I'm with Fuzz in that the market exists in Toronto. The right type of people are in that city. The problem is MLSE. Probably the worst group that has ever happened to a city in North America and their sports teams. MLSE is a failure of a sports management organization. Their not going anywhere, but as long as they run TFC like they have been, internationals won't be nearly as excited to jump on board as supporters as they might elsewhere. Instead, they'll keep streaming games from their home leagues. I hope something changes. Although, given Canadian immigration in recent years, Vancouver could be equally as likely to reach a point where they are capable of maintaining a 50000+ seat stadium. And they're certainly in the right region for it, with Seattle and Portland nearby.
FIFA certification? Acceptable to FIFA? You make it sound as if it is something difficult to get. Moncton's 10.000 seat two stand stadium will be a venue for the WWC. So will Ottawa and it hasn't even been built yet. FIFA embezzlers (err inspectors) visited a pre-construction site there for their holiday (err inspection) of Canadian venues. Anything FIFA would require is available in almost any stadium that hasn't been condemned. All the new stadiums in Canada consulted FIFA before construction. They consulted, not bowed. Not useable for baseball? Are the Expos coming back? Seriously where are you coming up with this stuff. I hate to act like such an ass but somebody might read some of your musings and take it as fact. You still haven't said why you think the RC is unacceptable. Read this Uefa Guide to Quality Stadiums there's nothing especially different/difficult in there to make a stadium suitable for UEFA or in other words FIFA.
This is the essential line, I think: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...4e7ba0bbea6507df5d55.html#fAvmb6FeLj9GHuc7.99 If the priority is indeed going to new places, Canada has a strong chance, but only if that is the case.
It also helps us that North America is overdue to host it as well. Since the US and Mexico are the only other countries in North America who could host it, and have already hosted it, we've got a lot going for us. There's still one very large hurdle though: stadiums. A very huge investment is going to need to be made, and return on that investment probably won't be all that high. So we're probably going to either need governments to pony up and hope that added tourism covers it, or we're going to need some very rich people who are very passionate about soccer to step up.
by linking that article, I was suggesting we abandon any notion of a bid. A(ny) competing bid from the U.S.A. would just blow us out of the water.....while we are scrambling to find 10 - 12 stadiums that met minimum standards...they would just throw out a list of, what, 40 or 50 stadiums that far exceed the minimums and say "pick 'em"....add in the money from US TV (NBC and Fox would go crazy bidding against each other for this) and FIFA's insatiable thirst for money would have them singing God Bless America in a heart beat.
Would be awesome to see Canada host a world cup. This will make sure for sure Canada is qualified for a world cup.
Read what I quoted after. the whole point of this discussion is that its yet uncertain. If the factors you've listed were all that mattered, the world cup would be in the US every time. The 1994 world cup remains, even today, the most profitable one ever. It's a forgone conclusion that they can pack 80k-100k stadiums for every game. But that was the case for their 2022 bid as well. If you go back through previous pages of this thread, as well as various others all over this sub-forum, you'll see we've discussed this. The only possible way Canada can put a realistic bid together is to use CFL infrastructure. In that sense we are very lucky right now. Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg and Regina all are building world class stadiums that are designed to FIFA specifications. Calgary and Moncton/Halifax are having preliminary discussions about CFL stadium construction as well. We are also lucky that CFL rules require any stadium to expand to at least 40,000 to hold a Grey cup,which is also the minimum number for group stage world cup matches. Thus, the investment required, while high, is not unreasonable. The only significant work is needed in Montreal and Toronto. the 2015 Women's world cup will be a huge litmus test. The CSA has stated that it expects its performance in 2015 to be the foundation for its WC bid. It might be a long shot for sure, but its damn interesting.
