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Discussion in 'Bayern Munich' started by ForeverRed, Sep 15, 2011.
Quicker and incisive play is what makes Man utd a good side to watch and a tough one to beat
Have to say, oddly for one of only a very few times, that you and I SirMan are at total odds on this one.
I do think some revision is necessary, but feel the direct approach is simply building off of what LVG laid down as a foundation. I think KFofB said it best although I would have likely said incisive.
The decisions seems quicker for me and less back pedaling with the ball. There is a crispness to the ball moving rather than a nonchalant arrogance with which we casually knocked the ball about the pitch before.
I find it less predictable as now we have players willing to suddenly turn up field rather than simply playing the way they are facing, and thus throwing off defenses in the process.
And much more movement off the ball.
It's still fun to pop in occasionally and see a gem like this....
One question...when will some of you ever be pleased with what you see?
I was beginning to wonder if he was just taking the piss!
I don't see the pace at which Bayern attack to be a progressive direction to be fair but it's probably the best way to get the most out of the current gameplan and setup (which I do feel is still not the best way to get the most out of its players - so that's a different discussion altogether)
I don't feel there is more movement off the ball in the sense that it opens up the game in any distinctive patterns than we've already seen before.
Bayern are oppressive in the sense that they pound their opponents with pace and aggression. The wide players run full on at the opposition and the central midfield is one of the hardest working in Europe, if not the most. Bayern's approach is more about chocking out opponents by aggressively forcing themselves upon them not as much by merit of clever movement or opening up space and this isn't meant to be condescending because it has worked for many clubs in the past including a few of Mourinho's sides.
I thought van Gaal's first season, Bayern played the most entertaining football I've seen since 2001 and I thought it would be built on I don't think this current incarnation is really doing that.
They took the experience and know-how from van Gaal but are playing a different style altogether.
Fair enough. To each his own.
I guess I just ultimately good bored to tears watching us play keep ball all day only to lose matches or have our defense flounder.
I feel energized watching this Bayern team. There were times last year I just didn't even want to spend the 45 minutes prior to halftime watching us pass to death.
For me it is about intent. To keep the ball for 89 minutes only to lose it once and get beat in the end wasn't satisfying.
Seeing the ball ping around, smiles on faces, and well over 7-8 different names on the scoresheets this year is much more inviting.
Well, we longer have to wait for the last defender to get up into position before we attack.
I can't remember a big team that played a system more rigidly and relentlessly than Bayern under LvG, and this is why he struggled with teams who parked the bus. You could devise a counter-system using the videotape, and it would apply for the entire 90 minutes. The only wildcards were if Robben could be effectively stopped, and would crazy Olic be stirring the pot up front.
Now with those chains released it certainly appears different to the eye. Feels a more liberal approach. I expect that against top european competition, we'll see less freedom and more counter-attacking.
Unfortunately, I didn't see much of leverkusen last year.
This bayern team looks really damn good...i am so proud of everyone...they all seem to really want to win the treble this season...boateng has fitted in effortlessly....rafihna has been superb.....midfield has probably done the most amount of running out of any other midfiled in europe
we arent lazy, we are motivated
we dont sit back, we get at least 2 goals a game
we are focused, and most importantly heynecks knows what the ******** hes doing in not only the attack, but the defense as well
Boateng has really worked out well so far, (captain obvious) but there were some doubts as to what his impact would be.
I think there were several issues with van Gaal's system.
For one it was just introduced to Bayern. Bayern lacked a distinctly modern approach which is why it's so extraordinary what he brought and managed to achieve that one season alone. It was always going to take a while to see that philosophy implemented properly. One season + was not enough, not for a club that was so new to it.
Secondly, I don't think Bayern had the right players for it or there were apprehensions about bringing in better options. For instance, full back, CB, a goalkeeper who could distribute better, a proper partner for Schweinsteiger, a striker who fit the pace and flow of his game, and so on. When things were forced to change, a lot of van Gaal's approach was simply discarded but the experience and determination he instilled remained which I think is obviously paying dividends.
I don't think the intent under VG was ever to just keep the ball and most of the time it was keep the ball because the team wasn't put together enough to play riskier but that system always demands more balance. Retention is phase 1 but fluidity in attack is key and Bayern did play very exciting football in attack, albeit not enough but the reasons for that were not so much down to the system as much as it was down to timing, personnel, and smaller but key managerial decisions. You can clearly see sides that implement retention and still capable of playing tremendously exciting attacking football. It's a shame for me to see that ideology dropped because it was so heavily associated with van Gaal instead of embraced and incorporated into what we see now.
I am inclined to still claim that it is the missing key but until we see it in action I won't dare to. It might not even show up as something needed as much as say, a team like Dortmund have displayed.
