Cable in Columbus

That is one shitty thing about a DVR. Unless you have a built-in DVD burner, Macrovision is a motha.

Then again, I suppose it's another sign that we live in a disposable society. You ever notice how increasingly, more and more people are throwing stuff away before moving? Good stuff too like couches and furniture. It's just cheaper to buy new stuff at the new location rather than move it all.

Same thing with how people buy something new when it breaks. Our fathers and grandfathers would actually repair things. Now, it seems like it's $50 to fix it and $75 to buy a new one, and those numbers might actually be reversed in more than a few situations.

I think your definition of 'permanently' differs from mine. VCR's use a magnetic medium and will degrade over time and use.

This isn't a serious question, is it?

Actually yes. Doesn't Tivo charge a monthly fee to see what's on? Why is their DVR better than the cable company's DVRs? Why is it better than a DVD burner or even a VCR? I've been getting by just fine with a VCR. I'm getting U-Verse installed next week. Why would I be better off with Tivo?

So you haven't even used a bad DVR yet?

A DVR is different than a VCR; with the DVR about 99% of the management is taken care of for you. For starters, you don't have to swap tapes/dvds around to make sure you've got a blank one in to record or the right one for what you want to view. But far more importantly, you don't think about recording X channel at Y time - you think about recording "Lost" and the PVR figures out when the show is on, and records it... while skipping reruns, picking up on schedule changes*, etc.

What you are paying for with the TiVo monthly service charge is the guide data in a format the box can use. This data is, unfortunately, not free, but necessary for a DVR to work it's magic. I'm pretty sure that if you don't pay for the data, you can still use your TiVo as a digital VCR, but the data is what makes the magic happen.

* - when I say "pick up schedule changes", I mean stuff that happens with enough advance notice that the change can trickle down into the data stream. A NFL broadcast going long won't be picked up (you can tell the PVR to extend the end of the recording to handle that stuff), and the cascading FOX Sunday night shows being on late won't be picked up either - but you have that same problem with VHS recordings. However, programming changes - such as CBS moving shows to the middle of the night to make space for OSU basketball games, or ABC shuffling their lineup and moving one of your shows from Tuesdays to Fridays - that stuff will be automatically handled.

From the end user POV, you tell it what shows you want to watch, and then just look in the "Now Showing" list to see what's available to watch - and new shows pop up after they air automatically. It's brilliant.

What TiVo does right that most other PVRs don't is the user interface. Lots of other providers give buggy, unresponsive, non-intuitive interfaces to their machines, often with less exact programming rules. I have very old TiVo which my wife uses, and I use a MythTV system I built myself. The MythTV system is super powerful and configurable, but the UI isn't as slick as the TiVo.

(I should add - I still have to pay for the data for my MythTV box. A not-for-profit makes it available at-cost, but the aggregator service charges everybody, including your cable company. The data charge is just hidden in your service fee. You can find listings for free over the web, but the act of aggregating all of that from all of the channels (including locals) everywhere and putting it into a consistent format is virtually impossible, which is why it's only available as a pay-per service.)

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I'm just not in the target demo for Tivo since I don't have any problems programming the VCR. I plan to still have a VCR hooked up even after the U-Verse installation so stuff can be saved after viewing. It's not clear what kind of output their box has and if the broadcast flag prevents saving shows to DVD or tape.

Trust me when I say this.

Once you figure out how easy it is to record something just by selecting the option on the built-in program guide, you won't go back.

Macrovision (or whatever they're calling it these days) might be an issue though.

Well, I program supercomputers - I can program a VCR too. I just don't have to. Like BravePeter says, it's ridiculously easy to program a recording just by picking it from the program guide, but that doesn't really underscore how transformative the technology is.

There are many shows I watch that I actually don't know what time they are broadcast at. There are even a few that I'm not sure what day of the week they are broadcast on (Mythbusters, for example - I've seen every episode of that show, and you could torture me to the brink of death and I literally couldn't tell you what day of the week new episodes are shown, much less what time). If either of those details change, I don't have to worry at all. And, if the scheduler is any good, it'll automatically look for reruns if there is a conflict and you don't have enough tuners to record all of the material you want from a particular timeslot.

