Canadian Soccer Association to bid for 2026 World Cup

Discussion in 'Canada' started by EPJr, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. mrstepp817

    mrstepp817 New Member

    Aug 17, 2012
    Mississauga, Ontario
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That could be the compromise that works, but yes pushing the season back a month means really horrible weather during the playoffs potentially
     
  2. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Or they could compress the schedule a bit, no bye weeks, maybe a mid week game some time? We are talking 14 years from now, maybe medical tech will advance enough for football to be played 2-3 times a week? I :)
     
  3. adrenaline11

    adrenaline11 Member+

    Jul 29, 2010
    Toronto
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Or depending on the number of teams, reduce the schedule but charge more per ticket.
     
  4. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Well, just last year Al Sadd won the AFC Champions League and finished 3rd at the Club World Cup. And that's a club that hasn't won the QSL in several years. It's not a great league by any means, but it is a bit better than generally given credit for.
     
  5. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  6. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    It not that much honestly.

    To compare that to Canadian projects currently in progress:

    Vancouver Olympics cost at least $6 Billion, including $2 Billion for Vancouver's Canada Line
    Toronto's Spedina line extension is $2.6 Billion
    Toronto LRT expansion will be $8.6 Billion
    GO train Rail expansion: $1.5 Billion
    Montreal's Champlain bridge replacement costs $5 Billion(federally funded)
    Replacing Montreal's Metro stock costs $2.5 Billion
    Montreal Turcott intergachange replacement $3 Billion
    Calgary's Airport expansion $1.3 Billion
    Ottawa LRT $2.1 Billion

    Plus over $15 Billion for various Highway projects all over the country, all provincially funded.

    In addition the article states that about half of this will be privately funded. This may be the case for any necessary Hospitality infrastructure upgrades.

    I write all this to say that this is not a big number in the grand scheme of things. It in fact could spur development that otherwise would not happen, for example a High speed rail line from Calgary to Edmonton via red deer costs $2-$4 Billion. A Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto line costs $10 Billion. There is currently little political will behind any of it.

    This may all become part of any 2026 bid.
    r
     
  7. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    It is the other 40% ($7.6B) which is largely stadia which is a bit mind boggling from a Canadian bid perspective!
     
  8. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'm looking over their Stadia and there are some interesting comparisons with our potential bid.

    Of the 12 stadia, 8 are about 45,000. Two others are slightly more. Then the 2 big ones are 69,500 and 89,318.

    The marquee 89k stadium in Moscow was constructed in 1956 and will undergo significant renovation. It was also used for the 1980 Olymipcs.

    One stadium to be renovated is a small city(1.3 million) stadium currently at 27,000, looks like any of the smaller CFL fields. It will be increased to 44,000. The other(built in 1964) will go from 32,000 to 45,000

    of the 9 new stadia:
    42,000 Spartak Stadium will be built in Moscow alongside the main one.
    St Petersburg's 69,000 seater will replace a 21,400 seat stadium built in 1925
    Kaliningrad's 45k replaces a 14,000 seat field used by the first division team.
    Kazan's 45k will replace a 28,500 seater built in 1960
    Novgorod's 45k will replace a 18k stadium built in 2000
    Samara's 45k stadium will replace a 33k stadium built in 1957
    Saransk's 45k stadium will replace the 11,500 seat field used by that first division club
    Rostov's 43k stadium will be built alongside another 30,000 stadium undergoing reconstruction
    Sochi will use a new stadium built for the 2014 winter Olympics, and going from 40,000 to 45,000

    The point is, most of these facilities are new because they replace a facility that is very small or very old. For the most part this is not the case here.

    It's not like we don't have to spend lots of money on this, but the context is quite different.
     
