bini's babes

Discussion in 'Women's International' started by guignol, Aug 29, 2012.

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  1. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Even if someone was coming up with the real reason, I don't think many people would believe it.
     
  2. Gromit06

    Gromit06 Member+

    Oct 22, 2012
    Nice
    Club:
    Olympique de Marseille
    :D
    There are certanly good people but probably amongst the most discreet members. Sometimes, I have a feeling that the average age is 11 (too juvenile) or 82 (too senile) :p .
    The worst being the palpable hate, the vulgarity (sorry, but you can wish to see Bini going without calling him "Fils d. p..." or Soub "une vieille peau qui perd ses neurones avec l'âge"), or eminent members congratulating Le Sommer after the match against Juvisy because she made a very nasty tackle against her NT captain (and rejoicing because ELS smiles as an answer). Are that the values that Women's Football and its admirers should carry ?
    And I'm not speaking about the quality of French spelling, its beyond words...
     
  3. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    It's a shame our foreign friends don't speak French, they'd be amazed by all that stuff.
     
  4. 8MaCookies

    8MaCookies Member

    Jan 3, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Do you mean reading the articles about Bini's quotes?
     
  5. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Nope, I am about the vitriolic comments about his choices etc. especially what you match them with the reality and the facts ;) but hey that's free speech in France lol
     
  6. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    autodénigration is also a peculier french habit. muppetry of the kind you speak of is universal.

    the real reasons to learn french (in no particular order)

    rabelais
    rousseau
    les shadoks
    proust
    verlaine
    les cahiers du football
    frenchwomen
     
  7. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I have seen claims from Lyom fans that none of their players would be avaialble for the Germany game
    The squad could look lkike this then :

    Philippe Benameur
    Soyer Gadea Meilleroux Boulleau Delannoy Houara
    Plaza Soubeyrand Hamraoui Morel Thiney
    Delie Catala Makanza

    Ready to get hammered by Germany.
     
  8. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    i think those fans are jumping to conclusions. JMA is definitely going to send all his ladies to the mobcast cup (even if first prize will only about cover airfare). since this tournament is not sanctioned by FIFA but only the JFA that doesn't dispense them from obligation to answer the FFF convocation but since the final of the mobcast cup is the 26th (GMT+8 as well) and the germany match in question is the 29th, they could still make a reasonably planned rassemblement and play this match. and that will put bini's good faith to a test : will he make adjustments for what, even if it doesn't concern him directly, is a good thing for OL, for the FFF and for women's football in general, or will he grab an opportunity to accentuate the rigidity of his stance?

    as for the players available, i think you can put together a reasonably good lineup with the players you mentioned:

    Philippe or Benameur (i don't know if laëtitia is available yet)
    Soyer - Gadea - Delannoy - Boulleau
    Plaza - Hamraoui - Morel
    Catala - Delie - Thiney

    he also still has the possibilities of lattaf and bretigny (doing very well in germany apparently). if he doesn't call them, or insists on playing meilleroux and soubeyrand, that has nothing to do with the availability of the lyonnaises. and one can argue their absence will be no more prejudicial than that of the growing list of players bini chooses to do without already.
     
  9. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    In term of regulations, as long as players are on the pre-list send to clubs before the final squad list, players cannot refuse selections or they get suspended for club games. As the Germnay game is a friendly the date to meet up is 48 hours before the game itself so the Lyon players would have to be in Clairefontaine by the 27th.

    You do wonder why the FFF didn't actually try to get the Germany game played on the 28th or even 24/25 forcing Lyon international players to miss the Mobcast cup.
     
  10. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    QED

    because they don't have the nerve provoke a clash with JMA who has done more for women's football in this country in 8 years than the fed has done in a century.
     
  11. Gromit06

    Gromit06 Member+

    Oct 22, 2012
    Nice
    Club:
    Olympique de Marseille
    It's really a casse-tête. One one hand, JFA and Japanese supporters can't imagine not welcoming a complete OL. On the other hand, the two matches against Germany will be the most important friendly matches before the Euro. Not to embellish the shop-window but to prepare it. Against the team which is probably the best in the world (they largely dominated the two matches against Usa). Would it be of any use to play with a NT without any Lyonnaise who will be playing at the Euro ? Of course, that can give the opportunity to see the players you gave the names (and I totally agree with the choice) but that would be more consistent to do it against the Netherlands (or England) than against Germany and in Germany. It's like sending them to casse-pipe. If those new Bleues lose 7-0, the psychological impact on those players - who are to become important (Houara, Delannoy, Gadea, Philippe, Hamraoui and of course Boulleau, Catala, Delie and Thiney) - could be catastrophic.
    On another side (unlikely but who knows in football), if such a team beats Germany on its soil, the absent Lyonnaises will be very in danger to lose their position in the team...

