Changes to USOC on the way?

Discussion in 'US Open Cup' started by Yoshou, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Some of the changes that are mentioned:

    1. All MLS teams play in USOC. Perhaps coming in the round of 32 instead of the round of 16.

    2. Making the bidding system transparent.

    Having the MLS teams all play in USOC would seem to resolve the complaints some have about the extra games the play-in teams have, so that could be a good thing.

    However, I'm not sure making the bidding system more transparent resolves the other complaint of teams "buying" the cup. Does knowing that the Sounders paid X amount of dollars instead of not knowing how much was paid really diffuse that complaint?
     
  2. Sempuukyaku

    Sempuukyaku Member+

    Apr 30, 2002
    Seattle, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Nope, it does not...and I could care less. The fact that you can see how much a certain team bid doesn't detract from the fact that the losing team had an opportunity to win the bid and for whatever reason, did not. I would like to see the bidding system go away for the LOWER level teams if at all possible. But MLS level? Puh-leeze.
     
  3. cleazer

    cleazer Member+

    May 6, 2003
    Toledo, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, that would be great news. When was the last time all MLS teams entered, 2006?

    All those goofy and oddly-scheduled qualifying round games were tough to keep track of. Having one set date when all 16 MLS teams play would help scheduling and awareness a lot.

    The USOC could look radically different next year with all 16 MLS teams plus the NASL teams playing!


    If they kept the same number of entrants from each league as they had for this year, the 2012 USOC could look like this:

    16 MLS + 6 NASL + 11 USL Pro + 9 PDL + 8 USASA + 4 NPSL = 54 teams

    Round 1 = 8 USASA + 4 NPSL ==> 6 winners
    Round 2 = 6 winners + 9 PDL + 11 USL Pro + 6 NASL ==> 16 winners
    Round 3 = 16 winners + 16 MLS ==> pretty easy to figure out from here on
     
  4. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That seems reasonable to me. What's the most rounds and the most clubs the USOC has ever had?
     
  5. fifty7

    fifty7 Member

    Oct 27, 2010
    Long Island
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is very exciting news. :D
     
  6. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    How many times have we posted here about making the US Open Cup better and how many times did we think it wasn't going to happen. I think US Soccer has screatly been monitoring Big Soccer and the US Open Cup board. They have heard our cries.

    Sooner or later it was bound to happen and I'm glad they listened. I believe they will sanction the NASL. I also believe that six American NASL sides will be in the mix to play (ATL, CAR, FT.L, MIN, TB, S.A.).

    What they can do is expand the amount of bids for the NPSL sides, there is at least 5 to 6 conferences with two of them in the North East. Maybe the PDL gets a 10th spot as well.

    But right now this is fantastic news and when you do the right thing to change this tournament in the right direction, you won't get bashed anymore. Maybe DC United will get that road match in the Rounds Proper now. :D
     
  7. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    Let's quickly put up the list of clubs in each level of US Club Soccer

    MLS: CHI, CHV, CLB, COL, DAL, DC, HOU, KC, LA, NE, NY, PHI, POR, RSL, SEA, SJ = 16

    NASL: ATL, CAR, FT.L, MIN, San Antonio, TB = 6

    USL Pro: CHA, Dayton, FC NY, HAR, LA Blues, ORL, PIT, RIC, ROC, WIL = 11

    As of right now you would have 17 clubs in round 2 proper of the 2012 USOC, I think since the San Antonio Scorpions are considered a expansion side, they should enter Round 1 Proper with the rest of the lower levels. That would make it alot better and a bit more fair.

    If there is a USL Pro expansion side entering 2012 next season or a PDL team promotes themselves to USL Pro, they should also start in Round 1 of next season.

    What does everyone think about that?
     
  8. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If a team drops down, it would most likely be a USL Pro side, simply because NASL is D2 and USL Pro is D3. Fair or not, rank hath its privileges. :)
     
  9. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    True. But what I'm saying is that if all 16 MLS sides begins in Round 3, Round 2 has 17 sides (NASL & USL Pro). Unless you just want to have the expansion side San Antonio face against another NASL side, then that's fixed.

    if not then how many USASA sides will be entering from 8 (2 in each Region). You will need to expand the bid process in Round 1 for qualifying. That's all.
     