You are being disingenuous by stating that all world cups would be in the USA if that was all that mattered. We know that WCs move around from country to country and continent to continent and my point was that if NA is being considered (which would be a pre-requisite for even a Canadian bid) and it is us v them...they win hands down. Sure, you can use CFL infrastructure...if the CFL wasn't using it. There's the point I was making.....we would need to twist and contort to find a minimum number of stadiums that meet the minimum requirements.....and that is just the stadium requirements...do cities like Moncton, Halifax, Regina (no disrespect) meet other FIFA requirements in terms of hosting infrastructure (practice facilities, hotel rooms, transport infrastructure, etc)...I don't know but I bet it is "tight". Put that up against a USA bid that would be in major cities and some of the best stadiums in the world. While we struggle to get to the minimu...keep in mind they are so rich in stadia that their last bid rejected (amongst others) Soldier Field in Chicago.....a stadium of the quality that we could only dream of including and in one of the world's top cities.
Perfect timing, Daniel Squizzato did the work and collected all the facts: http://m.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/10/10/race-canada-continues-plan-bid-2026-world-cup
Yes I was, and my points stands. If both Canada and the US bid for 2026, the decision depends on their priorities. Like Gulati said, if their wish is to award the games to new lands, then Canada has a shot irrespective of what the US does. This is the whole point. CFL season normally starts late June. World cup is 4 weeks, somewhere in the 3rd week of May to the 2nd week of July. A compromise to replace all the turf with grass and slightly delay the CFL season is a trivial issue. True, but again the US is the exception. Consider cities from other world cups. Since I can't analyse their infrastructure quickly, i'll use population as a reasonably proxy for all the things you mentioned. First off, as a baseline: Moncton 70,000 Halifax: 413,000 Regina: 193,000 Now consider that in Brazil, cities like Cuiaba and Natal do not have significant tourism infrastructure. Half of the hosts in South Africa are very small towns with negligible infrastructure: Nelspruit: 58,000 Polokwane: 130,000 Bloemfontein: 256,000 Rustenburg:105,000 Port Elizabeth: 300,000 Perhaps you will say South Africa is the exception, given that its the first WC in Africa: Kashima, Japan: 66,000 Ōita, Japan: 475,000 Rifu, Japan: 31,000 Fukuroi, Japan: 84,000 Jeju City, South Korea 408,000 Jeonju, South Korea: 654,000 Another exception perhaps? Kaiserslautern, Germany: 100,000 Gelsenkirchen, Germany: 257,000 Nuremberg, Germany:495,000 Stuttgart, Germany: 613,000 France? Lens: 36,000 Sait-Denis: 105,000 Saint-Étienne:178,000 Montpellier:255,000 How about looking forward to Russia? Kaliningrad: 431,000 Saransk: 297,000 Sochi: 343,000 I won't bring up Qatar, since its an exception in so many ways. But my point is, USA is an aberration. It is perfectly normal for smaller cities to be viable for group stage matches. Depending on what FIFA chooses to prioritize, Canada or the USA have a shot. Squizz put it best:
Canada will get a dry run with the WWC. Now in 2026 things like the proper upgrades needed to Olympic in Montreal could be done, the same with McMahon or a new stadium in Calgary. Montreal would be a key so that all three of the biggest Metros will be a host sight. Commonwealth is built exactly for such an event and have made the proper seat upgrades. A stadium in Halifax by then could also be built using the Hamilton, Ottawa, and most likley the Toronto suburb model stadiums. Halifax being a port city can follow a model that has been used for Olympics in the past with the floating Hotels, cruise ships acting as hotels. BC place is one of the nicest stadiums in the Americas. Rogers Center may not even be needed with the Argos and Hamilton both having 40K stadiums in the GTA. Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, GTA (Hamilton and North GTA burbs), Ottawa, Montreal, Montcton, Halifax, as well as BMO and Saputo. Could even be something in Quebec city by then as well. That is 14 stadiums with most that will already be in place by the end of the decade. Could Windsor be a host city with Games being played at the Silverdome? Could the logisitcs be right and would it be possible to get some Cruise ship floating hotels on the Great Lakes? Would it be possible to move the WC up a month so that it ends in the Middle of June instead of July to keep the CFL in place. Teams could come to train in the US with its vast amount of stadiums and no football at that time of year before the WC begins. Lots of other sports action going on that time of year as well for the mass of supporters to go to NHL, MLB, and NBA going on. Basketball and hockey are very big in Europe as well as baseball in Asia. Many Countries from around the World in other places have a strong following for at least one of these sports with many of their own top National Players now playing in all three; MLB, NHL, NBA.