    Yes, definitely a casse-tête....
     
  12. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    well, BB spoke about renewing the group before the england match, and we saw that "renewing the group basically meant getting rid of sonia but still starting soubeyrand and meilleroux. so maybe he is waiting for germany to give the new kids a chance... or maybe it was all just another layer in his millefeuille of blablabla.
     
  13. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    the official response to bompastor's com has come out : not a direct statement from bini of course, nor even from the FFF, but this article in komsomolskaya prav... errr, footofeminin.

    Q : did bompastor's absence bother the bleues? A : don't be daft. of course not.

    the article deserves some decoding (décryptage). first of all, anyone who's read a little cicero can see the attempts to appear balanced only to carry your point without having to resort to reason.

    the choice of players is interesting. three lyonnaises, eugénie le sommer, corinne franco and laura georges (but not nécib who is known to be quite close to bini) and marie-laure délie : what do they say?

    i'll start with MLD : "we cleared everything up. we communicated. [...] we have a group. sonia's not here today, but may be at the next camp. it's not definitive. but it's the coach's choice, we respect it. we're just players".

    marie-laure tends to be complètement à l'ouest when interviewed (she called the england match "une belle prestation") so that explains her saying sonia might be in the next camp. but the other part that is interesting is the "we're just players" theme that all four ladies echo... as if they had been... coached.

    now for the lyonnaises. first of all ELS : "it didn't bother us. at practice, we practice with the players who have been picked. i know sonia well and it's true things go well, but other players haven't been picked and we can't do anything about that. it's the coach's choice. "

    gégéne is generally a rather shy and clumsy interviewee but fairly fluent in la langue de bois and here is no exception. still, she brings up the "other players" not picked... perhaps an attempt to play both sides of the fence, or perhaps her best albeit timid attempt to stand up for sonia... and amandine.

    next laura : "sonia's not in the group, that was noticeable. we talked about it but we're all professionals. what's important is the game and we try above all to stay mobilized on the field. [...] sonia is my teammate at lyon and i know her qualities, but the coach makes his choices and that's how it is. what happens off the field is beyond us."

    laura is rarely interviewed but she's one of the brightest and well-spoken ladies in the game, so when she says we're all professionals it's possible she's taking a small dig at those decrying OL's professionalization to the detriment of amateur clubs like juvisy. but " knowing her qualities" is a way to say she sides with the coach nevertheless. for what it's worth i seem to recall (though can't find) a statement from her showing some bitterness when abily and bompastor left OL just before the CL semi-final... which OL went on to lose.

    last of the fenottes, franco : we tried to make sure it bothers us as little as possible, to stay in the match we're preparing and stay together. you try not to pay to much attention to what you read or hear outside. [...] i'm just a player, i stay in my place [...] in any case in any team sport no one is indispensible. this time it's sonia who's not called, tomorrow it might be me."

    cocotte was also on the team that felt confident in their chances to be european champion until "abandoned" by camille and sonia, she's also gaëtane thiney's best friend and roommate in the EdF so not necessarily sonia's biggest supporter either. but the "i stay in my place" seems to push the "we're only players" tune a bit too far to sound perfectly frank and candid.

    does this mean there's similar trouble brewing at tola vologe (OL's training ground)? not likely. LG puts it best : they're all professionals. for example it's long seemed pretty clear to me that eugénie and lotta don't spend their vacations together. but they still play and practice together as conscientious pros. that doesn't take a projet de vie with little elfen role-models. it just takes a little maturity.

    it's obvious that there remains appreciable support for bini on the team. but "unanimity? methinks pravda doth protest too much.
     
  14. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    a different angle on this question... might a lyon squad without OL's internationals be better than an équipe de france without them?

    i started out to say certainly not in absolute terms, ybut still more likely to fare better in D1 than les bleues in international play. yet when i put together the squad:

    peyraud-magnin​
    ? - agard - viguier - bompastor​
    majri - henry - dickenmann​
    otaki - tonazzi - schelin​

    suddenly i wasn't so sure!
     
