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Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions League' started by ImaPuppy, Apr 11, 2011.
Can someone interpret?
If you re-read all of my posts you'll find that I was against the assinine fan-speak on both sides. This thread started off with ludicrous assertions by Monterrey fans that indicated that RSL was not even close to Monterrey's level.
It then devolved into a meaningless discussion about the draw, with the same points being made in post after post, page after page, etc.
Finally there were a couple of RSL fans showing up with equally ridiculous claims to those at the start of this thread.
However, what we ended up with was what I expected. Two very good teams playing pretty good soccer, with a series that came down to one goal scored just seconds prior to the halftime break. Monterrey ended up showing that they were the superior team, which I think was the assumption before the series began. However, RSL also showed that they deserved to be there, and could be very competitive in this series.
Congrats to Monterrey, and knock em dead in Japan.
What exactly was everything in their favor? This was a completely fair home and away series. Even if you believe the conspiracy BS, once the finals began, both teams were on equal ground. Nobody was handed an advantage.
Score, weather, altitude, home field support. If those aren't advantages I don't know what is
By that logic, Monterrey choked at home, when they had those factors in their favor but only managed a draw, right? When it comes right down to it, in important games those factors do matter, but not nearly as much as the quality on the field. They are somewhat minor factors overall.
Did Monterrey lose? No, granted they should of done better than a draw. The tables turned and all RSL needed was a draw, those minor factors sure were emphasized a lot from the RSL camp. In fact you only have to go back a few pages just to see what I am talking about. Therefore I still stand by my point, RSL choked.
This was a very narrow series. If it makes you feel better to say that RSL choked, then fine. If it makes you feel better to say Monterrey dominated, then so be it. If it makes you feel better to say RSL didn't deserve to be there, then run with that.
For those who chose to be honest about the situation, they know what the reality was: two good teams fighting it out to the finish. In the end, the better club won, but only after the underdogs gave a good fight. Skew that how you must.
Also, you are right. Both Monterrey fans and RSL fans have said some ridiculous things in this thread. I prefer to have a logical discussion based on the reality of the situation, not based on fan bravado.
One thing hopefully learned by the MLS from this RSL run should be that if MLS wants to continue to see teams in the position RSL got to this season they (MLS) need to raise our leagues salary caps to allow for more talented players to stay and play in MLS. I read on a previous post or article that Monterray spends around 23 million on player salaries compared to a MLS cap of 2.6 million. with those numbers; what RSL accomplished was huge and will be hard to replicate.
MLS' priority has to be the financial well being of the league and it's member franchises. There can be no debate that success in CONCACAF is nice, but not essential. In this respect, the concept of increased salary caps is not timely right now. RSL has demonstrated that success in CONCACAF is the responsibility of the individual franchises. If the franchise makes it a priority, the franchise can, indeed, be successful.
The 23 million number is based on transfer fees. The actual team salary was about $9 million. There isn't that much of a salary gap.
Respuesta: Re: CONCACAF Champions League Final: Real Salt Lake vs. Monterrey
Eagle: I have two problems: I lost the away game in Libertadores and I don't play at Azteca for the home one.
---Jaguar: That's nothing! I have two problems too: I didn't take advantage of the home match in Libertadores and I'm the last place in the league.
---Norteño: I have two problems as well: I'm scared about the radiation in the Japan CWC and there isn't room for my new crown.
dude i just like to say that i like your post they r really cold and accure. congrats to RSL they did a really really good job still a lot to improve but good job.
My comment did include a "if" and "if" we want to consistantly perform on the level RSL did in this last CCL then the MLS Salery cap has to go up.
For me as a fan, this CCL run has been huge and I can can only hope to be cheering for Seattle or any other MLS team next year.
I think Monterrey have been the only undefeted team in CCL, correct me if im wrong?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kAXmnC2IcI"]YouTube - Rayados Campeon CCL 10-11[/ame]
I have seen a lot of comment about the payroll etc the payroll dose not cplay, before the game and more after the first leg, the RSL were really confident and alot off them even saing that the payroll dosent play, wich its true, its the hability of the player, Monterrey play with some Monterrey natives not only with starts, also true the entire competitions they use a lot of reserve players pretty much kids born in Monterrey or Mexico, and take some good result on it (tied with Saprissa, won v Marathon)
If this game you saw more iniciative on RSL its becuse they needed the goal, Monterrey let RSL play the ball and get tired, they learn form the first game when Monterrey was traing 2 make the 3rd goal and RSL whas pretty much with 10 player on there field, and with a counterattack they tied the game...
RSL dirent have nothing to lose and a lot to win, even after all happen they show they are a good team and they put all the effort on the game they dirent play on the domestic league to focus on CCL but I guess @ the end Mty pull it off even after ahving to many injuries and games on theire back
Lets hope next CCL we see more games like this finals between MExicans and Americans teams but hope they put the same balls since group fase, and lets hope there people react the same as RSL Fans did on this last final
Without acquisition fees and loan fees, RSL's salaries are about $2.5M. That's a gap of 3-4 times. I think you can argue how much of an impact that has, but it's a huge differential either way you look at it. However, you can't use salaries as an excuse.
