BVB 2012-2013 Champions' League Thread [R]

The flaw in your argument is that you're using an anomaly to prove the point. Chelsea was not the 'best' but generally the teams that continue to make the semis and reach finals certainly are. And you certainly can't argue that they didn't deserve it. They followed through their plan til the end. Chelsea have a phenomenal CL record in the past ten years and are worthy to make the final. There's a status that comes along with it. The same applies to recent United and Barca sides. United lost their last two finals but they were arguably one of the best sides, second best even, in Europe.

It takes something truly special to consistently get far in Europe and even win it. Chelsea may have won it in a different fashion but it has been coming for them and the win was on the back of many years of building towards this goal.

It's nice to qualify for Europe every season but the goal should be to go as far as the semis and build a team that is feared in Europe. It's a long term goal but one that can benefit the club and its future as well. The CL has overtaken the World Cup as the premier football tournament. being a consistent strong performer there gives you plaudits and builds your pedigree. To go far in it, you can be truly recognized as one of the elite in the continent. I think it's time German clubs get back to this.

This Barcelona side will certainly be judged on their CL runs and rightfully so. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. Why? Because this is where you play the best on the continent. If you dominate your league which might otherwise not even be the best league, then it's even more important you do well in Europe to prove you are a great side. A side will never be regarded as an all time great if it consistently fails in Europe.

 

while it might have given us a little experience, it sure didn't up our coefficient points as we will most likely end up in pot 4 again. I would like to make it to the knock out round and ideally to the quarters.

 

What?

Why on earth are you so defensive all the time?

Your attitude might just be the problem. It's not that I think I'm the authority. Nothing in my posts suggests that. You simply didn't make a good argument using Chelsea. That's not arrogance. It's a fact of football.

The other thing that is a fact of football is that the CL is the highest marker of quality and indicative of how great a side is in the context of history. It's really as simple as that. If Dortmund don't become a consistent European performer they will simply be seen as a great domestic side but never along the likes of United, Chelsea, Barca, Milan, etc..

 

What would Barca be without the CL? What would Brazil be without the World Cup? What would United be without the CL? Madrid?

Now more than ever, since the World Cup is no longer the most difficult tournament, the CL is the purveyor of the highest quality of football.

Ultimately we are talking about the potential of this side. We know what it takes for them to remain a quality domestic side. That's not the end of it though. The next step in its evolution is to take this philosophy onto the highest stage of them all.

 

Jesus...The European Cup in general. The stage other than the domestic one...

The CL is in the spotlight more now because of the drop-off in International football.

No. You missed MY point that you cannot separate them and create an abstract criteria. Both, domestic and tournament count on a team's legacy nowadays. That's a fact. We were originally talking about Dortmund's legacy in lieu of their global standing? (At least I was)

I ignored it because the point is irrelevant to the discussion. Tournaments benefit teams that don't compete in other stages because they are both self-contained.. yea? Duh. What does this matter in judging club teams who can achieve success on both platforms? It says that teams that do are truly great and those that don't miss the mark.

You're kidding right?

This isn't a matter of discussion. How often do you hear Players talking about the CL are the ultimate goal?

Not only that, but can you find a platform where the quality of football in higher in concentration than this competition? No. Because it's the highest, that's also a fact.

But this is ridiculous and not a matter of opinion. The quality drop-off in International Football has been well documented.

Because it's not really an opinion.

Look at it this way. Since it's harder to judge the quality of leagues, although it's not exactly an impossible argument. If team A is in a stronger league than team B, team A should logically be the better side but that's not technically true. The CL helps clarify this discussion where teams are pitted against one another from all leagues. The best against the best. More often than not, since the inception of the European Cup the best sides have usually gone far consistently and won it.

To be the best you have to show you can beat your peers. In the modern age, your peers are not only Stoke or Wigan or Augsburg and Bremen. They are Chelsea, and Barcelona, and Manchester United, etc.

Right...and history supports the criteria I laid out....

 

In this quote, are you saying United, Chelsea, Barca, and Milan are good examples of big clubs in Europe as only Milan in that group is amongst those that have truly succeeded a lot in Europe. I would have started with the top 3 in Madrid, Milan, and Liverpool.

Also, while I do like to try to be successful in Europe, I would not want to do it at the expense that so many are these days by selling their souls for these new mega rich owners.

I simply want BVB to give it their best, learn from their previous seasons mistakes to keep getting better but if that doesn't mean getting to the quarters or beyond each year, I will survive and I am sure I am not the only one.

 

Sometimes I wish that the BL never received that additional CL berth. If it's all just about qualing and then just focusing elsewhere, why even bother?

 

Since the inception of the CL, United, Chelsea, and Barca have been among the most successful.

Doesn't exactly have to be this way.

 

Not sure why that needed to be addressed.

It doesn't matter if Barcelona's success came recently, they will still be regarded as one of the most successful sides since the re-formatting and Chelsea's success is simply being able to reach the semis so often since 2004, specifically since we were talking about what makes a great side. All those years formed the platform for their recent finals appearances and consequent win.

Agree, Liverpool, and Milan could be added. I personally chose Chelsea, United, and Barcelona because they were more recent and probably be Dortmund's competitors but the previous of course also merit a mention.

 

Right but we aren't talking about finances so unless we are going to submit to the fact that Dortmund will never truly win the CL unless they are bought by a billionaire, it's worthless to have this discussion. Money is certainly one way to start shaping that platform. Money doesn't always bring success though. It's about what you do with the quality of players as unfortunate as the market has become at the end of the day it's still the football and the tactics that win you matches and bring you success.

No... Nobody said that.

 

What?

What?

What?

Your mind is full of dueling narratives - all of them on extreme sides of the spectrum only perceivable to you.

In history it's but a small footnote, their money. Fact remains they have been an elite side for nearly a decade now. Their opponents don't wallow about their rise due to money. They are just a strong and very good opponent that stands between them and their own goals.

You must realize the way you write is extremely defensive and often antagonistic.

You don't frame questions objectively (Sometimes you footnote your questions with objectivity and friendliness and that's good but in this case you didn't) It was an implication. I don't really care for it other than it slows down and distracts the discourse but you must be aware of it.

 

You need to calm down. This is a fan message board. People are going to give their opinions on teams that they follow. Getting so uppity and confrontational because someone is making a comment regarding the importance of European success makes you sound really foolish.