Changes for Costa Rica/Mexico?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is it.

    -Maybe you play Edu or Dwilliams next to Bradley instead of Jones
    - If Donovan is still not playing then you pick from Corona or Gatt - both are young wings who provide speed and width which is desperately needed. If you really want the experience then play Gomez but I would prefer the youth

    I also understand the argument to not change the back line and play Gonzo nest to Cameron. I am 50/50 on that at this point
     
  2. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assuming LD is still on vacation and Dolo is also out, I'd make 1 change for sure. Here's the full list.

    1) Bocanegra must start.
    2) Play an actual wide player wide right/left. Or at least one with some actual offensive ability. It can't be Jones, Williams, or Zusi. Bradley, I could take. I'd prefer Dempsey. On the left, maybe give Shea a shot. I'd prefer Beasley or Feilhaber, but JK apparently doesn't like players who can score.

    3) Don't play Altidore alone up top. Or as the lead striker. We never score when that happens.
    4) I'd consider going with Vets (Boca, Beasley, Benny, DeMerit) over youngsters, at least for now.

    What I'd do:
    -------------------Howard-------------------
    Cameron---DeMerit---Boca---F. Johnson
    --------------------Edu---------------------
    Dempsey----Jones-----Bradley----Beasley
    -------------------Gomez-------------------

    If you can't stand DeMerit, then put Cameron in at CB and let Parkhurst play RB. Or if you can't stand DMB, put Benny or Shea at LM.

    The other option is to go all in with the new guys. This is the route I think JK will take.

    What JK will do:

    -----------------Howard----------------
    Chandler---Gonzo---Cameron---F. Johnson
    ------------------Edu---------------------
    Jones------------Bradley----------Shea
    ------------Dempsey---Jozy-----------
     
  3. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah that is incorrect. He plays as an 8. Roman Neustadter is the dmid for Schalke... Jones plays in front of him in a #8 role and until recently Holtby was in front of him as a 10

    The problem is Jones and Bradley play the same position and they have not found a good way to function together. Which is why

    1. Bradley looked a million times better when Jones was subbed off vs. Honduras
    2. Jones best performances for the Nats have been camp cupcake when Bradley was not around and the home Jamaica game where the attack looked very solid

    The absolutely most important change that needs to be made is to not play Bradley and Jones next to each other. We want to believe it can work because of the Scotland game but I am sorry at this point that is the exception not the rule.

    So speaking of changes for me here they are -

    1. Pick Jones or Bradley and play one of them - I don't care which one I think both are good and can fulfill the role
    2. Add width - ideally its Donovan and Shea but if you have to play Corona or Gatt. Other options here are Gomez or Agudelo has looked dangerous at times out on the right

    Where does that leaves us? Depends on how you want to fill the void left by removing one of Jones or Bradley. In the perfect world its an attacking #10... unfortunately I don't see that player in our pool. Corona could be that player but currently isn't.

    So for me it would be

    -----------------------Jozy----------------------------
    --------------------Demps----------------------------
    Shea----------Bradley/Jones--------------------Dono
    ---------------------Edu------------------------------
    FJ--------------------------------------------Chandler
    -------------Gonzo--------Cameron------------------
    ---------------------Howard--------------------------


    My slightly out there idea is that if a 4-3-3 has to be the formation

    -------------------------Jozy--------------------------
    Demps------------------------------------------Dono
    ----------------Davis/Torres------------------------
    -------------------------------Bradley/Jones--------
    ------------------------Edu-----------------------------
    FJ--------------------------------------------Chandler
    -------------Gonzo--------------Cam------------------


    If we want a 4-3-3 then we need someone in the mid field who can be that creative midfielder. We don't have a true #10 but Torres or Davis can be that play maker with their passing ability. The other option with this is to put Dempsey up top, insert Shea out on the left and bench Jozy
     
  4. ktorp18

    ktorp18 Member

    Aug 31, 2012
    I think they can be on the field at the same time if there is a #10 in front of them. The problems that occur when they are both on the field usually have to do with the fact that Danny Williams is on the field too.
     
  5. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not in their current roles they can't If you believe one of them can be played as a #6 then it could work.. but right now with them both functioning as #8's, I don't see it working very well with both of them on the field

    I believe Bradley and Jones to play at their best need a true #6 like a Williams or Edu on the field with them.
     
