I am very aware to that, dont worry. Lets not. We can talk Messi later when the time comes. Corinthians was perhaps not a very strong team at the time, but the Fluminense of the mid 70s was a fantastic team for what I have learned from the Brazilian guys over at XT. It just did not seem to be Rivelino's best season in my view, thats all. Like I said, I find it nearly impossible that a case for Rivelino could be made that would convincingly place him above the other guys mentioned.
For 1973 I have Johan Cruyff at the top again, which makes him the third guy after Di Stéfano (55-57) and Pelé (61-63) to top my picks three consecutive times. The Dutch legend led his Ajax (it would be his last season there before moving to Barcelona) to their third and last Eredivisie title of the decade scoring 16 times in 26 games played. The team also won its third consecutive European Cup, beating the likes of Bayern Munich, Real Madrid and Juventus along the way. That season also saw them win the first ever UEFA Super Cup (took place in early 1973), besting the Glasgow Rangers by 3-1 first and then 3-2 with Cruyff scoring in both legs including the winning goal in the second one. The undisputed best footballer in the world at the time (at least I would so imagine), he was also the leader and most prolific scorer of his national team, which had no problem qualifying for the 1974 World Cup. He was far and away the winner of the 1973 Ballon d'Or and the following year he would in my opinion consolidate beyond any doubt his belonging in the Olympus of the sport after a legendary performance in the World Cup. Behind him we can talk about several players. For instance, Bayern's legends Gerd Müller and Franz Beckenbauer. The former for his incredible scoring prowess (Bundesliga and European Cup top scorer totaling 67 goals in 49 overall games that season, scored often with the NT too) and the latter for his usual consistency (one of the highest rated players in Bundesliga by Kicker), leadership and class. They won the 1972-73 Bundesliga and got to the QFs of the European Cup where eventual champions, the fantastic Ajax of Cruyff, was too much for them. They finished third and fourth for Ballon d'Or, respectevely. In this voting, however, they were both surpassed by a keeper... Dino Zoff seems to have gotten himself up there among the main candidates for individual recognition that year. Probably the best goalkeeper of his generation he helped Juventus win the 1972-73 Serie A title and reach the European Cup final, which the Italians narrowly lost to Ajax (1-0). He also helped Italy qualify for the 1974 World Cup without conceding a single goal. In fact, between late 72 and mid 74 Zoff set the still standing record (if I am not mistaken) for the longest playing time without allowing goals at country level of 1142 minutes. He was second only to Cruyff in the 1973 Ballon d'Or voting. Then again, Ballon d'Or goes, for some reason I ignore, by calendar year and not by actual season, so I am not that confident about this one (it is likely that the said streak of games without conceding with Italy channeled votes his way, but only about half of them actually took place during the course of the 72-73 season I look at though). Actually, it seems to me as if Gianni Rivera had an outstanding season too. The brilliant midfield playmaker led Milan to the second position in Serie A, outdone only by champion Juventus. To his usual class and remarkable passing skills Rivera added goals this season, as he was the top scorer of the Italian league with 17 goals in 28 games in what was his most prolific campaign. He also led the team to win the Italian Cup and the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup, beating the Leeds Mighty Whites in the final. However, he was just eighth for the 1973 Ballon d'Or. Could a drop of form/poor results during the beginning of the 1973-74 campaign have to do with it? On the South American side, the SAPotY went to Pelé. Already long retired from country level activity, he helped Santos win the Paulista tournament and to a respectable sixth place in the Brazilian Championship, where he scored two less goals than the top scorer. It actually does not look so bad for the veteran, a huge living legend by then. However, I have my doubts as to whether his performance throughout the season was actually superior to that of other little less legendary players in the end that were at the time at the peak of their powers. Mainly I mean Miguel Angel Brindisi. For those who dont know, he was an offensive minded midfielder of very high workrate and scoring prowess. Was able to orchestrate, score and run the pitch like the best of them. He had an outstanding year in Argentina with Huracán. It was that year that the team won its first and last league title within the pro era in Argentina. Brindisi and a few other starters of the Huracán forward line missed the second half of the Metro tournament due to being called to the NT, but their performance during the first half had been so remarkably good (lost only twice, against River and Boca both times as visitor and was two goals short from averaging 3 goals per game, a very high rate for the Argentine league) that very solid defending and not much more than that was enough during the second half to win the title. Brindisi showed great form during the Nacional tournament as well, but Huracán missed the final phase by a single point. In total, he scored 21 goals in 32 games with Huracán that year. He was one of the highest rated players by El Gráfico in 1973 and was named Argentine Player of the Year. A mainstay with the NT since 1970, he appeared in 11 matches during 1973 and managed 8 goals. He helped Argentina qualify for the 1974 WC after the 1970 disaster. He was right behind Pelé for the SAPotY award. Then there is Rivelino. As noted before, he was at the time a pillar of the NT (nobody was capped more times not scored more goals than Rivelino during 1973 in official games). With Corinthians it was not a successful season. Was the third best Paulista team (Rivelino played all but two games and scored twice) and was nowhere among the top places in the Brasileirao. However, he is the highest rated offensive minded footballer of that tournament by Placar and scored a bit more (8 goals in 21 games). He was the third choice for SAPotY.