  10. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but my thoughts are this:

    Code:
    Round 1       Round 2         Round 3       Round 4       Round 5    etc
    
    USASA7  \
             ----  Winner  \
    USLPro11/               ----  Winner \
                   NASL1   /              ----  Winner \
    USASA6 \                      MLS16  /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner \
    PDL1   /                ----  Winner \
                   NASL2   /              ----  Winner /
    USASA5 \                      MLS15  /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL1  /                ----  Winner \
                   NASL3   /              ----  Winner \
    USASA4 \                      MLS14  /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner /
    PDL2   /                ----  Winner \
                   NASL4   /              ----  Winner /
    USASA3 \                      MLS13  /
             ----  Winner  \ 
    NPSL2  /                ----  Winner \
                   NASL5   /              ----  Winner \
    USASA2 \                      MLS12  /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner \
    PDL3   /                ----  Winner \
                   NASL6   /              ----  Winner /
    USASA1 \                      MLS11  /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL3  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro1 /              ----  Winner \
    PDL4   \                      MLS10  /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner /
    NPSL4  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro2 /              ----  Winner /
    PDL5   \                      MLS9   /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL5  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro3 /              ----  Winner \
    PDL6   \                      MLS8   /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner \
    NPSL6  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro4 /              ----  Winner /
    PDL7   \                      MLS7   /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL7  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro5 /              ----  Winner \
    PDL8   \                      MLS6   /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner /
    NPSL8  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro6 /              ----  Winner /
    PDL9   \                      MLS5   /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL9  /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro7 /              ----  Winner \
    PDL10  \                      MLs4   /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner \
    NPSL10 /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro8 /              ----  Winner /
    PDL11  \                      MLS3   /
             ----  Winner  \
    NPSL11 /                ----  Winner \
                   USLPro9 /              ----  Winner \
    PDL12   \                     MLS2   /
             ----  Winner  \                            ----  Winner /
    NPSL12  /               ----  Winner \
                   USLPro10/              ----  Winner /
                                  MLS1   /
    Now, clearly that has a ton of PDL and NPSL teams and it adds a round, but unless USOC closes off the competition to PDL, NPSL, USASA teams, I'm not sure there's a way around it. Alternatively, if they only qualify 10 USL Pro teams, you can add a USASA team so they get 8.
     
  11. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    I see where you have the USL Pro #11 side, but if I may make a change. NASL side #6 should be in the first round meaning expansion side San Antonio should start in round 1 and leave all 11 USL Pro sides in Round 2. Trying to be fair you know.
     
  12. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    In my opinion...

    - All American MLS teams should participate in the Open Cup.
    - Lower-level teams should have home-field advantage by default.

    Keep the bidding system if you must, but only between teams of the same level.
     
  13. chapka

    chapka Member+

    May 18, 2004
    Haverford, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wouldn't it make more sense, instead of adding the MLS teams in the round of 32, to add a second Round of 16? Bring in the worst eight MLS teams where the MLS qualifiers enter now, then have those eight winners play the top eight MLS seeds in the next round.

    Simple, increases the chance for dramatic MLS/D2 upsets (because D2 teams will be playing New England instead of Los Angeles), and doesn't mess with the current first two rounds, which seem to work pretty well. It only adds one date to the tournament, and every MLS team will play either the same number of games or fewer games as they would have under the old system.
     
  14. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unfortunately, NASL is the D2 league and USL Pro is tbe D3 league. As such NASL teams rank higher than USL Pro teams.
     
  15. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Personally, I think we should bring the qualification process for all of the top 4 tiers into the USOC.

    Here's my proposition:

    USASA holds its own preliminary qualification to narrow down to 24 teams, 6 from each of its 4 regions.