Really well said. Though you might be a bit off track with the situation in the GTA. I don't know where you're conjuring a "Toronto suburban stadium" for the Argos. At this time the plan for them is up in the air with no certainty. The more probable option suggested is for them to move to BMO, and no other initiatives are yet evident. Also, BMO and Saputo would never be used for actual FIFA matches, they are too small. Though I could imagine by then BMO being significantly upgraded, or perhaps replaced, to become large enough. This is much more likely if the Argos move in. Also playing in Detroit would never happen, that requires the approval of the USSF, and they have no reason to give it, especially if they are bidding as well. Also there are too many problems with foreign visitors needing the paperwork to get to the US. otherwise you raise many good points.
Re the Argos, They may be the main argument to support the building of the required 80k stadium for the opener and final in Toronto. They could build the 80k stadium with 20-40k of it being temporary and removed after the WC and the stadium then used as the new home of the Argos. I believe that this sort of thing has been done before. Forget SkyDome, it's a terrible venue for soccer.
We can discuss the details and it is interesting to do so. Canada has a $1.8 trillion economy and would have a decade to prepare while starting a significant infrastructure base. It is therefore not a question of whether Canada is capable of hosting the WC if we wanted to. Ultimately, for good or bad, it comes down to FIFA. As we all know, that makes it a political decision and, more to the point, a political decision made by individuals with a level of corruption that would cause a third-world dictator to blush. So the actual merits of a bid (by Canada or anyone else) aren't really what determines the winner.
I'm of the opinion that it's a bad idea for a country to build new stadiums that it otherwise doesn't need, just to host a WC. Construction like that always ends up as a white elephant after the event is over. Certainly, Canada has the economic wherewithal to build the needed stadiums and infrastructure, but it strikes me as a waste to do so just for the sake of a WC. The WC isn't really worth spending significant taxpayer money.
Sure, that is 14 stadiums....but 4 of them don't exist (Moncton, Halifax, "suburban GTA Argos stadium", Quebec City). 2 exist but are currently half the minimum of 40k needed for group games (BMO, Saputo) and while both have been described as expandable I have never heard anyone describe them as expandable to 40k. 2 will be about 50 years old by the time 2026 rolls around (Olympic Stadium and Commonwealth)...when was the last time someone bid successfully with two 50 year old stadiums that were not going to be upgraded so much it was like building a new one. 4 would need significant upgrades in temporary seating and other amenties or be built new (Ottawa, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Hamilton) Leaving you with BC Place as, likely, the only stadium that you could just show FIFA/the world and say "see it's right there and ready". And, after all that twisting and turning and spending.....we still don't have a single stadium capable of hosting the opening match or the final! A while back in this thread I posted the capital/stadium costs of the last few world cups.....it is in the Billions of dollars (I recall about $3B + inflation)....yes there is a range between Germany and South Africa and Brazil, etc.....but it is a very large number and we would be at the upper end of that so where is this money coming from? And, again, we would be bidding against a neighbour that is so stadium rich, they can afford to leave out a stadium (Solider Field) that would surpass in quality all of the 14 above (+/- BC Place) in a city like Chicago! I can't think of a time when a non-joint bid had a tournament stadium that was outside the borders of the host country.....there may have been but I can't think of one. Sure......move it up a month and rejg all of the major European leagues/tournaments....FIFA won't mind telling UEFA to have the CL final in April .....these are not impossibilities but when you are asking for support/votes to host...we will be presenting that inferior stadium plan noted above and asking for such logistical concessions....the Americans will just be laying out a very long list of stadiums of world class quality (heck just the 29 NFL stadiums alone would blow us out of the water) and saying "you tell us when you want to play". It is not impossible for us to host but in a straight head to head bid we are far inferior to the Americans both in the logistal/infrastructure preparedness and in the very important "revenue generation potential" for FIFA. As the American guy said in that BBC article and as others have pointed out...if FIFA comes out and says "new territory is paramount" we probably get a boost....if it is a straight "who has the best bid" we should just keep our powder dry.