If every team plays the Barca way, that's his brilliant analogy for just about everything.
Just look at the Villareal thread where he bitches and whines like some incoherent child, a game where Bayern wins 2-0 away with ease yet all you see from him is constant complaints. One has to wonder then how can someone like that be a positive on the forum when he just bitches even when Bayern wins, like some crazed lunatic.
As for his statements about Bayern players playing below their abilities in itself is wrong and stupid thing to say, esp when you consider that they've currently broke records defensive and have one of the best starts in club's history. Yet they've played without using their full potential breaking these records with Robben only playing 2 out of 10 games. Outrageously wrong statement, but then again we have seen since Van Gaal he has had a hard-on that if Bayern don't play "exact Barcelona style" it is simply "wrong" since you know Bayern always played such a way rolleyes and must only play that way to be successful.
Really such a statement just makes no sense at all, even if Bayern have had quite an easy schedule.
What kind of rating system is this, very Kirsten v2.0. What you're basically doing is just rating teams based on the last 2 games on how they play. Like when City won those games in the beginning of the season, you were shitting bricks and now they don't look so threatening. Now that Napoli beat Milan (olee Cavani) and 1-1 vs City.
Napoli look good but one thing that Bayern has looked good against so far is counter attacking teams this season and shutting them down. I can see Napoli taking a point in Italy and Bayern likely winning in Munich, which wouldn't be a bad result either.
that's a big statement, but I don't feel it can be substantiated.
In my view, the "system" does not stand apart from the players and the game situations, and this is where LvG goes off the rails. Nevertheless, even granting LvG a hand-picked squad, I don't have any reason to believe that his system was destined for greatness and I'm not ready to give it the benefit of the doubt. I didn't see it as a step down the road to total football. He really benefitted tremendously from the play and goals of Arjen Robben, who was usually was beating 2 and 3 players. Perhaps the best that can be said of LvG and his system was that he got alot from Robben, but at what cost?
LvG truly had a system (almost Soviet), while Barca has not a system but rather a style, especially as it applies to the attacking third.
Cavani is simply on fire, which helped them greatly against Milan. Hopefully we don't run into that Cavani.
He's on fire similar to Gomez, but a lot can happen in that time and who knows how each sets up against one another. I personally worry about City regardless of form, because they simply have more quality.
There are many times teams are in poor form and use a CL match to basically kick start their season that's why it's difficult to use short gap form, just look Bayern vs Madrid in 07.
We didn't play that great but still picked up 3pts. Usually, after big wins in the CL we come out flat and drop points but Ribery came out with a head steam and didn't stop until the end. He's like a train on fire! Peterson was either good or lucky, couldn't quite tell. Schwein & Mueller were very poor, with Mueller's goal saving a complete wasted effort. Neuer hung in there and took the abuse like a seasoned veteran like Kahn used to.
If we keep playing like this, we'll have the Bundesliga wrapped up by the end of Oktoberfest! Prost!
I believe a style comes when the system is in place properly.
I think it's fairly obvious that the defenders at the time could simply not play a high offensive line and thus not execute the orders of the system. That's a personnel issue. Butt, a great shot-stopper and very good goalkeeper, his distribution was lacking as was his command of the box which was not completely his doing - also big factors in why it could not have progressed if those issues weren't addressed.
This system is built from the back up and if there is such an obvious gap in that band, it's bound to fail or fall apart. The midfield is the anchor-point of the side and Schweinsteiger would have needed a technically competent partner after van Bommel left to continue that gameplan.
Overall I'd agree it allowed Robben to thrive offensively. Mueller and Olic also benefited from it but it always surprised me that Ribery regressed. I wouldn't blamed the structure but more his mentality coping with van Gaal and what he demanded of him. It's clear Ribery is at his best when he's allowed more or less to play freely and Robben had far more free reign than Ribery for several reasons. To have both operating at their best was another element I feel ended up hurting Bayern in the completion of this system.
Ultimately if van Gaal was able to get so much out of a group of raw players and a side that was tactically disjointed before his arrival so quickly, it's not hard to believe that would he and management built on it, we would see a very balanced side today. That's neither here or there as that is very much in the past now but credit to Bayern for finding their feet so quickly and re-inventing themselves, even if it's in the same traditional mold they've always known.
Not really, this is a new Manchester City setup we have here. It was a premature judgement thats for sure and at first, it looked like Mancini had planned it out well having the players track back and fight for the ball. However, the gap between midfield and defense is too big when you have such attack minded players.
My contention is the same, it'll be very tough keeping a clean sheet against them, but now that their defensive frailties have been exposed, its not so worrying.
About Napoli they're actually looking good at the back too, we'll see how it pans out with them, lets just hope Cavani doesn't cause too much trouble.