Yeah, but winning titles is for you a difference maker in these lists. Right? See in particular the years without an undisputed winner.
Its indeed a factor, along with others. I was not there to judge the form of each player first hand. If I had, I could have decided which guy I thought was the best in a different manner. But doing it retrospectively, I just play around with the information I manage to gather. I have no problem picking a guy that won no titles but his outstanding individual level is guaranteed by an individual recognition back then, for instance, or high rates given by the press, etc. Can I ask you in which particular case or cases you think I am unfairly or wrongly giving preponderance to winning titles?
I thought that this was an even better season as the 1968-69 one... He certainly played great. As said, not always clear what is decisive for the Ballon d'Or. Lobbying also matters. In this case I know that there was a fierce anti-Italian lobby by the British in particular. Very soon rumours were fed that the 1973 final against Leeds was a bribed affair, and the game was fixed. According to the reports AC Milan (like city rivals Internazionale) were doing this for ages, and it was seen as tied to the Italian game - said reports at least (including examples of some very cunning tactics). This outrage and rumours might have cost Rivera some votes.
Yeah like Zidane winning his WPOY and Ballon Dor for a WC98 title? Ironically, Ronaldo was best player in SerieA and best player at WC (beating him twice at club to NT in same year). Like Canavaro won his WPOY and Ballon Dor 2006 for Italy won WC? while at club level Ronaldinho won everything (much betetr than him) and at WC, he was NOT even the best there but old Zidane ! If those were "FAIR" cases to you, and no further discussion! It was like many younger fans who only LOOK AT who won titles but have no clue how those players were playing before winning them? So depends on each year and depends on each different occasions we should consider differently ... to make sense and more closer to REALITY.
For 1974 I will offer my personal ranking. 1- Franz Beckenbauer. An incredibly susccessful season for him as he led Bayern Munich to a third consecutive Bundesliga title showing superb form (higly rated by Kicker) as well as to their first European Cup win (the first of three consecutive ones as well, as it turned out). Clearly one of the greatest footballers of all time (it is not for no reason that he is normally included in the same echelon as the very greatest players of all time) and a true example of leadership and consistency, Der Kaiser also helped West Germany win the World Cup against the outstanding Netherlands of Cruyff, earning Silver Ball honors for his performance. Though Beckenbauer won it all in 1974, it was not only in the World Cup that Cruyff had the edge in the inidvidual awards. Der Kaiser was his runner-up in the 1974 Ballon d'Or voting as well, not too far behind the phenomenal Dutchman. In recent declarations addressing the main candidates to win the current contenders for Footballer of the Year (as honorary president of Bayern Munich, he manifested his support for Ribery) he pretty much stated that its all little less than shenanigans anyways and that it truly surprised him not to receive the award in 1974. Considering he won the perhaps strongest league in the world at the time (?) as one of its best performers, the main continental tournament and the World Cup (were he was one of the top performers as well), I am somewhat surprised too. Specially since his Germany defeated Cruyff's Netherlands in the very final of the WC. Could it be that very bad results with Bayern in Bundesliga the next season hurt his chances in any way (although his individual level seems as consistent as always according to Kicker)? Or maybe Cruyff was simply the best individual performer. It could also be. Thats why I put them both at the top, much like with Garrincha and Pelé in 1962. 