Box Goals being installed at Gillette

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by MLSFan123, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    I think there are some legitimate complaints, but I think many are blown out of proportion in this forum.
     
  2. A Casual Fan

    A Casual Fan Member+

    Mar 22, 2000
    Fair to say that "many are blown out of proportion" only if every poster here bought into the Revs' approach to managing a franchise. Then they would be complaining about something they already accept.

    But many here do not accept that the way this franchise is run is the way it should be run. They do not accept that it is run in a way that is at odds with how most other MLS franchises are run; and also at odds with how teams around the globe are run, in soccer and in other sports. They do not accept that winning on the field is not a primary objective of this franchise.

    In that case, then nearly all the complaints are spot on -- perfectly proportional to the state of things here.
     
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  3. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Well, I for one am not a fan of how the Krafts run things, and have said so many times, but I also think that some things are blown out of proportion here, that's not at all unfair to say. One egregious, and to me amusing example that for some reason always springs to the front of my mind is the comment that was put up right after Nguyen was acquired, where it was called another failure by the FO - a line of thought which I don't think has many followers nowadays. And just to be clear, I am in no way saying that "every" comment is overblown criticism, nor did rkupp btw, but some are, though he and I would probably disagree on just how many comments are over the top.

    But to echo something said I think yesterday, I'm glad there are the so called KAD's here, otherwise it would be a lot less interesting here.
     
  4. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree but careful with being negative on this board; Doc may add you to his list of "imbalanced" posters. ;)
     
  5. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well the posters who were disappointed when Nguyen was acquired were wrong - I was indifferent as it was a scrap heap move but to be fair I'm not overly critical when Belichick, Cherington or any other GM does the same thing. However, you need to put those comments in context. Most of the time, the success rate of this FO is poor in picking American guys who have played in other leagues off the scrap heap - Jeremiah White and Michael Videira are a couple examples - the jury is still out on Davies. For some evidence, look no further than the roster turnover in just 2 years when compared to the 2012 preseason roster, the same year Nguyen came in.

    Just 8 of the 31 guys (26%) listed on that roster are still with the team. So while people (myself included) may be critical or snarky about acquisitions, there's plenty of data to support the reasoning.
     
  6. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Sorry, I don't understand your logic, I may not remember every transaction, but I'm generally aware of the entire history of the FO (starting with hiring Frank Stapleton because you adored him as a player, and bringing in Jim St Andre as one of your "star" players to build around), but I don't know any context where it might be "fair" to label the acquisition of a new player as a failure, as opposed to just saying your suspicious because of the FO's history, before the player has even set foot in the state, never mind set foot on your field. But if we're talking context, what about the context that he was a player people knew little about in terms of his current ability, because he'd been playing overseas due to the fact that MLS tried to screw him over (as the league seemed to relish doing for a while, just ask TT), so we could hardly rate him on his play, that he was a guy who at least one other team would have traded for had he been made available, and because he was waived, the only cost to the Revs was a plane ticket, which the owners could probably afford without hitting their retirement savings, there was no losing an allocation spot or anything (if my memory is correct on those last 2 points)? The failure would have been to not bring in a mid-20's player with a few caps who'd been starring overseas, even if it's not a great league, just for a look, even if he wasn't great and they waived him as well.

    I just don't understand this need to say that every criticism here is fair and justified. Occasionally some criticisms are a little over the top, so what? Agreeing to that hardly means that you're agreeing the Krafts are good, well meaning owners of the team.
     
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  7. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You'll probably find a reason to disagree with me - but no one here suggested every criticism is justified.
     
  8. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing to remember about the Nguyen pick up, I think more that decision was met by surprise since the Revs chose to pass on him the first time. So yes, they get credit for eventually getting him, but it's kinda like skipping Brady 5 times ... you get some credit, but there's a lot of luck involved as well.
     
  9. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Absolutely, or to put it another way, some credit should be given for doing what you should do, but if you do something that would be dumb NOT to do, while you shouldn't get crap for it, you shouldn't get any lavish awards or accolades either.
     
  10. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't say luck around here, luck is never involved in sports transactions.

    Kinda like how savvy the Revs were to get Ralston. What a savvy business decision that was wait till 2 teams fail and get 3 allocation spots in the draft to get Ralston. (1 you suck allocation, 1 for Loss of Leonel Alvarez and Mauricio Wright and 1 for Loss of William Sunsing.
     
  11. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I thought the comment I replied to:
    "Fair to say that "many are blown out of proportion" only if every poster here bought into the Revs' approach to managing a franchise."

    where the "only if" was underlined for extra emphasis, was saying just that, but if you interpreted it differently, eh, po-TATE-oh po-TAH-toh. No biggie.
     
  12. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Heh, sorry, another annoying pet peeve of mine. I don't mind people referencing luck, if used sparingly, but it bugs me when it's used only to explain away anything that goes against what the person wants to believe: Negative Nancies saying that anything good that happens was only due to random good luck but all bad things are 100% the subject's fault, or Penelope Positives saying that anything bad that happens was just random, unstoppable bad luck.
     
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  13. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    And it bugs me when people tell me the Revs didn't luck into guys like Ralston. Or the Pats didn't get lucky with Brady. Red Sox didn't get lucky with Ortiz(and they did get lucky with Ortiz, they were playing Jeremy Giambi over him). That Celtics didn't get lucky when Pierce fell to them(Pierce was projected top 3 pick).