  9. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Also, check out the population distribution:

    Moscow(11,500,000)
    St Petersburg(4,800,000)
    Yekaterinburg(1,350,000)
    Novgorod(1,300,000)
    Kazan(1,100,000)
    Samara(1,100,000)
    Rostov(1,000,000)
    Volgograd(1,000,000)
    Kaliningrad: 431,000
    Saransk(300,000)
    Sochi(343,000)
     
  10. intoronto1125

    intoronto1125 Member

    Nov 11, 2010
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    West Canada 4 Groups: (Note all stadiums except Calgary under construction/planned)
    Bc Place - Vancouver 54,000
    Commonwealth Stadium - Edmonton 54,000
    New Calgary Stadium - Calgary wth temp. seating 45,000
    New Regina Stadium - Regina wth temp. seating 42,000
    Winnipeg Stadium -Winnipeg wth temp. seating 40,000

    East Canada 4 groups: (Note all stadiums except Toronto New under construction/planned)
    Hamilton Stadium - Hamilton wth temp. seating 40,000
    Rogers Centre - Toronto 54,000
    New Toronto Stadium - Toronto 80-90,000
    Frank Clair Stadium - Ottawa wth temp. seating 42,000
    Olympic Stadium - Montreal 70,000

    Avg. capacity =52,100

    Not bad at all.
     
  11. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Nothing new here, but a pretty good summary nonetheless.

    Though Rogers center should not even be mentioned as an option, Malta will host a world cup before that place passes FIFA inspection.

    Solving the Toronto problem is central to Canada realistically hosting a world cup. We need another large venue and the nations largest city must play a part.

    WC aside, the Toronto area needs a multi-use outdoor venue anyways. While it was the best they could do at the time, the city, province and TFC did a disservice by building BMO as compact as they did. Again, financial and political limitations at the time made anything more impossible, but it still is unfortunate.

    The answer will almost certainly lie with the Argos. They are the only team to regularly use any potential facility. While not impossible, I can't imagine Canadians supporting a massive facility that would rarely be used. The Toronto hosting and the Argos being in the Grey cup this weekend might be a massive boost to any potential movement on that front. The Argos lease has been extended until 2016(IIRC), at that point it seems to me that there is a strong possibility that they will leave, or be kicked out, as the jays are increasingly desiring a grass field.

    If they are thinking about this problem in any detail(and I hope they are) the CSA should have sent feelers out to the Argos and be involved(or at least informed) about any new developments. We should keep an eye on it as well.

    Worst case scenario, the Argos go the Hamilton route and spend a medium sum of money on a smallish non-expansible facility that forces the CSA to start from scratch. At that point it means trying to convince the province and the federal government to put $500 million on a much larger redundant facility, which I am not very optimistic about.


    Though now that i'm thinking about it, demolishing BMO field, or a hypothetical smaller Argo venue to build a WC stadium would actually work pretty well.

    But i'm speaking as an outsider, what do others think?
     
  12. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Where did you come up with that?
     
  13. Copes

    Copes Member

    Aug 30, 2012
    St. John's, Newfoundland
    Club:
    Torino FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think you've essentially identified the major hurdle. We've got our medium sized stadiums for the Group Stage, but the situation you outlined is more or less my thoughts on where the resistance will be. Your solution regarding approaching the Agros is a good one, and one I haven't considered. Hopefully CSA is more in the zone than I am.
     
  14. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Funny enough, since I wrote that last night I've completely reversed my position.

    Just as I was about to hit submit the post I added the line "Though now that i'm thinking about it, demolishing BMO field, or a hypothetical smaller Argo venue to build a WC stadium would actually work pretty well." and now I think that is the preferred way to go.

    BMO field will be 20 years old by then, while architecturally ordinary and relatively unsubstantial, the location is great and soccer fans are used to it. The field is surrounded by empty parking that can be spared to build a facility of any size. You could build Camp Nou there will room to spare.(Trust me, I checked)

    Any winning bid would bring in substantial federal money (no matter the party in power) and even a paltry amount would make a great venue.


    talk of 80,000-90,000 is crazy. There is just no need for anything of that scale. Like I said before, Canadians would never accept another white elephant like the big O. Any facility must be usable by either the Argos, TFC, or both.