  6. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Now I am confused and I mean that sincerely. I dont know who is right any more when it comes to the midfield so I just line up Bradley and Jones in a 4231. Maybe the midfield is a bigger problem than anybody would have thought when this campaign kicked off.
     
  7. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here is what I'd do:

    -------------EJ------------Altidore-------------
    ---------Dempsey---------------Donovan-----
    ----------------------Bradley-------------------
    -----------------------Edu----------------------
    Johnson-----------------------------Chandler
    -----------------Cameron--Gonzo------------
    --------------------Howard--------------------

    A Y-shaped midfield rather than the RoboBob Box midfield or the Klinsi blob midfield, but let the dual attacking mids pinch inside as needed, circa 2009-2010. Define Edu as the stay-at-home DM, shielding the CBs. Let Dempsey and Donovan create with Bradley providing support, combination play, and work-rate. Feed EJ and Altidore in the box.

    If Donovan isn't ready, put Kljestan in that role. Have Feilhaber available on the bench.

    Use Gomez as the 2nd half striker sub for either EJ or Jozy, if offense is needed. Have Jones ready as a second half sub if we are protecting a lead.

    Leave the back-4 the same as at Honduras and start to build some continuity and trust.

    I'm NOT a big fan of using Dempsey in midfield these days. His value closer to goal has been clearly proven in our first 7 Qualifiers. But especially if Donovan is lacking, we need Dempsey's guile and experience in midfield to create opportunities, and his ability to ghost into the box as a 3d attacker to finish opportunities.

    Go after Costa Rica. Score some goals.
     
  8. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    They functioned together fine in Krasnodar.
     
  9. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley and Jones are two of our best players. If they are fit and available they will both start for the for foreseeable future.

    If Shea returns to his 2011 form and Donovan decides to resume his career than you may see a 4-2-3-1 with MB and JJ at #6 and #8. If not then you will continue to see MB and JJ as dual #8s in a 4-3-XX.

    Any starting option that does not include MB and JJ if they are available is too unrealistic to even discuss.
     
  10. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No argument that they are 2 of our best players. But unfortunately they play the same position. People continue to push for one of them to be the #6 but neither of them are a #6. They don't have the discipline to stay home.


    I was a big supporter of the dual #8's but at this point as I said earlier it doesn't work. It has worked here and there but as a whole its a failure.
     
  11. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You could play them in a pulley dual 8/6 system. One player goes forward while the other stays back. They're both smart enough players to perform that role, and it would give each player a chance to rest why the other player ventured forward to support the attack.

    The issue is that we don't have a proven traditional #10 to play in front of them like you would see in a 4-2-3-1. We might have capable players, but Klinsmann hasn't really tried to identify them yet. In this respect, he really wasted our friendlies.
     
  12. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It may not have worked as well as you want it to but you don't know how bad it could be until try to replace either with someone else!
     
  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Spurs were winning with Dempsey in that 10 position. Before people tell us that Dempsey isnt a 10 in the conventional sense, let me say u r right but he scores goals and creativity can come from the wings.
     
  14. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree. Lets not forget that while the first JK match had MB and JJ as dual #8s the next 9 matches had only 1 and sometimes 0 often in a 4-2-3-1.

    Early in JK's tenure we tried other combinations including Torres, Donovan, Dempsey, and at CC2012 Feilhaber as a #10. We really just don't have that kind of (a complete) player in the pool.
     
  15. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You mean like the 3-1 Guatemala victory or the 1-0 win in which the US dominated vs. Jamaica

    Sorry those have been the two best played non friendly games under JK and the thing they have in common? JJ and Bradley were not on the field together

    Sure you can try to play them in a pully system. But my initial post about not playing them together was in response to someone saying we need to play players where they play for club and then wanted to play Jones as a 6. Jones is not a 6 for his club

    My opinion is if you force either of them to be a stay at home 6 you take away some of the strength of their game
     
  16. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree completely this. As I said in my initial post about the topic

    But I believe fully that if you want a 3 man central midfield you need a true #6, #8, and #10. Could a pully system work? Sure but that is not what we are currently using and JK doesn't appear to have any desire to play without a true #6. So, as it currently stands I believe one of them needs to be benched.
     