    Luck plays a huge part in sports and sports team building.
     
  14. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Personally, I think you can have it both ways. As much as the Revs were lucky to get Nguyen after they said no once, they also did finally wind up picking him so they get credit for it as well.
     
  15. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like the patriots and the rest of the NFL who said no to Brady 6x, before the pats finally took him at #199. The criticism:credit should be 6:1.
     
  16. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Totally agree. I'd also add that even though he was the guy they wanted, it was somewhat lucky that Belichick became as successful as he did. There's no "formula" to be a guaranteed success, and anyone who says they have such a formula is waiting to get caught out, or lying about results. There are plenty of good coaches or good players who end up not working out at a particular place, or who only worked in a particular place, but wouldn't work else where. I don't follow basketball closely, but I'm pretty sure that lots of if not most people thought getting Pitino was a great move.

    I also get annoyed when people say after the fact that when a player drafted later on unexpectedly becomes very successful, then all the teams that didn't draft him should have known better, or when someone labeled a can't miss prospect ends up missing, the team that took him should have known better, even though pretty much every single other team in that position would have taken him too. You can't know how ALL aspects of how a player will perform in a new team or league until he gets there and plays, especially when it comes to drafting young, not fully developed players.
     
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  17. ktsd

    ktsd Member

    Jul 20, 1999
    Bethel, CT, USA
    Sooo...

    Box goals. "Lucky" as in they were on sale, or "Business Savvy" in that they were identified as a lock at making the starting lineup?

    Time will tell...
     
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  18. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    So, you state that as though it's a fact and then state that it's unacceptable? It's not a fact, it's your opinion - and one that not every shares.
    I think its been proven to go pretty much unnoticed.
    That's cherry picking. You picked the absolute lowest point for the team. They needed to turn over much of that roster.

    When it comes to roster changes, the Revs generally have far fewer than most.
    The Sox didn't get lucky with Ortiz - they spotted a player who was underutilized. Just because they didn't immediately throw him into the starting lineup proves nothing.

    And players falling in drafts isn't really about luck. It's about teams mis-evaluating the talent. If a guy is really a #3 pick in value, then he's taken near #3. Guys slide because they don't think he's a good or as valuable as perceived. Taking players who prove to be better than where they were selected shows a talent for evaluation. If it's luck that you make a better evaluation than your competitors, than that pretty much equates skill and luck.
    The whole idea with acquisitions, whether drafts or by other mechanisms is to get what you want with the least expenditure of resources. The Pats don't take Brady in the first round because they think he's a potential HOF quarterback, they take him in the 6th round because they don't think anyone else will take him before that.

    I don't remember the details of their claim to Nguyen, but the fact is - and the only one that matters - is that they picked him before anyone else did.
     
  19. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I'm leaning more towards ingenious, as I believe it's the small, needed tweak that will get the team to start scoring consistently, and lead us to our first MLS Cup. Time will prove me right.
     
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  20. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Hmmm, this sounds like you're saying that talent evaluation is or can be an exact science. Unless you actually believe the Sox projected Ortiz to perform to the level he has through his career here, including having a batting average of about a million in the World Series last year, then you have say that their evaluation missed the mark, and some luck was involved. As for Brady, do you honestly think that they projected him to become the player that he is, but were such amazing poker players that they were willing to gamble literally nobody else would evaluate him as even a viable low to mid range starting QB - an evaluation that would lead to him being picked up far earlier - such that they let this guy they projected as a future HOF player slide to the 6th round? If you don't believe that scenario, then you have to admit they got at least a little lucky. If I heard that a team projected a player to be even very good, good enough to make a pro-bowl, and they risked letting every other team in the league have at least 5 shots to pick him up before eventually taking him, I'd seriously question their judgment.

    And how do you explain the fact that literally every team in every sport has picks where players exceed, meet or miss their projected level? Either, as your statement seems to imply, you believe it's possible to evaluate every player exactly, meaning that every single player who plays to a level above or below where he'd been evaluated by multiple teams, often including the team who picked him, was totally mistaken and they should have done better, or you have to admit some luck is involved. Perhaps in the future someone will crack this code, but seeing as many evaluations miss the mark, I don't know how you can deny some luck is involved.

    As for Nguyen, I don't know how Vancouver got him, and if anyone else, including the Revs, had a shot before the Whitecaps picked him up, but the Revs were first in line after he was waived, so in the situation where the Revs picked him up, nobody else had a shot to pick him before the Revs did; in his case, you can't say the Revs' evaluation was better than anyone except Vancouver's.
     
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  21. bwidell

    bwidell Member+

    Apr 19, 2005
    Manchester, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look at all these box goals!!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  22. A Casual Fan

    A Casual Fan Member+

    Mar 22, 2000
    Goal porn. LOL.
     
  23. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll admit, I really like these ... they just seem more professional.

    Now, can we actually find them on the field...?
     
  24. ktsd

    ktsd Member

    Jul 20, 1999
    Bethel, CT, USA
    Yeah, I'm tired of all the griping: WCWGBGLT ?
     
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  25. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    I wouldn't that luck never enters into it, but I don't look at either of those two cases as "lucky", even if they turned out way better than the teams expected. The Sox and the Pats made exceptional evaluations of those players. They don't have to play until age 40 to validate that.
     

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