FIFA says a lot of idealistic sounding things, but often those things fall by the wayside when money concerns come up. As for a joint Canada/US bid, we can forget about that. Two main reasons: 1. FIFA doesn't like them and has stated they won't be entertaining any mroe going forward and even more so... 2. There's nothing in it for the US. They can host on their own, and sharing with us would be more of a pain than a benefit. There's already plenty of muttering within US soccer circles that we ride their coattails too much.
Just throwing a few things out there as Canada may be a bit more closer to being prepared than people. As for the Stadium in the Northern Burbs for the Argos all of the CFL talk from the owner is pointing that way and BMO is really not an option they are looking at right now. They are currently looking at 3 or 4 different proposals for Stadiums in Municipalities in the York, Durham, and Peel Areas. The stadium is looking like it would become part of one of the redevelopment projects that are on the table for some of these areas and Municipalities. Agree Saputo and BMO would be too small but so would montcton than making a stadium with the similiar blue prints in Landsdowne Park and Hamilton for a stadium in Halifax. Commonwealth would certainly be a stadium that would be worthy of hosting the finals of a World cup, Toronto is never going to see an 80,000 seat stadium. Olympic Stadium was also built for such events but as we all know it has been left so unattended that major work needs to be done. It is the only domed stadium that is closed in the Winter.
Well As we said the US has the ability to host every four years as well as England. This is on the premise that FIFA is looking at new countries to host. Obviously Canada does not have everything in place as of yet but they are pretty close at this time. Also with Canada's system of getting stadiums built through hosting of major events getting a bid for the World Cup could get the financing needed for the stadiums in which they are still trying to secure. Getting the WWC is great and that could possibily be the limit for Canada who knows.
I hate sounding like the negative ninny on this because there is nothing I would like better than a WC in Canada but the notion that we are pretty close is just wrong. It is not impossible but we are pretty far from being not quite at the minimum level of ready....in other words....we are very far from having the sporting infrastructure to do this. If we accept this notion that we are nearly there, it will result in a patchwork bid of poorly conceived temporary stadiums and expansions that will inevitably fall short when the voters look at in comparison with any of the other bidders (Mexico, USA, Columbia...so far just from this region). If we are to bid, then we need to do it seriously and take a look at what stadiums have been used in the past, what stadiums are likely to be proposed by the competitors and really match/exceed that. It costs a lot to host a WC.....trying to do it on the cheap will look like you are, well, trying to do it on the cheap.