I quite literally watch nothing live. The closest I come are sporting events, but I usually start those a little late (no big deal - I can start watching while it's still recording) and if the wife wants to interrupt me (and she will) I can just pause it. I can instantly jump 10 minutes forwards (or backwards) - handy for scanning boring games for goals. And I can stop playback, bookmark my location for when I return, and switch to a different recording without leaving my couch (and hunting for the right tape).

Oh, and it works in HD.

I don't think people really understand how transformative (good) PVRs are until they've used one. Mine is even programmable from the web - so if I'm traveling, or at work, and forget about a show/game, I can log in and manage things remotely.

U-Verse claims their DVR does that too. It's programmable remotely. DirecTV is flogging the fact theirs is too. U-Verse's big claim is that it will record up to 4 shows at once and can playback different shows on different TVs at the same time or you can pause something on one tv and pick it up on another.

Two huge points here.

VCRs and HD...no go. If you have an HD TV and HD service a VCR won't do much for you. Watching the playback might make you want to hang yourself on a decent sized tv. With a DVR you can record and playback in HD with no degredation of quality.

Web scheduling...yesterday I forgot to setup the Confed Cup semi. Logged in from work and set it to record. Can't do that with a VCR.

I too can program a VCR. I just haven't in years because it's ancient technology and it's crappy.

Tivo is actually "smarter" than most DVRs and if you have a program run long it can keep recording it more often than not. Assuming is the full Tivo. It also receives more frequent schedule updates than any of the cable company boxes...don't know about UVerse. WOW, Insight, and TW aren't nearly as good. DirecTV is really good about updating their schedule compared to the cable companies.

DirecTV definitely does and so does U-Verse. U-Verse's ability to do all their features depends on where you live and what type of connectivity you have. Everyone I know who has it so far so it's somewhat touch and go. No one I know can stream all 4 shows reliably or more than two HD signals. But I don't know anyone in a brand new neighborhood with fiber to their curb either.

Here's another nice feature that works really well if the guide data is good - picking up a show you haven't seen before that is running in syndication. Tell the PVR to grab all episodes of, say, Seinfeld without duplicates... and it will. If the software/scheduler is good, across all channels, ignoring episodes it's already recorded. Is USA showing an episode you've already seen on the CW? No problem, the PVR won't record it. Don't know what channels or times are all showing Seinfeld in syndication? No problem - the PVR does.

This was particularly handy for me when I discovered Mythbusters. Yeah, they're all on Discovery, but when you start watching in season 3 it can be hard to catch episodes from seasons 1 one and 2 that are in reruns... unless the PVR figures it out for you. When a marathon would come on, it'd automatically skip the shows I had already seen (or it had recorded but I hadn't watched yet). "Oh, there must have been a marathon this weekend - it recorded 7 new episodes on Saturday!"

I can't speak to how well U-Verse's DVR works, but when the technology works well, it's absolutely brilliant. TiVo makes the technology easy to use; TW does not - their software is buggy, not full featured, and has a difficult-to-use interface. IMO, MythTV's interface is not as smooth as TiVo, but feature-wise, it's better. The flexibility of the scheduler (and the complex recording rules you can write, if you want) is unparalleled. TDS and Colbert Report don't usually have reliable guide data, but I can write my recording rules to grab one episode per weekday starting at 11PM - which means it will get the episode in it's original timeslot, or one of the replays the next day, if there is a scheduling conflict, regardless of whether or not the guide data says it's a new episode or a "generic" episode without guide data. The TiVo couldn't do that - it would treat each day as starting at midnight, so "once daily" wasn't guaranteed to work correctly, and would record each episode in the other mode (so I'd get 4 per day), which wasn't much better.

Hehehehehe.

Yes, U-Verse is programmable remotely. If you have an AT&T phone, you can do it off the phone as well. (I'm sure you could do it off any phone, but of course, they're going to promote AT&T phones.)

The catch with "recording 4 shows at the same time" is that you get four different streams into your house. Two are HD-capable and the other two aren't. If you're tuned in to an HD stream while recording another HD stream, the other two streams must be viewed in HD.

(Although, if you're recording NBC HD and someone else is watching NBC HD in another room, that only counts as one stream.)