1- Johan Cruyff. Perhaps at the peak of his career (just my guess) Cruyff arrived at Barcelona after winning three consecutive European Cups with Ajax and led the Catalan side to its only league title between 1960 and 1985, netting 16 goals in 26 matches and displaying the array of skills that made him one of the best ever (some would even say the very best). During the World Cup he put together one of the most brilliant individual performances of all time, leading the Clockwork Orange to the final after obliterating Argentina (4-0, Cruyff scored twice) and defeating Brazil (2-0, Cruyff scored the second goal). In the decisive match against hosts West Germany a fantastic personal play by Cruyff generated a penalty and the momentary advantage for the Dutch after just a couple of minutes played. Berti Vogts and the rest of the German defense worked hard to keep the genius under control during the rest of the game (I have also heard some say Cruyff never came back after the incident that earned him the yellow card at half time, due to arguing with the ref about a hard fould he failed to punish) and ultimately took the win. Some call it an upset, but it has to be considered that West Germany was the host, the European champion at the time and featured some of the best and most renowned footballers in the world back then and of all time. In any case, Johan Cruyff was retrospectively awarded the Golden Ball regardless of the lost final and took home the 1974 Ballon d'Or as well. This way Cruyff becomes the first guy to top my personal little lists of guesswork four times in a row*. 3- Gerd Müller. Beckenbauer's teammate for both club and country, Müller was part of the same collective achievements mentioned above. Arguably the most effective pure goalgetter that ever lived, he was the Bundesliga top scorer for sixth time with 30 goals (he would do it once again later on), as well as top scorer of the European Cup with 8 goals, 2 of them in the final against Atlético Madrid. He would score decisive goals during the World Cup as well, like the only goal of the match against Poland in the second round that put Germany in the final and the goal in the final itself that gave West Germany the triumph (I read somewhere this was Müller's one thousandth goal, is this even possible?). His total of 4 goals earned him the Bronze Boot mention. He finished, however, only seventh for Ballon d'Or. Other than those, guys like Paul Breitner, Johan Neeskens and Polish star Deyna were among the top vote getters for the 1974 Ballon d'Or and surely had remarkable seasons all of them. However, the one other guy I feel like mentioning is Wim van Hanegem. He helped his Feyenoord to win the Eredivisie title (scored a dozen goals) as well as the UEFA Cup, where he even managed to score a goal in the final against Tottenham (he only played the first leg held in London). On top of this successful club campaign domestically and internationally, he was a key member of the Dutch team that reached the WC final, some even say he was its best performer after the great Cruyff. However, he was not mentioned in the Team of the Tournament (retrospectively done, though) nor did he get any votes for the 1974 Ballon d'Or. I get the feeling he was a horribly overlooked talent at the time. I dont know why, perhaps he was a low profile kind of man. But maybe I am way off, and he was simply not individually as impressive as others. It kinda seems like it was a Europe dominated year in this sense. On the South American side, I can only think of Elías Figueroa. He was state champion with Internacional and earned a mention in the team of the tournament of the Brasileirao. His WC performances with minnow Chile is said to have been outstanding. He was named South American Player of the Year. Not enough on paper to chanllenge the mentioned Europeans for the top spots, but who knows, I was not there to judge. * That is unless Pelé takes the top spot in 1964 over big title winner Suarez and record breaking Ballon d'Or winner Law. I cant say for sure anybody was superior to anybody else. You can basically shuffle those three around any way you want. I feel different about it every time I look at it. I should not have ventured a rank.
Welll... This shows what I meant with how team trophies affect individual standing. I wonder what it will be for 1979-1981... As footnote.
Oh, I see now why to took that stand. I havent gotten that far. Havent figured out the 2nd and 3rd places for those years yet... This is fun to do but no matter what, a few may agree and others will not. You guys should not take my picks (I am not a football historian and am not pretending to be one, I have more than once already taken importance away from this exercise of mine) too seriously. Like James said, perhaps this is ok to refresh the memory as to what happened season after season, not to determine who was better than who matter of factly, so to say. I wish you guys explained why you think my choices are not right and built your case on the ones you think would be more deserving instead of just complaining.
I think it is not wrong to do but James had a point when he mentioned this... As often is the case, it matters more whether this is applied on a consistent base. You asked to me to give an example so now I gave one... That is why I replied.