  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like the 4-1-3-2 we played v Canada in CC2013 with MB in the Evans role and Edu for Dreads. I wonder if one would hear the same complaints about lack of width and that Bradley is not a "creative attacking midfielder". :cool:
     
  18. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The 3-1 victory v A&B was just as dominant with Edu #6 and MB, JJ dual #8s. We tied on the road at Guatemala with Edu #6 and Bradley #8, Jones #7.
     
  19. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, if you're going to talk about what JK will do (rather than should do), then yes I agree with this.

    But who plays as a #10? Dempsey can play as a second striker, but then the wingers need to track back 100% of the time. If we had a traditional #10, the (hypothetical) wingers would have less defensive responsibility and could create lethal attacks in transition. But Dempsey sucks when he has to track back that far (he's not good at transitioning defense to attack), and we have no great wingers.

    So what do you do? Play Jones and Bradley as dual 8s, slide a 6 behind them to give them more freedom to advance, put Dempsey on one wing, and find the best speedy winger you can for the opposite wing.

    -------- Altidore (Gomez) -------
    F. Johnson ------------ Dempsey
    ----- Bradley ------ Jones --------
    -------- Williams (Edu) ----------
    Cameron -------------- Chandler (Parkhurst)
    ------- Besler ----- Gonzalez -----
     
  20. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thought there was no point in discussing lineups that did not have JJ and Bradley starting?

    So a tie in Guatemala is the support that JJ and MB need to start together? Sorry I have hopes for much more than that from the Nats.


    I fully get and agree that JJ and MB are two of the best we have, but its not just about putting the best 11 on the field... its about putting the best team on a field. Which sometimes the best team is not the best 11 individual players

    I would not be opposed to the lineup Mr. Martin posted. I think the y midfield is worth a shot as the y gives room for width but it also allows for Dempsey and Donovan to come central as they often like to do.
     
  21. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is an option. If we insist on keeping JJ and MB as dual #8's then yes speed on the wing is needed. So bring in Gatt, Shea, Corona or try FJ or Castillo at wing.

    My suggestion is scrap the 4-3-3 and play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-3-1-1

    Have Bradley or JJ next to a true #6. My belief is the best lineup we could field right now would be

    ---------------Jozy--------------
    -------------Demps---------------
    Shea-------JJ/MB----------Dono
    --------------Edu-------------------
    FJ-----------------------------TC
    --------Gonzo---Cam-----------

    I won't write it out but it seems how that easily becomes a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2
     
  22. ktorp18

    ktorp18 Member

    Aug 31, 2012
    Taking away some of the strengths of their game doesn't really matter. Jones at the 6 is still better than Danny Williams at the 6. You don't need Jones going forward as often if you have Bradley going forward and Dempsey playing in front of them.
     
  23. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, it is somewhat similar. I never had a problem with the "system" vs Canada, just the odd use of a low-creativity-worker-bee Evans as the #8 instead of a more creative #8 like Diskerud (especially since Evans was really there to be an emergency outside back).

    1) We really don't have any proven starting wingers. Shea will be working his way into Stoke's team and coming off his long injury/offseason layoff, so Shea won't be ready to start vs Costa Rica. Gatt is a nice sub to have and I'd call him in for a bench role, but he's not ready to start a meaningful game for the US. Beasley doesn't seem to rate these days, but I'd be open to calling him in for a look as a bench option. So, why set up a system with wingers if you don't really have any starting-quality wingers? The Y-midfield works for the US pool at the moment. Keep a winger or 2 around for change-of-pace.

    2) Bradley has never been a #10 (one of many reasons why he got so much flack a few years ago; people wishing for a #10), but he is a whole lot more creative than Evans is as a #8. Bradley looks like a Prototype #8 in a Y-midfield to me. Jones is an ideal backup for this role if Bradley isn't available or is playing poorly.

    3) Edu is a slightly better #6 than Beckerman, though I had zero problem with Beckerman starting the Canada game -- good level for him.
     
    deuteronomy repped this.
  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then please put that real team together where you drop either MB or Jones for the next 2 WCQ in March. Note neither Donovan or Shea will likely be there since neither will have played any matches in 4 months!
     
  25. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Wasn't there a time when you said something along the lines of "Bradley is our fifth best midfielder; behind Beckerman and Edu"?
     
    deuteronomy and EruditeHobo repped this.

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