than his cup record).

 

That's how it came out in the press.... but the bolivian press is crap. lol

With that said, it should be good experience for Sao Paulo in La Paz, to get them ready for "Los Tigres".

I am hoping for a decent win. 3-1 would be nice.

Me too. I want Gremio to go on, primarily because of Marcelo Moreno-Martins .