    In my opinion, the ideal is a facility with a permanent capacity of 40,000-50,000, which would be expanded to 60k-70k for larger events.

    For examples of this I would cite Estadio Omnilife, a new 50,000 seater that cost $200 million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estadio_Omnilife . But a more likely example would have to be Grand Stade Lille Métropole or Aviva Stadium. These are all between $200 million and $400 million and seat around 50k.

    Whether a larger expanded capacity is a one off for the WC or a regularly expansible design(for Grey cups, MLS cups, etc) is up to them, but in general I think this size would serve Toronto best.


    I might have phrased that wrong. I mean there is no way FIFA will accept Rogers Centre as a acceptable venue for WC 2026. I meant "inspection" colloquially.

    It is a baseball field first and anything else second. while its not "bad" in any way, precedent would suggest that FIFA will require a new SSS in Toronto as a pre-requisite for any successful bid.
     
  15. Copes

    Copes Member

    Aug 30, 2012
    St. John's, Newfoundland
    Club:
    Torino FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'm not sure how I feel about demolishing BMO Field. 20 years isn't THAT old, and I think demolishing it might be needless. If the Argos are in need of a new facility of their own, I think it makes more sense to just approach them, say "hey guys, lets make this big and allow us to use it for the WC" and do it that way.

    I can't imagine Toronto wanting to build a new stadium for the Argos and a new stadium for TFC within a 10-year period. I also don't want to see the two share a stadium. Let TFC stay at BMO Field, build the Argonauts' stadium big enough to use for venus aside from CFL games. Like a World Cup Final.
     
  16. ottawasportsfan

    Mar 18, 2005
    Bmo field is what around 10 years old if they were to tear it down and say were going to build a new stadium thats going to cost $500 million 100% funded by Ontario and Ottawa that would not go over very well at all plus it would not fair or right to other city's.
     
  17. ottawasportsfan

    Mar 18, 2005
    The issue is the Argos avg around 25,000 so that would not like good in a 60,000 seat stadium.
     
  18. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Again I say where did you come up with that? First and foremost it is not a purpose built baseball stadium, if you think it is let me tell you that it's not exactly a top rated baseball facility.

    And what's this "precedent" you keep suggesting. FIFA has no rules, remember? Qatar!

    Who says Toronto gets the main stadium? Maybe they get a semi final at the RC.
     
  19. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    While the argos would probably see a decent boost from having their own facility, It's doubtful that they could sustain a 40,000 let alone 60,000 seat Stadium. It would be a waste, especially considering there are only 9 home games a year.

    On the other hand, given demographic trends, including the growing and diverse population of Toronto, I could see TFC sustaining average attendances of 30,000 plus, if not Seattle levels.
    That much is up to the team and MLSE to accomplish.

    So in light of that it makes much more sense for TFC to use this hypothetical facility than for the Argos to. If you accept this than what better place to build it than right at exhibition place?

    In 2012 you are right. But remember that this is in the context of a World Cup. Take the 2015 Pan Am Games as an example: Toronto, Ontario and the Federal government are providing a combined $1.4 Billion. $500 million of this is coming straight from Ottawa. They recognist that international events matter and so "normal rules" such as not funding sports venues, do not apply. A world cup is a much bigger deal and I would expect many times the amount of funding if it were to happen.
    Every participating city will get a boost in necessary funding, though the larger areas will certainly get more. Thats as fair as it gets.
     
  20. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada

    You are correct that its not a Baseball specific stadium. But isn't it interesting how there has not been a single multipurpose facility built anywhere in North America since? It was one of the last venues built in the "multi-purpose" craze that began in the early 70's.

    While multi-purpose stadia can accommodate all sports, the atmosphere and sightlines are inferior for every one. Jack of all trades master of none, as it were.