I think that in order to close the gap in play on the field, MLS needs to close this gap significantly if they want to be more competitive in Concacaf on a consistent basis. I think in order to improve the level of the league, this should be a goal. It will benefit them in CCL play, in domestic play, and in the profile of the league within the region. Of course, they need to grow the salaries in a responsible fashion, but they need to focus on this as a goal.
When MLS can compete financially for hired guns like Suazo then they can improve their ability to compete on an international level. Of course, that would only be part of the solution.
BTW - I thought Suazo was about $3M. Does anybody have this info?
No body in Mexico makes $3M a year..i doubt that
It's near 2.5 million highest paid in mexico, it's not 3M but however it is very impressive.
its not all just pay though....
some of these south americans know that they will have a decent chance of going abroad form Mexico, playing libertadores....
Pay is a factor but not the ultimate factor..
MLS will not give them any of that
Pay is probably the most important, but you are right not the only thing.
Style of life is a selling point for the USA.
For now the USA can only pay the 3rd-4th rate south Americans, Mexico can pull the 2nd rate south Americans.
The difference between a Gimenes and a Espindola.
Yes playing in Libertadores is a window for players to then move on to bigger leagues, Mexican soccer is much more respected than MLS around the world.
Mexico is in par with J-league, K-league.
The USA is a step above the A-league.
Well....the fat lady has indeed belted our her last tune and it is no surprise that Monterrey came out on top.
I thought RSL played well in the first game, mostly the first half, but they were indeed lucky to get a point (and two goals) out of that game. Not lucky in the sense that they lucked out, they scored two very good goals but even a below par Monterrey showed how to move the ball around effectively in the final third.
For all their talk about how this RSL team is different from other MLS teams and likes to keep the ball on the ground, they ended up playing a very "MLS" style against a team that was indeed better than them.
I refrained from posting about this series because I'm not a Monterrey fan and could honestly care even less if they had won this series but I found it amusing how quickly RSL (and MLS) fans throw around words like "RSL OUTPLAYED MTY!!" or "RSL UTTERLY DOMINATED THE GAME!!!" because it shows their ignorance of the basics of the sport. Barcelona (and a few exceptions) aside, no other team is able to "utterly dominate" its rival. It's quite simple because throughout a 90 minute game, the momentum tends to swing and both teams, regardless of their payroll, will have a chance to create goal scoring chances based on that shift. Just because RSL were able to connect a few passes on the ground in their own defensive third in Monterrey, doesn't mean they "outplayed" anyone. To be fair though, the first 20 minutes down in Monterrey, RSL was able to create danger (note: creating danger does not equal domination) and unsettle the Rayados' defense.
Part of Monterrey's problem in the first leg was their lack of a physical presence in the center of the field. Luis Perez and Walter Ayovi work very well together when they keep the ball on the ground and the opponent gives them a bit space to look up and pick out a teammate for a pass. RSL didn't allow Monterrey that kind of space at the beginning of the game and is, IMO, a big reason for how disjointed Monterrey looked. Once Perez came out and Zavala entered, Monterrey still had a hard time moving the ball around because of RSL's pressure but they didn't panic. Vucetich went into the locker room, reorganized the team a bit and RSL spent almost the entire second half booting balls out of their box and cramming bodies into their defensive third to cut off passing lanes for Suazo and co. In the end though, I don't think the 2-2 result was unfair.
After the match, I was a bit surprised by Vucetich's comments regarding RSL. He basically admitted that they knew little about RSL and their players and that now they would be able to come up with a good strategy.....I mean, really? You wait until RSL scored two goals on you at home to figure them out?
But he was right......he undressed Kreis and RSL and took the title home.
Some of the adjustments he made was moving Ayovi to a wingback role and moving Santana centrally while adding Morales in place of the suspended Zavala. Perez and Osorio switched side and as the game wore on, Osorio moved to CB and took turns with Mier in covering Saborio. It must be noted that even with some questionable defensive plays, Mier kept Saborio in his back pocket over the two legs. I wasn't in favor of using Mier for this series since he's out of rhythm having just returned from injury and I could tell he wasn't quite his comfortable self. Basanta made a big mistake in the first leg towards the end of the game in the first leg as Espindola broke his ankles in the final minutes of the game to tie it up and Basanta learned his lesson and kept a close eye on both Morales and Espindola. RSL had no answer for Santana in the midfield and soon after began backing off him as he surged into the 18, which is what allowed his combination play with Suazo to yield the game winning goal.
The first 22 or so minutes from the second game were RSL's and after Monterrey connected a few passes under pressure they woke up and controlled the game to their liking. Same can be said for the first 20 minutes of the second half at which point, Vuce started making defensive substitutions and ordered the team to stay compact as he had already figured Kreis's boot the ball into the box and see what happens strategy was fruitless and he turned out to be right. Again, for as much as we heard about how different this team was to what we're used to seeing from American teams (both club and NT) they very much played like an MLS team. First ten minutes aside, you'd be hard pressed to find an actual goal scoring chance created by RSL seeing as how most of them were half chances at best which also leads to us to these so called "stats" that have been presented. Monterrey had three shots, one ended up being a goal and the other were a lot closer than most of RSL's half chances. There was one play that incorrectly called offside for RSL but Espindola choked and didn't even finish it anyway. It was their South American trio, who actually did a lot of talking before the final, that let them down. Saborio ran his mouth to the American and Mexican media and he ended up being the worst player on the pitch for both teams.
