Today's MLS draft, with 3 Cal players taken in the first round, underscores the point that they've underachieved on the field by having so many MLS players and not ever making a Final Four.
When the local MLS team the San Jose Earthquakes don't even take one CAL player, you know something is up. I am really questioning their management.
Hard to fault them, really. By the time they picked 9th, two Cal players were gone and that would have been a stretch to take the other two seniors. By the time they picked in the second round, the only one left was Sundly. Can't imagine taking him after taking a similar player (ironically from Cal's biggest rival) at 9. The Quakes may indeed have issues with Cal - I don't know - but I don't think they can be blamed for not taking the two available Cal players when they picked. And none of this changes the fact that Cal had four players taken - the most of any team - and didn't make the Final Four. Again.
Sundly may not be the best option but I still don't think John Doyle likes the way Kevin Grimes plays. I've overheard him say back in October at the Santa Clara game that he didn't really like their style. He did a few years back but that was a different time, I think in 2010. So far their only CAL player has been GK David Bingham who was on a 3 year GA deal.
Cal already had the most players in MLS from any program that has never made a Final Four (the programs with more players in MLS - Maryland, North Carolina, Akron, UCLA, Wake Forest, Indiana, Notre Dame - have all won national titles) and now they had four players drafted today when no other school had more than two. And not just drafted, but drafted high with picks 2 and 3 being used on Bears. Grimes deserves great credit for recruiting well and developing pro prospects but at some point, a guy with all that talent needs to make a couple of Final Fours and win a national title.
Again, how many schools made or make the Final 4 on the west coast and how many have won it all in the last 20 years? Two maybe three? Its overrated and the tournament almost seems fixed to me.
I don't often disagree with Sandon, but his ongoing talk of Cal as an under-achiever has never made any sense to me. Cal began this season unranked and made it to the NCAA quarterfinals. Great year from their upperclassmen, great achievement to get drafted where they did. 100% positive.
falvo I like you bud but this SJ-conspiracy-against-cal thing is getting nutty we haven't taken anyone from maryland, virginia, louisville, or UNC, and a ton of other major schools either... does this mean we hate their programs too?
I don't know but since 2008, they got Tommy Muller from Georgetown, a few from Notre Dame , Brad Ring from Indiana , Ike Opara from Wake Forest, Jacob Husted from UW and Ampaipitakwong from Akron. Most of the rest of the draft picks I remember were traded away. Its not like any of these players set the world on fire and they are all either gone or haven't done much. They could have done this same thing with local players instead of going back east to draft players no one knows or cares anything about. At least the CAL players are in their own backyard and I'm sure Doyle with his academy in Tri Valley along with his other local coaches will know most of them. I don't see how he or anyone else could have known anything about any of those players from the east coast other than what is read in scouting reports.
this is a big country dude, no mls club is gonna operate like bilbao and only take 100% local kids. Morrow was a freaking home run and he was from notre dame. Shea Salinas also a great pick for us and he was from the east coast.
Morrow did good for a little bit but even he is gone now after being benched in his fourth year a season where he should have had a breakthrough year and earned a WC spot. If anything he is a horrid example as he went from the national team to being benched to being traded. Not great for a supposed national team home run king. Salinas was traded after 46 games bounced around to 3 different teams before coming back 3 years later so big deal. They could have done the same thing with a local guy. What is the point of putting all this effort on these home grown players and why bother with it if you aren't really utilizing it? My main point is, they don't have to go across country to draft all these players because they can do the same thing by scouting and developing local players. I for one do not believe in all these big soccer schools and I think its more of a media hyped wannabe college football thing other than anything else. I also do not believe college soccer is the greatest option for developing players nor do I believe the players from these bigger schools are all that much better than anyone else at that level. The draft has proven time and again how the top players fail and a lot of times lower round players do better. Therefore, its a matter of scouting , timing and coaching the right player imho. If you have to do it, you only have to look to your own backyard. No one out of college knew Jahn, (MVP/DP) Wondolowski, Lenhart (other than maybe Sigi) , Beitashour and Baca who was not even drafted and the last time I checked, they were all pretty much raised in California.
I don't disagree with your point (which you've stated several times, in several ways today). Cal didn't make the Final Four this year because they had crap for goal scorers. Don't get me wrong, the fact that they had no real goal scorers up front can be laid on Grimes's recruiting, I'm just saying it's not that the talent they had underperform at Cal, it's more that the talent they had was uneven this year.
Meanwhile I heard Neil tore up the MLS combine. Four Bears Selected in MLS SuperDraft Four Golden Bears Selected in the MLS SuperDraft, Including Three First Rounders
If anything, their "home town" team would be either San Jose St or Santa Clara. How is taking a playing from Cal suddenly make you question them less than taking one from Stanford - especially since occasionally play their home game Stanford?
This year was a big exception in that the Western teams were actually reasonably seeded and came up just short. I thought Maryland had the most talented team and they could have easily lost to Cal a second time. But a lot of time tournament worthy teams from Cal don't get a chance to compete and never get a bunch of local cupcakes in the first few rounds. Prior tournament experience helps.