    The Qatar exemption certainly applies, but only if it involves spending MORE money. Never less.
    The Qatar exemption means that if we placed a bid that involved building brand new 50,000 seat venues in 14 different cities with a $10 Billion+ budget, we would get the Cup with no argument.

    If you are suggesting that we gut RC and compeltely redesign the seating area, then sure, that might work. I just think that is less realistic(I know you don't mean this).

    FIFA has historically required new developments that "grow that game". This mandate is the only reason Canada stand a chance in the first place. If TFC was a tenant at RC then perhaps the thinking would be different, but in the present context I can't see RC being accepted by judges.

    True, they have not come out and stated it as such, but over at cansoc forums, they(and recently I) have been talking this over for months. It's consensus that RC is not acceptable, based on the reasons I stated above. Maybe I'm wrong, but all evidence suggests its the case.
     
  21. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Where does it say that and what evidence? I'm kinda familiar with stadium developments and posts at that site and I've been talking about it for more than a decade. Trying not to be an ass here but you're posting your opinion as fact and that ain't the way it is.
     
  22. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    The latest census has new immigrants trending westward (where the jobs are) not Toronto. I still want to know where all these new TFC fans are going to come from if they haven't already showed up in the honeymoon years and attendance is shrinking not growing. Not to say that will continue in the near future but to start forecasting big crowds would be unlikely.
     
  23. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    OK fine. I'm too lazy to crawl through old posts. I'll concede that I don't know that RC is unsuitable, Its just my opinion that RC is unsuitable.

    But assuming that's the case I think we can have fruitful discussions on alternatives. Yes?





    I can't say, but I was speaking ONLY in terms of population demographics and economic output. The GTA has enormous numbers of people that a predisposed towards soccer(I think you would agree with me here). The fact that MLSE has not captured them is irrelevant.

    I clearly disagree with you that "to start forecasting big crowds would be unlikely"

    I see a bright future for MLS: in 10 years with a Salary cap of $30-50 million and star players in their prime playing in Toronto, much higher attendance numbers would be possible as the HUGE number of fans of international soccer would start to see TFC on their radar.

    With the news that PSG and Man City owners UAE and Qatar looking into buying NY2 it is clear that the growth of MLS has not plateaued. I just think it makes sense that Canada will be a part of that.
     
  24. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Ok, I'll bite, why is it unsuitable? Is the Big O unsuitable, Septic Bladder called it a "jewel"

    Actually I wouldn't agree with you.

    Famous quote:
    There are 600,000 Canadians living in southern California. I now know why they moved here - they all hate hockey.
    Jack Kent Cooke, owner Los Angeles Kings hockey club
    Macleans 7 Nov 1988

    As for the involvement of MLSE being irrelevant, do you know something we don't. TFC won't be getting a new owner anytime soon.
     
  25. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Perhaps this is my fault for not phrasing it properly. I mean that the fact that MLSE has failed in capturing an audience does not means that its not there. Every market in MLS is trying to capture the "eurosnob" market with varying degrees of success. The main reason NY2 is happening is that MLS thinks it will succeed where red bull has thus far failed.


    I'm not seeing how that applies in any way. A huge amount of people came out this summer during Euro 2012. I saw thousands come out in the streets of Montreal after the final. I heard reports of the same in Toronto.

    My point is that few of those people are TFC fans, and that in the future they might become so.

    In my opinion, the O gets a pass because it has the distinction to have hosted the 1976 games, as well as having international architectural recognition. In any case it would require a BC place magnitude renovation to be accepted, which I think will occur. RIO(Regie des Installation Olympique) the department in charge of the building, is coming out with a development plan due out "before the end of 2012" that will detail exactly what renovations will take place in the near term. One thing we know is that the stands, which are very similar to RC, will be completely redesigned into a more regular Oval and will seek FIFA certification. At which point it will no longer be usable for baseball.

    Perhaps this could apply to RC as well. We don't know yet. Like I said, if it undergoes renovation, who knows?

    But in my opinion the building as it is designed today would bot be acceptable to FIFA
     

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