Burn a Koran day 9/11

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by CHICO13, Sep 7, 2010.

  1. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
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    Sep 21, 2002
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    http://www.7days.ae/storydetails.php?id=104264&page=localnews&title=Prayer song on LBC hits bad note

    This is why people think Islam is an oversensitive, extreme religion. Someone sings sacred tunes together and there are death threats? I mean it was Ave Maria, as if Maryam is not in the Qaran and has a chapter named after her already.

    Some people need to grow up on both sides.
     
  2. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
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    I have to deal with this shit sometimes, too. I've a radio show in the UK catering for a predominantly Muslim audience. Whenever we play music, even if they are nasheeds (songs based around religious topics) we get complaints. I've never received death threats or anything like that, but the discussions do get heated. And I sometimes get tired of explaining to the tiny minority of my fellow complainant Muslims that there are differences of opinion within Islam about whether such things are permissible or not, and as such, we should allow other Muslims to have our differences so long as we can justify our positions within an Islamic framework. Here's some more reading on the topic for those who are interested:
    http://www.muslimhiphop.com/index.php?p=What_is_MHH/Music_in_Islam

    But that doesn't mean that I will let people get away with labelling Islam as intolerant.

    On the actual issue itself, I'd prefer that people not mix the call to prayer with other songs, whether they are Islamic or not. For me it commercialises and cheapens something which is deeply spiritual. But I would debate this with the artists involved, instead of harrassing or threatening them.
     
  3. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
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    Yes, quite obviously I'm not. If it's illegal to offend religious sensibilities in the UK, then the fundamentalists have won a major victory over freedom already.
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    You are grossly distorting the legal position in both countries.

    The UK has pretty the same rights to free speech as the US.

    However, like the US, the UK sensibly places restrictions on offensive behaviour in public as well as criminal offences like incitement.

    The line is achieved via common sense policing.

    So typically I can offend sensibilities as much as I want via published material.

    Going down to burn the bible in front of a local congregation - not so much.
     
  5. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    No, it just shows that the laws in the UK, despite their flaws, are generally better than laws found elsewhere. You are from Germany, right? What are your views on the Holocaust denial laws there? Or your views on Strafgesetzbuch section 86a. Have the fundamentalists won there, too?
     
  6. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    AFAIK, he did not call for any criminal acts, so it's certainly not incitement. As for "offensive behavior in public" (was it even in public?) where's the definition for that? I'd really like to see it.

    I'm pretty sure that the BNP guy didn't burn the Quran in front of a mosque. But even if he did, I seriously doubt that anyone would get into trouble for burning a Bible in front of a local congregation, or burning "Mein Kampf" in front of a Nazi gathering (at least not legally).
     
  7. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    Actually, I'm against both. I'm with Noam Chomsky who said on this issue: "It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the holocaust to adopt a central doctrine of their murderers."

    In addition to that, I'd say that it's much more effective to actually expose the lies of holocaust deniers than to simply lock them away and pretend they don't exist.
     
  8. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
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    Perhaps bringing the song itself to a reality show cheapens it. But contrasting it artistically with possibly the most spiritual Christian song I think is a profound statement that pays reverential tribute to both religions. To me, this is the farthest thing from cheapening the Athan that I can think of.
     
  9. Umar

    Umar Member+

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  10. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
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    So basically, doing stuff "intended to stir up religious hatred" is illegal and has a maximum penalty of 7 years imprisonment.

    I find this to be a terrible law to begin with as religion shouldn't get any special laws whatsoever. Either stirring up hatred is covered by other laws or it's not, but having special religious laws is unworthy of a post Enlightenment society.

    Next, I don't see how burning a book can be interpreted as stirring up religious hatred. At best it could be interpreted as insult, although even that is a little far fetched IMHO. But I guess we'll have to wait and see whether he'll get charged with anything.
     
  11. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    It's on the same page as racial hatred. I guess you're against those laws, too?
     
  12. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    No, I'm saying that we shouldn't discriminate between religious, racial or any other kind of hatred and treat them all the same.
     