Once I think you are doing a very good job with these, actually putting some thought and logic into it. One thing that makes sense to me is splitting each season a top 3 players for domestic/club achievement and a top three for international achievement. In world cup years you get very strange results because of the difficulty of weighting the two against each other. For example Cruyff in 71-72 and Ronaldinho in 05-06 had two of the greatest club seasons in history but they are often overlooked in theses types of rankings because they did not win or preform well in the major international tournament that year.
1975 1- Oleg Blokhin. Holder of several records in Soviet football, in 1975 he was Soviet champion with his Dynamo Kyiv again and league top scorer for the fifth consecutive time (18 goals in 28 games) collecting his third Soviet Footballer of the Year award in a row. With 5 more goals (including one in the final against Ferencváros) in another 8 games he led his side to win the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup as well. Later in the year he would be decisive in the victory over Beckenbauer's Bayern Munich for the UEFA Super Cup scoring the only goal of the match. At country level he helped Soviet Union move to the second phase of the UEFA Euro qualification round. He absolutely dominated the Ballon d'Or balloting for 1975. 2- Norberto Alonso. Owner of outstanding ball control, shooting and playmaking skills, he was one of the absolute top stars in Argentine football during the 70s. El Beto Alonso had a fantastic season and led River Plate to put an end to the nearly two-decade long title drought (they had won the league title in 1957 for the last time) in proper fashion: by winning both Metropolitano and Nacional tournaments. He managed a total of 27 goals in 40 games and was selected Argentine Footballer of the Year. He also had his debut in the national team and was runner-up for South American Player of the Year. He would go on to become one of the greatest idols in the history of the club, rivalled only by Enzo Francescoli perhaps (at least if we leave the black-and-white era out of consideration). 3- Elías Figueroa. One of the best and most individually accomplished central defenders ever, Elías Figueroa was the pillar of Porto Alegre side Internacional that won in 1975 the fourth out of five consecutive Gaúcho titles and, more importantly, the clubs first ever national level title beating Cruzeiro in the Brasileirao final. That was the game in which the Chilean scored his famous Gol Iluminado that gave Internacional the win and the title. He was included in the tournament's Best XI (Bola de Prata mention). Figueroa was selected South American Player of the Year for second time in a row, a very impressive feat considering the names competing for the recognition at the time. There are others that could be in consideration for the higher end of the list. Although individually speaking Franz Beckenbauer was pretty much as consistent as ever (for the way Kicker rated him), Bayern Munich fell to the lower half of the Bundesliga final classification in 1975 after having won three consecutive league titles. Beckenbauer and his teammates salvaged the season by winning the European Cup, becoming the domestically worst winner ever as they finished in the tenth place of the 1974-75 Bundesliga (actually Aston Villa finished in the eleventh position the season they were European Cup champions, 1981-82, but that was out of twenty two teams while Bayern Munich in 1975 was tenth out of eighteen teams only, thus the lower half of the table). And I understand they won it with a rather high quota of controversy in the final against Leeds United, where certain actions or miscalculations by Der Kaiser himself (and some others by the referee of the match) could have put things in jeopardy for Bayern Munich had the referee been a bit sharper. He was Ballon d'Or runner-up, although a distant second place. Much like Van Hanegem the year before, Zico is completely unregarded in the votes for the 1975 SAPotY. However, he seems to have had a very good season despite the lack of titles as he was Carioca top scorer (30 goals in 28 games) and included in the Brasileirao Team of the Tournament (Flamengo finished 7th), where he was one of the highest rated offensive players and catogorized as center forward by Placar. So, was he not that amazing just yet or was he blatantly overlooked? On the other hand, perhaps the player of highest status in Brazil at the time, Rivelino, was also absent in the voting. Usually regarded as the leader of the fantastic Fluminense of the mid 70s, the team won the Carioca tournament and had quite a good campaign at national level (finished third). But not only was Rivelino not among the voted players for the SAPotY award, he was not among the highest rated ones by Placar either in any position. Either it was not one of his stronger seasons or he was somehow underappreciated.