Hats off to RSL for a good run but those who claim the gap is closing need to watch this game from a neutral point of view and actually analyze how Monterrey controlled the away leg and slowly but surely killed off any hope of RSL winning the title.
Yup, they hold that distinction and probably will for a long time. It's interesting to note that Atlante won the 2009 title after having lost to Joe Public at home, and Pachuca won the 2010 title after having been destroyed by Arab United.
p.s. We all owe IMD some rep for that breakdown. It was much better than most bloggers and professional sportswriters have done.
IMD - a fairly good and thorough review.
However, let's be honest about it. RSL had the better of play in this series about 30% of the time. MTY had the better play about 35% of the time. And the rest of the time they were level. A pretty narrow margin, but enough to make Rayados the Champions.
This was a very close series, and it came down to big players (Suazo), making big plays (the goal), in big games (the final). IMO - he was the only real difference in this series.
To act like MTY was calm and cool throughout this series, and were always going to win is disingenuous.
I think there was another difference here: experience. RSL didn't respond well to MTY's pressure on the ball in the 2nd leg. They hadn't faced that in the past, and seemed a bit unsure of how to respond, and panicked a bit. For those who are familiar with RSL, that is not their typical game, and I think in the future they'll be better prepared to deal with this. This series, this tournament, was a huge learning experience for the team.
Monterrey has a great mix of overall quality, big game experience and a special player that's a game changer. It's a good mix. I'll be interested to see if they can do any damage in Japan.
Thanks for sharing that. At the match in Monterrey, one of the Mexican media members said they thought it was $3M, but I hadn't been able to verify.
I don't think so. Mexico is in par with most European clubs, except the top ones. The top Mexican clubs are in the same level as most clubs in 3rd place and below, Except when some of the other top traditional teams reach the level of Barcelona and R. Madrid, but those are rare occasions.
What exactly are you referring to when talking about "better play"?
The way I see it, RSL created actual danger during the first half down in MTY, everything else were half chances at best. Looping balls into the box hoping someone could knock it down but never a clear a chance a goal except for the one Morales shot straight at Orozco in the opening minutes of the game in Salt Lake and the one Espindola wasted even though he was wrongly called offsides. There was also one where Saborio headed straight at Orozco. Other than that, I'm struggling to recall clear cut chances created by RSL. Monterrey wasn't much better but they did create four or five scoring chances in Monterrey and that's without mentioning Will Johnson's handball in the box that should've been called. In Salt Lake, there was Suazo's shot that went slightly over the crossbar, Santana's one time shot off a cross that went just wide of the left post and Suazo's goal. Maybe one or two half chances in the second half but nothing to write home about.
Monterrey's possession was more meaningful since they used the ball to defend by not allowing RSL to see much of the ball and were much more intelligent when they had the ball compared to RSL. I said it before the series but it bears repeating, RSL and MTY are actually very similar teams with similar qualities, it's just that MTY does it better.
Mier, Basanta and Osorio pressured Saborio and Espindola enough to not allow them much space, in fact Osorio studied Saborio and was key in the tactical flexibility displayed by Vucetich as he alternated between fullback and centerback when Vucetich switched to a 5-3-2. Kreis never adapted or maybe there wasn't much he could do.
It's also disingenuous to act like MTY weren't favorites and after the two legged final, they proved exactly why they were favorites but with that said, this was RSL's game to lose. Even though MTY wasn't in top form, RSL had enough quality to win the championship but for whatever reason, they were unable to.
RSL is a team built around three or four key players while everyone else is pretty much a role player. You cut off the service to those key players and the team reverts to primitive, crosses into the box tactics. After spending half an hour lobbing balls into the box and not having any success, why didn't RSL adjust? Monterrey lost their captain and one of their top goal scorers after the first 20 minutes in the first game and still managed to adjust for the remainder of the games(s).
When MTY won the other night, the only thing I kept asking myself is why didn't RSL play the same way they did in the first half down in MTY?
Smart possession when it counted and quick passes in the attacking third, Monterrey had a hard time containing RSL and had little room to operate when they tried to attack RSL.
Kreis and the players overestimated their quality and opted to play their possession style against a team that is more than capable of taking the ball from you and make you chase a game. That's where experience kicks in.
I'm not sure how much success MTY will have going forward. FMF teams usually run on 1.5 to 2 year cycles and MTY seem to be on a bit of decline.
Same happened to Pachuca a while back.
Keeping in mind the salary cap issues MLS teams face, I think RSL did quite well. I saw a lot of their games, including the series vs Cruz Azul and always maintained my stance that RSL was good enough to win the tournament no matter who they faced and I was almost proven right.
I bet Korean and Japanese fans think the same thing about their clubs.
you have to be out of your god damn mind if you think the MFL is on par with the fkn j-league or k-league...