  13. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
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    Seriously Umar, do you really have a problem with this? I think it's gorgeous and poignant.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps64L1OAxZk"]Mohammed Dakdouq and Nisman Mahjoub[/ame]
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Many recent cases show where the lines are being drawn in Europe - not sure if you were involved in those Bigsoccer discussions or not.

    Frankly they show common sense, and how we don't need new laws on this.

    e.g.

    While cartoons were found OK in Denmark, Muslim protestors calling soldiers baby killers at welcome home parade was criminally offensive behaviour.

    So this illustrates the clear restriction on offensive behaviour in public.

    Re the recent cases of Quran burning - in both cases they were recorded to video and the police allege the purpose of that recording was to incite racial hatred via distribution.

    Pretty open and shut IMO.

    And of course if you want to burn qurans with your mates - you still can.
     
  15. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Well of course in any prosecution, facts matter.

    You can burn any book you want any time you want. There is no such crime in the UK.

    Start making your own YouTube videos about it then the content of those videos may change things considerably.

    I mean what is the purpose of the video maker in this case?
     
  16. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    I don't know his motifs, but it could for example simply be a statement against the teachings of the Quran. A symbolic act to raise consciousness about the vile things that are written in there.

    But even if he clearly stated in the video that he's doing this in order to provoke a violent reaction, then I still don't see any reason to prosecute him for anything, because burning books, while certainly not being something that one ordinarily does, is not illegal.
    Because if that's illegal, then where do you draw the line? Say I'm a radical Wahabist who is insulted by seeing unveiled women in public and I react with violence, does that mean that all women who don't veil themselves are inciting hatred? What about those who say that they want to provoke a violent reaction by wearing short shorts?
    In fact, wasn't the process of emancipation a series of provocations? According to your logic, they all should have been locked away for being guilty of offensive behavior in public.
    Or think about the civil rights movement in the US.

    No, we need a clear code of law that is justified not by looking at how some people react to certain acts but by our values of freedom and self determination.
     
  17. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html#a08
     
  18. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    You don't understand the laws here. You should read sections 3,4, 5 and 29 of the Public Order Act 1986 in full.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64

    They haven't just changed due to Muslims or religious people. In fact, they were probably designed to prevent certain religious people preaching their interpretations of religion. And it doesn't just protect religious groups:
     
  19. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    Personally, I don't think that the combination really works that well from an artistic perspective. The two themes are simply too different. But that's just me, I certainly wouldn't threaten anyone because they've ruined "Ave Maria" on television.

    BTW, "Ave Maria" is not the real name of the song, it's "Ellens dritter Gesang" by Franz Schubert and it's not related to the Catholic "Ave Maria", in fact it's based on Walter Scott's poem "Lady of the Lake". It simply starts out with the words "Ave Maria" which has caused a lot of confusion apparently. Although in the video, they seem to have used the lyrics of the Catholic "Ave Maria" to Schubert's melody.
     
  20. benztown

    benztown Member+

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    Whatever the reasons for the law, I still don't understand the need to differentiate between "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief" and hatred against a group of persons defined by any other criterion.

    Introducing "religion" into the law is already a case of special treatment, which can of course cut both ways, not only in favor of religion.
     
  21. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    Yeah, we are giving special treatment to people who are religious, and special treatment to people who aren't religious. All those millions of people who don't fall within those two categories are left unprotected :rolleyes:

    Codifying the law and making it more precise is a good thing. Unless you want the law to be simply worded as "No haters, thanks!".
     
  22. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    You know if we had a Carbon tax/rules in the world maybe we could charge all book burners with pollution.

    I mean burning garbage in public is illegal some places, that could apply to religious books :D
     
  23. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    Next a law to protect the just spiritual crowd.
     
  24. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
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    Obviously it's not necessarily about special treatment to people (although it often is) but about special treatment with regards to certain actions.

    For example, burning the Quran lead to the arrest of the guy because he apparently stirred up hatred among Muslims. However, someone burning "Mein Kampf" would not be prosecuted, even though he essentially did the same thing by stirring up hatred among Nazis.

    But then you'll end up with an unreadable amount of paper...if you want to make a special law for every group, in the end you'll end up with volumes on straight, white men who like to wear pink...
     
  25. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
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    Now that would be an interesting angle. :D
     

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