And fun to read...Thanks! It will be interesting how you use the South American Player of the Year award sources of the 1980s, given that apart from "El Mundo" and "El Pais", there was also from 1980-1984 "El Grafico" and from 1981-1989 "Deporte Total" (although in this last source I don't have most of their info and unfortunately rsssf does not mention them or El Grafico).
Actually, I asked you about the ones I had done already. I see now you were anticipating this (and probably Cruyff's less obvious seasons as well, I presume). I gave Cruyff four consecutive first places, so you cannot be unhappy about that. Problem must be I placed Beckenbauer at the top too. Sounds like he had a hell of a season, though.
Thank you Vegan. Actually, I dont know about El Grafico beyond 1982 and never before heard of Deporte Total. Would be great if you could provide those.
Well I know what a bad task to do ranking ratings... however if you took this seriously, you should do more research, not just to follow someone's words, nor to base SOLELY on existing ranking ...since everyone already know (for European players i.e. Ballon D'ors) ... and no point (especially for SA players - SA player of the years were also not a properly reliable source since those days of El Mundo and El Pais only came in by LATE 80's ) ...
See, this is just complaining... Why dont you just compose a believable case around the guy or guys you think I mistakenly left out? If you think my efforts here are not serious enough (this coming from one of the guys who encouraged me to resume this thing...), the bigger the reason for you to provide the allegedly missing deep insight. It will be welcome. And btw, how could the Ballon d'Or awards and such not be a reference? In any case, as you can see if you look carefuly, I take them as factors, but dont take what they say religiously and proposed a different order a few times.
I only said so since you kept on saying Rivelino was NOT among the best player in 1971 aka BASED on SA player of the year ... awards - Yes and NO = my point. Do not take me wrong ... I appreciate your effort ,,, but just to remind you not always a "trophy winner" were the "best player" per se Those awards are a good indication but NOT the ONLY MEANS since always there was some controversial cases: (otherwise, why you have to do that since everyone knows how to find Ballon D'or winner list over years???) Let's remind the weird case: El Mundo (SA player awards) granted Maradona as best player in 1993 even he was at HOME ... (playing ZERO games) Or .. like Canavaro 2006, Rossi82, Sammer 96 or Owen 2001 as cases of Ballon Dor ============================================================ What I meant is your VALUE of rating (as correct to reality as possible) will be a good source for others (especially younger fans than us) to learn - that's all (thanks to GOOGLE, that if they will do research years later, your list will POP OUT)
I have no problems or complaints so far because it has been done in a pretty consistent manner. Considering previous choices (Suarez in 1964, Rivera in 1969 for example) I can indeed see the consistency so far. Although for me (repeat: for me) it is obvious that both Cruijff and Deyna had a better 1974WC as any other player around. Now, that were only seven games but because I don't think some suddenly increased or lowered their level (as usual, many star players arrived tired) I'd prefer a different number one. Actually, in so far a World Cup performance is reasonably representative of the form over a total season, I think those years might be the 'easiest' ones to decide. Considering the availability and exposure to footage, and all other background information and statistics. Obviously, there have been Schillaci one-hit-wonders as well, and everything in between, but these years might be the easiest I think - if the same group of players played at the same event. However, I think it will break down the consistency if some of the late 80s and late 70s years are granted to Maradona (I will say that beforehand, so I will not bother you at the moment itself). It will be consistent if 1980 is given to Maradona. But anyway, it is your list... I only had the same impression as James that team trophies did have a bearing (so his remark seemed justified to me, in this case).
What about Ricardo Bochini, who was outstanding in leading Independiente to the Libertadores title. Probably a top five choice for the year.
Just for the record, I did make the following clarification earlier regarding 1964: And I did not actually choose Rivera for 1969 (folk back then did as they chose him Ballon d'Or winner). I just included him among the top contenders along with three other guys. Who would be your n1 then, Deyna? Perhaps you are right. I guess you mean it will not be consistent? But its ok, I will not be bothered by your comments. Cant just include all the players that played very very well. Too much for me. Gotta narrow it down somehow. You look at the guys that won individual awards, you look at the guys that won titles (and that presumably played a leading role in it). Then you piece it together the best you can using your common sense and judgement, but I do have my preferences, personal impressions and opinions wich, as in all cases, will be shared by some and disputed by others. I dont have a clinical, exact science-like methodology to make my picks. If what I produce is seen as consistent work, great. If not, thats ok.