    Then we have US OpenCup official games:

    1st Qualification Round:
    120 teams - All 58 US PDL teams, all 38 NPSL teams, and the 24 USASA teams enter here

    2nd Qualification Round:
    60 teams - Winners of 1QR

    From here on we are in the "Proper rounds" as they are known in the FA Cup
    1st Round:
    30 teams - Winners of 2QR

    2nd Round:
    32 teams - The 6 US NASL teams, and 11 US USL Pro teams enter, joining the 15 winners from 1R

    3rd Round:
    32 teams - 16 US MLS teams enter, joining the 16 winners from 2R

    4th Round:
    16 teams - winners of 3R

    Quarter Finals:
    8 teams - winners of 4R

    Semi Finals:
    4 teams - winners of QF

    Final:
    2 teams - winners of SF


    All matchups, including which team is home, are done with random draws. All rounds through the 3rd round are divided up into at least 4 regions, to help reduce travel. The final is held at a neutral site determined before the qualification rounds begin.

    As the leagues change number of teams, we can adjust the number of USASA teams entering, and also add or remove rounds as necessary, but I think that having all teams from the top 4 tiers involved in the "official" tournament makes it seem more "Open".
     
  16. Orange Sounder

    Aug 8, 2009
    Redmond, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'd be for this. I think it would have been awesome to go to Bremerton for an away game in the third round of the USOC this year.
     
  17. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    There would be way to many amateur sides. that's why there has to be qualifying. Same thing for FA Cup in England. The lower level and pub sides go thru qualifying to get into Round 1 Proper.

    Leave the qualifying and allow all the pro sides the automatic bids.
     
  18. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look, this is not that complicated.

    1) Have all MLS teams enter at the same round. No more play-in games.

    Rework previous rounds however one has to in order to make it work.

    2) Get rid of the "bid" system entirely and have a draw, like every other legit tournament.

    As for the final, either do it by draw or have a set location(s) for finals. For a large country like the USA, maybe a rotation should be set: Year 1 = East Coast, Year 2 = West Coast, Year 3 = Midwest/Mountain.

    Personally, I'd like to see it done by draw.
     
  19. chapka

    chapka Member+

    May 18, 2004
    Haverford, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, of course it's not that complicated if you ignore the problems and just say "make it work somehow" instead.
     
  20. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Right now, even with the external qualifying, we have 9 PDL, 5 NPSL, and 8 USASA teams in the first round, for a total of 22 amateur teams. In my proposal, we up that to 30 in the first round proper, which is not a drastic leap. The main difference is that the amateur sides may have to play against teams from different leagues in qualification. We have 2 rounds of qualification which follow the same rules and format as the rest of the tournament, and are considered a part of the competition. This is the same as how the FA cup handles it with their multiple qualifying rounds, preliminary round, and extra preliminary round.
     
  21. ProdigalReality

    ProdigalReality New Member

    Jul 26, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Final would have to be a draw. Rotation would kill fan attendance at the final.
     
  22. DynamoEAR

    DynamoEAR Member+

    May 30, 2011
    HoustAtlantaDMV
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's about time some changes happen.

    plus if they give lower division teams host opportunities, then that will help MLS clubs grow their brand as well.
     
  23. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not only that, but one of the main complaints about the MLS Cup is the neutral final. Where's the motivation for SKC fans to show up to watch the Sounders and Fire play in the finals. At least with a draw you're pretty much guaranteed to have a crowd that gives a @#$# about the result.
     
  24. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    That was done because the NASL was stripped of their Second division status by US Soccer and got it back after that meeting before the 2011 season started. What will happen I believe is this. The NPSL sides will have to go back with the USASA to qualify Those teams in that one division of PDL East Conference will merge back into two from three.

    The question is this. Will it be Rounds 1 thru 3 Proper then QF, SF, F or Rounds 1 thru 4 where MLS will be in Round 3 & Round of 16 is Round 4. That's the question.
     
  25. chapka

    chapka Member+

    May 18, 2004
    Haverford, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, the NPSL had been working to get automatic bids since well before the whole NASL debacle; they weren't pulled in just to make up numbers. I'd be surprised if they had to go back to USASA qualifying. Technically they have the same status within the USASA as the PDL does, and they've been trying for years to get equivalent status for the Open Cup.

    I'd be surprised if the NPSL got pushed out completely in any reorganization.
     

Share This Page