I actually don't think Napoli will be that troublesome to be honest. They have exposed teams with weak cores. City's main men in the center didn't play and it allowed Napoli to counter very quickly. That won't be the case against Bayern. They will have an advantage in midfield if they play their cards right and Napoli will not play at their comfortable pace. The real threat will be from their wide positions.
A few gems from the game
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqOGigT8eNU"]Toni Kroos great dribble vs schalke - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvDLA9LOkxU&feature=related"]Heynkcs shushes muller - YouTube[/ame]
I have to laugh at the money pictures for Neuer in the stadium, do they realize he is getting paid the same amount that Scheisse offered to him for the extension?
I like how you are making excuses with "what would be scenarios" while there is no evidence to suggest such scenarios could ever have become reality.
The weaknesses were obvious after the 1st season and LvG CHOOSE not to adress them.
One could also say that LvG left the team as tactically disjointed as he got it. There wasn't much of a difference between Klinsmann's season and LvG's last one.
And I don't get your comment about "raw players", LvG didn't have some scrubs at his hands, the biggest part of the team was very experienced.
"traditional mold".... lol. Does it hurt so much to admit that LvG simply wasn't as innovative/great as some always try to make him look?
Is Heynckes now just part of this "traditional mold" just because he realises that defence is part of the game and doesn't write books about his great insight of the game?
Bayern didn't need to "reinvent themselves", there were things LvG did right and Heynckes took those parts but also tried to improve other areas of our game and so far it worked.
I just don't think LvG would have ever achieved a balanced side, he didn't at Barca and it was even worse with the dutch NT, he has certain flaws as manager that obviously seem to prevent him from going the last step with a team.
GREAT intellectual, rational response. Maybe there is hope for this forum yet!!! We can be the elders that 'lead by example'.
Great observation. And totally true. Neuer's distribution is far superior, just the use of his feet alone, he is able to hit Lahm or Rafinha when needed on a simple pass with pace to feet. His arm is amazingly strong and accurate, and I love that he always looks to race to the top of the box first to create a counter scenario.
Very true in that our core of backs was unable to hold such a high line without getting burned over the top, as it exposed the lack of closing speed we had. I felt however this could have been handled by LVG simply by encoroporting a deeper line, similar to what Heynckes prefers. This however needed the right personnel in midfield as you mention next (below)
Rather than settle on a true defensive midfielder to replace MVB, dispite having two VERY capable ones at his disposal in Gustavo and Tymoschuk, instead Bayern were exposed in having two clones at CM... Kroos and Schweinsteiger. Thus the gaping hole in defending the space in front of the two CB's compounded with the fact the high line was creating havoc behind the CB's due to the inability to catch anyone that got in behind them. Bringing on Boatang has added this need (lack of speed) and not pairing DVB-Badstuber together as well. Tymo and Gustavo are both quality DM's that are part of the whole equation now that allows Schweinsteiger more room to just distribute.
The Lahm factor needs addressing. Robben benefitted. We had NO real solution for Ribery on the left. The other factors were Ribery's issues (self-induced) off the field, his fitness levels after returning from injury, and clearly his inability to just be the jokester on the team (which LVG must have frowned upon). I think if Ribery is left to be Ribery, he is fine. Last year had to be the worst year of his career on many levels. This year is a return to the form we saw in his first two seasons at Bayern, thankfully.
Robben is a greedier player than Ribery in my opinion. He seldom utilizes his overlapping back's runs, often just taking the decoy for an opportunity to cut inside. Teams were so prepared for this that often he didn't have space and time, and needed to do something else with the ball. He is brilliant at it, clearly, that is stating the obvious (cutting inside), but he was often at his best with loads of space (on the counter) running at full speed. Ribery is much more adapt to playing simple combinations, which you see now with Lahm, Schweini, Gomez (massive improvement), Mueller, and Kroos. This is what I feel is different about this year's team is the willingness to combine... BUT for the purpose of having a next step in mind... like getting into the box to finish. Last year I felt they were combining as there was nothing left to do because teams just packed the edge of the area blockading the Robben cut-in and shoot scenario.
LVG predicted this himself. He is a wise wise man. He prophetically said upon arrival, "I have a plan, but I am not sure Bayern will have the patience to see it all the way through" (paraphrased). It took until December for it to produce results, took off once every piece of the puzzle was healthy and in place in February, the rest flowed.
Unfortunately for LVG was the World Cup, the pressure of nearly having done it ALL in year one, and then the crisis of not getting results - which doesn't sit well with Bayern nation. This all led to some decisions that were not fully understandable, from MVB's dismissal to lack of production from the team, players in wrong positions, and ultimately the loss of his grip on the dressing room.
It simply wasn't fun anymore and their play looked it.