If you're watching something on a second TV and it's recorded on the DVR (a strong feature of U-Verse), that doesn't count as a stream.

AT&T is working on a third HD stream (3 HD, 1 SD), but no one knows when it'll be available. It may also depend on where you live in relation to the VRAD (big box on the sidewalk.) Some people still can't get a 2HD/2SD profile.

The cool thing about AT&T is that if you're watching a previously recorded show on one TV, you can easily pick it up on another.

As of right now... you cannot delete or schedule recordings on any non-DVR box, although rumors indicate this will be a feature by the middle of next month or so. (It's already in Austin, Texas, and coming soon to Ohio and other places.) Although, if you have a computer near that additional STB receiver, you can schedule recordings through the computer. (Using already-existing features you can almost have full-DVR functions on any other receiver in the house.)

The "third phase" of this feature will allow pausing and rewinding of live TV on the non-DVR, but this probably won't be available until next year.

i've been following this thread since its inception, and calling att since then also. i have 2 stores within 3 miles of my house but i can't get hooked up. they keep telling me they will refer my name to a manager and get back with me in a few days. that dosn't happen either. i currently subscribe to wow and as you know they quit showing fsc the first of the year. do i call direct tv to get the channels i want, continue to wait for att or stick with wow and be happy to catch matches on espn, sto, onn, ect. any input would be welcomed. thanks.

https://uverse1.att.com/un/launchAMSS.do?target_action=serviceabilityCheck

That website will also tell you availability of U-Verse. The proximity of AT&T stores have nothing to do with the availability of U-Verse. You need boxes that look like these. Most likely, they'll be somewhere on the sidewalk. If they're getting electricity (the dials should be spinning and it may be making a small amount of noise) then the box is active.

U-Verse does not have packages like Direct Kick, Center Ice, and all the other ones. (NASCAR and NFL Sunday Ticket are only on DirecTV.) You can get most of those sport PPV packages online through the league websites, though.

I would check out both websites and find out what seems to be the better fit for you. DirecTV seems to be the leader in sports, but I think U-Verse has more HD movie channels.

For what it's worth U-Verse does have the ESPN season long packages for college football and the NBA. They just don't carry Direct Kick.

Does anyone know if AT&T shows the NFL network games on Thursday nights? I have the NFLN with WOW but the games are blacked out due to some contractual difference between the cable company and the NFL. The guy I talked to at the AT&T store couldn't tell me if they had a contract with the NFL or not. I think Time Warner shows the games, not sure about Insight.

True. They do have the ESPN college football and college basketball packages. No NBA package. No NBA TV. They do have NHL Network in SD and HD. (Since I don't subscribe to the ESPN college packages, I blocked those from my guide so they don't show up.)

They do have the NFL Network Thursday night games.

Time Warner and Insight both do not have NFL Sunday Ticket. (You want Sunday Ticket? Go to DirecTV.)

That's one of the major reasons I haven't switched. That, and AT&T can't even keep my low-rent DSL and phone service up (something like 3 or 4 significant outages that have required technician visits to fixthis year).

thanks for the info.

Well, I laughed at Po'D... anyone who doesnt love Tivo - especially- has never used it much.
Beware, once your wife gloms on to it... you never will be able to cancel.

Opposite of my experience... I have found that ATT response and service is a FAR CRY from the Bad Old Ameritech days.

Example... periodic severe line noise, esp in wet weather but not JUST when wet.. when I told them to switch pairs for the drop, they did it.
I swear I was watching the DSL stats and listening to the line when the service crew came.. the second they pulled into driveway, line went clear and quiet.

Valid issue for your case, though.
I have issues with TW constant problems with the Explorer

1. Downloading to a box that's on, leaving it OFF is an issue!!! See Tivo.

2. The HD box seems to have memory leak problems, needing to be manually rebooted "pull power cord!" which takes ten F$#55king minutes.

Note trip on cord, lose ten minutes.

Does NOT happen with WOW box.;

Makes me hate Java more, for some reason... imagine the non-techie user only seeing 'Sun' and java logo far more than they want to.
I associate them with the suckiness of no residual memory, too.

As well as saying 'F You Scientific Atlanta'.. you didnt USE to make crap!