While I very much respect your cynicism, we know that the CSA WILL place a bid. As such my priority is to figure out what's the best way to do it. If we are not good enough, let the FIFA voters make that call. Goal.com has a writeup talking about the real issues why this might not happen. Infrastructure is not one of them: http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4172...world-cup-2026-to-canada-why-not?ICID=HP_FA_4 You raise a lot of good points here. But first, lets just set a baseline for what a winning bid needs. I'll use South Africa as the example: 10 Stadiums: 84,500 64,000 63,000 55,500 43,000 42,000 42,000 41,000 41,000 38,500 Secondly, what does a Final venue need? France: 80,000 Korea: 72,000 Germany: 74,000 SA:84,500 Brazil: 77,000 Russia: 90,000 First of all BMO and Saputo are simply not big enough, there is not point even considering them in their current form. Ignore that. Ottawa, Regina, Winnipeg and Hamilton are designed to be expanded for Grey Cups. The cost of this, included ripping out the turf, is a basic requirement for the bid. Winnipeg thinks it can make a significant amount of profit with just one Grey cup, so I can't imagine the expense of expansion being a significant limitation. The quality of this isn't necessarily "Patchwork", it can be very nicely done if they choose to. Calgary has not yet made concrete plans about replacing Mcmahon, but its in the works. Given that city's wealth I expect a high quality stadium will be made. There should be definite plans by the time the bid is due (2019) Commonwealth Stadium has gone through a minor renovation in the past years and a much more major one seems like a reasonable requirement. Nothing showstopping about it. It's got to happen. Olympic stadium is the key. It needs a LOT of work. But remember that for the '76 Olympics, its capacity was 70k-75k. This was reduced for baseball. Assuming any major work happens, bringing the capacity back up is not much more work. World cups have a history of renovated historical stadiums, this is nothing special. Montreal would never build a new stadium nor will it ever demolish the O. It's either renovation or bust. Atlantic Canada is interesting yet unpredictable. CFL has stated it wishes to add a team there, with Moncton doing the most work to get it done. If one does happen, expansion for WC purposes is feasible. But its so uncertain right now, there's not much point speculating. Toronto... well I have no idea. There's really too much talk and too little action to say anything about it. All I can add is that Canada's largest city needs a 55,000+ venue for the bid to happen, and Skydome is most probably not good enough. Thus 10 Stadiums: -Montreal: 72,000 -Commonwealth Stadium: 60,000 (further expansion possible) -BC Place: 60,000 -Toronto Magical Dream Rainbow Stadium: 60,000 (40,000 expanded to 60,000?) -Calgary: 40,000-60,000 -Winnipeg:40,000 -Regina:40,000 -Hamilton:40,000 -Ottawa: 40,000 -Atlantic Canada Hypothetical Stadium: 40,000 This is a non issue. The CFL season starts last week of June, World cups historically have ended June 30th to July 11th. Delaying the CFL a week or 2 is a basic part of any plan.
Argos won't be going to BMO, that would mean MLSE buying them and that whole rumour started because an MLSE official was around the Argos training area. They've looked at buying them three times (the last two years ago) and they're no closer now. As for where a Toronto suburban stadium was conjured David Braley said in a radio interview during halftime of the Argos vs Lions game, the Argos will eventually make money once a new stadium is secured for the franchise. He said three communities are looking at land for the new stadium and a location, as well as the finances to secure the new stadium, should be completed within a year. In the halftime interview of the Lions/Argos game he said: Question: You've done this in British Colombia...I remember coming here and thinking I'm seeing the last days of the BC Lions when you'd have nine, ten, twelve thousand Braley: In BC we did the demographics, we've now completed the demographics in Toronto we've got 14% Italian fans in Toronto so you've got to build your marketing programs and programs around the demographic and once you do that and reach out and touch them then they start to become your partners and Waterboys and in our case our Double Blues Club in Toronto. It's a very slow hard working process but you're also fighting the big leagues in the sense of Major League Baseball and hockey. We had the best attendance and atmosphere for a home game in Toronto, I think it was 28 or 29 thousand last week for our home opener in Toronto. Everybody's talking about the buzz and if we start putting them in regularly we can bring those fans back to the Canadian Football League in Toronto What we intend to do is have a 27-29 thousand seat stadium in all likelihood in north Toronto, Vaughan, Markham maybe Mississauga and the plans are being worked on outside the Argonauts themselves, they're to sell tickets and put the house in order for the team. Outside I have my construction companies working on where we would be and where we could set up and where we could build a stadium and who's gonna fund it Question: Do you have a timeline? Braley: Under 5 years. They (Rogers) wouldn't kick us out on the street if we needed an extra year but it would be best if we had our own facility, if it's three years fine if it's four years fine if it's six years it'll come to pass.