  15. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    the bompastor-dickenmann-schelin flank may very well be stronger than les bleue coresponding side:) , the other parts perhaps not
     
  16. Gromit06

    Gromit06 Member+

    Oct 22, 2012
    Nice
    Club:
    Olympique de Marseille
    I think that maybe you over-interpret a bit too much what the players said in the footofeminin article. I don't say you are wrong but only you may be not right. ;)

    Even the non-professionnal players are... professionnal. Professionnalism is not only a status (you are paid for what you do and it's your regular job) but also a state of mind, opposed to amateurism in its pejorative meaning. And that has nothing to do with the status. I am deeply convinced that all players in NT are or behave as professionnals.
    So, interpreting Laura Georges words - I agree with you, she's maybe the most clever and high-educated girl in the team - as a possible stance against the Juvisy players or club seems a bit too much for me.

    I also think - as you said about Eugénie and Lotta at Lyon - that maybe all Lyonnaises in Les Bleues are not automatically on Sonia's side. Because we don't know exactly what happened in this team, not only in the talk between Bini and Sonia but also during all the former months. Maybe that everybody (or most of them) laughed at Bini behind his back about his childish approach, songs etc. But maybe (it's just an hypothesis) that Sonia was also a pain in the ass for the big majority, for complaining too much often to their ears about Bini or Soubeyrand, for instance. It was often said she was a bit caracterial and a very fussy person at same time as a lovely one. So maybe that, being professionnals, the big majority really don't want to be part in a row between two difficult persons. They just don't want to put in danger what they all built together with or in spite of Bini and that could lead them to an international title.

    Of course, all that are hypothesis and maybe overinterpretation too, I admit it very easily ! :)

    Just a last word : I'll never reproach a player to say and mean : "I'm just a player". Yes, when they are named for a NT, they are just players. That's what we always asked men players, particularly when they are not very clever (suivez mon regard). I think that the girls are much more clever than Les Bleus. But yes, they are only players when they are with the team. Out of it, it's different (and that doesn't mean that they have to forget their personnality when they are players, you can be "only player" with your full personnality).

    That were my two cents and you are entitled to think that it doesn't worth more ;)
     
    guignol repped this.
  17. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Well that 1-1 draw was not good, not many positive besides being able to come back after being 1-0 down.
    Glad Soyer and Houara got a game. I really think Soyer should start at right back and Franco to go back in central midfield.
    Also disappointing not to see Catala start, she needs to be tested properly.
    Regarding the attacking quality it was well below the usual. Players look tired.

    And to come back to Bompastor, it's a shame really but hopefully they can resolve this problem and get her back in the team.
     
  18. debzy

    debzy Member+

    May 26, 2009
    paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    As I told you, the three games after England would have been 1 draw and 2 defeats.....We ,french fans, have to be prepare to be humiliated by the germans......once again thank you bruno !
    I didn't saw the match but according to various source Necib was a ghost on the pitch as usual, what are her excuses now ? ...lol
    Without Sonia's mentality this team is lost.
     
  19. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    not good, not good at all! and yet even before reading any reactions or reports i know that all bini or his babes are going to talk about is the positive of coming back in extremis once again.

    i'm not going to judge soyer on one performance but she got eaten alive at RB last night. as for catala i'm more disappointed to see her chucked in at a position she just can't do (an orphan in a storm at n°6) when she is such an exciting player higher up the pitch.

    the attack was once again shockingly impotent, but to be honest the whole team has been flat, and it's hard to pinpoint where or why. so let's indeed come back to sonia. she definitely isn't lacking at LB per se since boulleau was on of the few satisfactions of both these friendlies. but when you compare the EdF conquérante seen in cyprus (and beyond) with the amorphous puttering around of these last two matches something definitely seems badly broken. that it coincides with the ousting of bompastor doesn't necessarily point to a cause and effect, but it's more than possible that the projet de vie à la bini, an idea that has merit, is even indispensable, has run its course and has gotten stale.

    take the players one by one: bouhaddi was good last night, the dutch goal wasn't a question of bad placement or not enough girls in the wall, but of a righty kicking a lefty FK. s*** happens. the back four all did well enough, including delannoy who can fill in for pireroux (but not for wendie obviously) anytime in my book. abily much better than against england, soubeyrand once again with a volume de jeu not much different from mine (i get up at halftime to make a cup of verveine) but that isn't anything new or different. nécib almost invisible but against england she was personally quite good... though to no better effect. whether the plaque tournante doesn't get balls or has nowhere to give them the end result is the same. as i said the attack was once again aux abonnées absentes but the problem isn't any one of the strikers imo. they got almost nothing to work with in either match, and in this one something else stuck out: in the first half each of them got one good chance, but on each of these chances they were all alone on the charge. if tatane has MLD alongside she doesn't end up heeling the ball away from herself, if ELS has either of the others to pass to she gets an assist before she gets robbed of a penalty, and if MLD has someone to play to... well ok, two out of three ain't bad. but that's just it. there wasn't that drive, that oomph that makes all these things come together. bini said after the england match that his girls were all ready to make that centimeter one for another. but it's not about centimeters. it's about runs of 10, 20 40 metres. and that they're not doing.