Grimes takes a bunch of local in state kids into professional players and somehow he's not a good coach because can't win a tainted tournament? Is Cal's program even fully funded with 9.9 scholarships?
Sandon's very balanced and well informed but refuses to acknowledge that the paths to college cup are anything but equal. Gunn had very little at Charlotte yet made into the finals. Last year he had the leading scorer in the league, Adam Jahn who went on be one of the most productive rookies in MLS, along with Koval a 10 pick this year and Kovar who was signed by Seattle. They also had CB who started for Cosmos - and failed to get into the NCAA. This year he added the top academy player in the country and did worse in the Pac-12 than last year. According to the RPI, Stanford was the second last team in. Did Gunn suddenly become an under achieving coach?
I don't think Grimes is a bad coach. Far from it. I think he's built Cal into a strong program. I also think he has trouble winning the big game. That doesn't make him a bad coach. His mentor, Schellas Hyndman, is a very good coach and an even better person and he didn't win many big games at the pro or college level, either. You can make all the excuses you want about the tournament but the fact remains that Cal has the most players in MLS without ever making a Final Four. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. And when a program is like that and continues to struggle to win big playoff games, it is my opinion that they are underachieving. This isn't personal for me. I used to criticize George Gelnovatch because UVa usually shit the bed in big games. But In the past 8 years he's made three Final Fours and won a national title. They should be one of the preseason favorites next year but if they (assuming they don't lose more players to the pros and stay healthy) don't make the Final Four I'll be just as critical of Gelnovatch as I am of Grimes because programs with as much talent as Cal has had and as Virginia will have next year should be expected to make the Final Four and be considered underachieving if they don't.
But again, the final four isn't some magical line between success and failure. Iirc, Cal advanced to the final eight in 2010 and 2013 and played well both times against opponents that had a lot more high-profile talent than it did. And as for Cal's guys in MLS, it isn't as if the Carrasco, Wahl, Kronberg types were earth-shaking talents. Prior to Dean and Birnbaum, I can't recall anyone who was drafted in the top eight. Almost everyone they've ever had has been because UCLA didn't want them.
More talent than New Mexico has had and yet the Lobos made two Final Fours. Rightly or wrongly, our sporting culture puts a lot of emphasis on the Final Four and national championships. It may be a thin line but there is a line and those who have crossed it are viewed as more successful than those that haven't. I'm not alone in thinking this and this isn't just in college soccer. There's a reason lists like this exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Final_Four_appearances_by_coach And until Grimes gets himself on college soccer's version of that list, he'll be viewed - rightly or wrongly - differently than the coaches that have made it, especially given the talent he's had go on to play in MLS. Again, he deserves, and gets, full credit for recruiting and developing that talent and for making Cal a national power most years. But in terms of crossing that line, he still hasn't done it and till he does, he'll be fighting that dreaded UA label.
Oh I meant those local area schools too. St. Mary's ,Stanford, Cal, Santa Clara, SJSU , USF, Chico and Cal Poly and a lot of other schools down south. Heck even 3rd division in UC Santa Cruz produced Matt Fondy. There are so many good talented players in this area that play in MLS that its not even funny.
You think Steve Burns is viewed as more successful than Kevin Grimes? I don't think you'd find many who'd agree with you.
I still fail to see the importance of this tournament and how its supposed too measure talent of a coach or a program , for that matter. Its the luck of the draw in my opinion and Cal lost to eventual champion Akron in 2010 only on pk's in the final 8 on their turf in frigid conditions so who knows what it could have been like had they played at CAL. Also, look at the list champions from 1990 onward... Virgina in 91, 92, 93 ,94 & Virgina 2009 Wisconsin 95 St. Johns 96 UCLA 90, 97 & UCLA 2002 Indiana 98 & 99 Indiana 2004 & Indiana 2012 UConn 2000 North Carolina 2001 & North Carolina 2011 Maryland 2005 & Maryland 2008 UCSB 2006 Wake Forest 2007 Akron 2010 Notre Dame 2013 So in the last 24 years, you've had champions from 12 different schools and the same 5 schools have won it more than once therefore, that 12 now becomes 7 who are have one it once. Again, of all the schools across the country we are talking about 12 different programs who won it all so I don't know how you can measure the importance of this thing. I mean St. Louis hasn't won in years and USF hasn't won it in over 30. I hardly think its a measure of how talented a program is or how you can be judged into being a winner. Saint Louis 10 Indiana 8 Virginia 6 San Francisco 4 UCLA 4 Maryland 3 Connecticut 2 Michigan State 2 North Carolina 2 Clemson 2
You're more than welcome to de-emphasize the NCAA Tournament, Final Four and national championships as a gauge for success. But you're not going to convince me to do it.
Again, it does not rate talent. They lost on pk's to eventual champion Akron in 2010 so if you think pk's are a measure of how good or bad you are, then you do not understand the game as in my opinion it is not a fair way to decide a match or championship, for that matter .