Though T-W asked for it to be that way to save a few cents.

Fid sez:

MADDENING! Had that issue with my dad's service... I replaced all in house with good RG 6, then had to argue EVEN THOUGH I could demo that a TV right at the service box showed bad picture with the upper analog channels... they rely too much on their power/SW test instruments.
Turned out that service drop was old low pass cable, AND the drop-tap on the pole was corroded... WTF!

Yeah I switched to Time warner 3 years ago for the WC (first time I had a DVR). I don't know how many outages I had in the 3 months I had them (in addition to them not wanting to give my my quoted price). Then when I asked for credit, they litterally credited me the pro-rated cents of for how long it was out (so it went out for two of the USA games for maybe 1-4 hours and they took that number of hours, divided it by the number of hours in the month, multiplied that by my rate, and credited me that amount). Gee thanks.

It's not Scientific Atlanta's issue. Time Warner used to run two different types of software on their boxes. Depending on where in the country the customer was, that was what software they used. According to reports, instead of paying for the upgrades, they decided to build their own system in-house. (And now according to what's been posted, they'll be rolling out Tivo software.)

I could easily see something on the pole being corroded. Due to weather conditions, or animals getting up there, it's quite possible that anything could happen. I had a connector on the outside wall that had to be replaced. After many years, it looked quite frayed. No wonder my channel 13, 70, and a few others weren't coming in good (or at all, in the case of channel 13.)


In terms of TW customer service, they must have loved me. Whenever a problem occured, they came right out in under 72 hours and fixed it. The only exception was when the upgrade to digital didn't quite work right, and a ton of the wire had to be replaced, which the first tech didn't do (he merely replaced the box and left.) Not only did they give a service credit, but they gave heavily discounted service. I think originally (in 2005) it was around $80 a month for RR, digital variety, HBO, and channels 2-70.

Even that problem with the wire needing replaced was noticed on a Saturday and fixed on a Monday.

In January 2006, when they changed their billing system, the price went up to the regular price (it wasn't supposed to.) A call to their CSRs saw a price of less than $95 for the above stuff. They were more than happy to give free Cinemax or Showtime for a few months everytime a competitor's price was mentioned.

Here's where I think AT&T is better (at least for me.)
Total Home DVR

Tune in to more than 2 shows at once on the same DVR (although the stream issue probably will come in to play for most people.)

The screen doesn't go black when pressing the play/instant replay/rewind button on the DVR

The ability to block channels on the program guide. If the user doesn't pay for a certain channel (such as Cinemax or U-450 package), or even a channel they don't want to see (religion, shopping), they can totally ignore that channel. No more scrolling past 15 pages of channels you don't pay for to get to the 15 channels you do pay for.

(This above feature is real nice.)


Their cable modem ("residential gateway") also doubles as a wireless router. No more need for two boxes next to your computer. The "RG" is quite large, though.



Time Warner is better (at least for me)

They seem more willing to give free premium channels if you threaten to switch.

Sports PPV packages. Even if you don't pay for them, they do go "free preview" several weeks of the year. -- Time Warner's version is nice because when their NBA package is free at the start of the NBA season, that usually means a free few MLS games. At the start of the baseball season, that usually means a free free NHL games.

If you have a lot of TVs, you're not forced to pay for extra boxes. This is a real tossup, though.

Don't misunderstand - I've had AT&T for a long time, and for the most part it's been trouble free. It's just been the last 9 months or so that I've been having problems.

No complaints about the customer support from the company, tho. The techs are friendly and courteous, and seem genuinely interested in fixing my problem. Very professional. And they've fixed the problem - it just keeps coming back. I'm always gunshy about submitting reports because if AT&T determines that the problem is "in your home", they they slap you with a $79 fee for "bothering" them. The problem is that I live in a condo, and I don't have a Network Interface Device - I have a cat5e cable coming into my unit with phone service on one of the twisted pair. It makes me nervous that AT&T will charge me because my neighbor did something stupid while doing renovations and nicked my line or something.

U-Verse customers:

Columbus should be getting Total Home DVR Phase 2 starting on Sunday July 5th and ending on Thursday July 9th.

This will allow scheduling and deleting DVR recordings from secondary receivers, as well as other features.