    i agree. it's not a question of the team "coming apart". it's a question of them being copines. it's a question of getting out there and demanding the utmost from themselves and from each other. there's too much comfort in biniland. a little dissension and yelling and cursing might help. but i'll be precise : it's not necessarily sonia herself that's missing but as you say, her mentality.

    i always laughed when people said patrick lair should take over the EdF. now i'm not sure but that he might be just the fellow they need.
     
  20. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    i may indeed read too much into these things... just as bettelheim probably read too much into fairytales and apostolidès too much into tintin. but there's a lot in their analyses that make sense and i am pretentious enough to think that there might be something in mine too. and while we're in analysis, something last night really caught my attention : the attentive, almost loving way cocotte adjusted soubeyrand's armband... just like she would do for a daughter... or a grandmother. don't say there's not a lot to interpret and over-interpret into that!

    soso a pain in the ass? and that would be a bad thing i suppose. i'm reminded of the oakland A's baseball team of the 70's. they hated their owner. i'm talking make a dolly and stick pins ito it hatred. they couldn't stand their manager who was a real tête de noeud. they were getting into fisticuffs in the locker room constantly. and they won three world series on the trot. so about putting their chances to lift a trophy or wear a medal into danger, consider this paolo coelho quote: if you think adventure is dangerous try routine. it's deadly.
     
  21. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    If it was that simple, that would be really easy, get rid and don't come back...
    I think it is a lot more complex than that.
     
  22. law10

    law10 Member+

    Dec 26, 2007
    With Sweden confirmed and a long stretch of friendlies ahead, now is the time for experimentation, giving other players a run, and tweaking everything from training to tactics to personnel/staff. Results are of course the end run but in this phase they're tempered by other processes to grow and evolve the team into it's next generation nine months from now. If you're going to create controversy or take a team apart to put it back together, this is the time to do it.

    The best players will prove their mettle in Division 1 and this time next summer everyone will have a much clearer picture of who the best players are. Also in women's football more than men's form is less linear. Good players can fall off considerably in a year and others can pick up their game enormously. The playing season will define the team more than a few friendlies or training sessions or coaching ploys.

    Nothing is guaranteed in sport but considering Bini has delivered two back-to-back major tournament semi-finals and a #5 ranking, the odds of an eviction ahead of the Euros is very low. It may be his ship has run it's course but anyone hoping for his ousting before next summer should probably lower their expectations. It may also be he's ahead of everyone and has a grander under-identified and appreciated plan and design.

    There are a lot of questions on everything right now but I'm not sure there's fair and sufficient information to make any of them. Everyone will tend to their game and by the end of the Div1 season a lot of the positional questions will answer themselves. And in the summer the coaching as well.
     
  23. Katreus

    Katreus Member

    Jul 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? That's a ... very optimistic view. My reading was that he has frankly a golden generation of French footballers with lots of talent and potential, but that he's wasting it with his moves and managing to continually snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory every time he gets near the medal rounds.

    With France's talent and the drop off by the Brazilians, there was a giant opening for France - and they haven't been able to seize it due to a combination of IMO incredibly poor tactics and squad selection by Bini.

    To me, the French performance has more to do with France's youth system and some of the coaching and infrastructure at their top clubs rather than - or actually, in spite of - Bini's strategic acumen.
     
  24. 8MaCookies

    8MaCookies Member

    Jan 3, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I 100% agree with you on this. I couldn't understand why France was playind direct style at the Olympics, that style of play was hurting them. France was better when they were playing a possesion style of football, controlling matches like Barca, Arsenal, Bayern M.

    I don't understand why Bini went away from the possesion style. For this French to to win a trophy now or later(or in the past) they need is to tweak the roster, formation and go back to the swift passing possesion style.
     
  25. law10

    law10 Member+

    Dec 26, 2007
    Do people really believe France has the talent and depth of teams like the Americans and Germany? They're good, very good even, but they're not great. Specifically, they don't have the finishing or goalkeeping.

    You have it backwards. OL won the CL because they put the national team on it. You don't win the World Cup or the Olympics (when everyone is doing the same thing) because of it.

    France play exciting and entertaining football, but they don't have all the pieces to win a major tournament yet. Could they have won one? Sure. But could have and should have are different things.
     

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