Denmark is a special case (as is Scotland because of their NT history) but I'd say the Scots have had considerable success on the club level between the 60s and late 80s. Sweden had success at club level in the 70s and 80s too of course (and a number of very good players, also very successful in Serie A). In terms of talent delivered I'd say that Denmark and Scotland used to be very close to that level, if not on par with it. That's my opinion. National team can be very problematic (even in qualifiers Denmark could often only use a small section of their foreign playing players). La Liga ahead of Serie A, when considering all decades since the 1920s up to now, is also a contentious call. Depends a bit on what one is measuring and what is seen as important. I think either Serie A or EPL can be on top for 1920-now, for what's worth.
Cannot remember all your posts but I vaguely remember you stating that in case of Netherlands the 1974 generation ranks above the 1988 generation, which in turn ranks above the 1998-2000 bunch in terms of talent. So there's sort of a downward slope I guess one can do the same for other countries. Also think that EPL has a good shout for being above La Liga, historically (despite all the stars).
Scotland and Denmark close to whose level? Certainly not the Netherlands, and even Sweden is a big stretch. Sweden a great side in WC94, then followed up with strong performances in WC02 and Euro04, plus having one of the top five players of this generation in Ibrahimovic, so I wouldn't bury them just yet. Yes, I rated the Netherlands of the 88 generation ahead of the 98 one, but perhaps I should revise that stand. While in Van Basten, Gullit, Rikjaard and Koeman the 88 generation had the better crop of legends, the 98 generation had more top players across all positions: Bergkamp, Overmars, F and R DeBoer, Stam, Cocu, Davids, Seedorf, Kluivert, Blind, Van der Saar. If we make a position by position comparison, the Eur088 side wins for the four players mentioned above and loses for the remaining seven matchups. It's close between EPL, Serie A and La Liga for historical supermacy, I was making a comment that the latter two have a much greater tradition of bringing foreign stars to play for them, particularly from the elite nations Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Netherlands, France and Hungary. @Puck
Agree so. Liga has always been the most quality (in general) to watch with many good talented players
Yep, I can tell Netherland 74-78> 1988-90 > 1998-2000 >> Netehrland WC2010 and Euro2012 and Obviously with Brazil NT are going depp SOuth in quality ... thanks to the coincidence that many other big NT are also on decline as well so that makes us look "still Strong" and even favorite to win WC LOL. Our rival Argentina are also very down since last WC2002 sinking ... and just picking up good recently with Messi form. France are another case I think France 82-86 were best or just equally to the well solid defense of France 98-2000 and MUCH better than last 5 years ... Most Eastern Euro countries are in DEEPer notch ... since mid 2000's Italy and Enngland are just as so-so as they were ... not worse nor improved ... (their best run were way back at WC06 and Euro04 respectively ) Only 2 countries are strill strong if not saying stronger = Spain and Germany Well 2 UP out of a dozen down = weak era ... sadly
That's only counting the national team performances (some say that Holland has underperformed too but certainly not as much as Scotland I think). Count the club successes and # of good/great players - # of players who succeeded abroad and became major stars might be counted as well. Yes, that is my thought too but I remember you granted back then the 'top of the crop' precedence over depth. In that respect (when looking at, say, the four best players) it becomes then 74-78=>88-94>96-00>06-12. The breakthrough generation was immediately also the best generation although 88-94 gives them a good run for the money (the 3rd/4th best players of 74-78 maybe loses against the 3rd/4th best of 88-94 I think). Ofc it requires certain circumstances (thanks to greatstriker11 for pointing it out) but truth is that success and consistent building of great athletes can be bought with money. That's true for every sport. Australia sucked at the Olympics until they started to invest massively around 2000 (today we know it was also in medical facilities ); same with Great-Britain (rock bottom at 1996). Of course, incidental exceptions exist.
In my opinion, the have been some instances where the Dutch were treated more favorably by the referee than the Germans. Hence any talk of “perks” and Germany “owning” UEFA and FIFA are quite ridiculous. 1974 Müller’s legal second goal not given and clear-cut foul on Hölzenbein in the penalty box ignored by the referee: Helmut Schön’s side should have had the game safely wrapped up when Müller put the ball into the net for a second time after he latched onto a smart cross from Jürgen Grabowski – only to have the effort chalked off for offside. A second look clearly suggested that the decision was woefully incorrect as Müller was a good two yards in front of the defender when the ball was played into the box, but the Germans simply got on with the game with little protest. One can only wonder how the increasingly petulant Dutch would have reacted had things been the other way around. Hölzenbein was also brought down in the box again not long afterwards, and although the case for a penalty looked a whole lot stronger than the first one, referee Taylor waved play on. Also, giving a penalty against the hosts in the very first minute of a World Cup final does not exactly leave the impression that the referee was bought by the hosts! 1980 Phantom penalty given to the Dutch in the 73rd minute (another phantom penalty was given against Germany in the final vs. Belgium): With seventeen minutes left and theMannschaftseemingly home and dry skipper Bernard Dietz was replaced by the nineteen year-old Borussia Mönchengladbach prodigy Lothar Matthäus, who within minutes of coming onto the pitch was testing the increasingly nervous Schrijvers with a well-struck shot from some twenty yards. It would be an interesting introduction to international football for the teenager: less than five minutes after his attempt on goal, he found himself at the other end of the field making a clumsily desperate lunge at Dutch wingback Bennie Wijnstekers – who threw himself into the box with a spectacularly theatrical flourish. The foul – if indeed there had been a foul – had clearly taken place outside the area, but the French official waved away the German protests. It was at least the third time that a Dutch player had flung himself into the penalty area, and on this occasion the tactic succeeded in hoodwinking Monsieur Wurtz who immediately pointed to the spot. It appeared that there could be no game between Germany and the Netherlands without there being some sort of controversy, usually in the form of a suspect Dutch spot-kick. Johnny Rep’s well-placed shot just about beat Toni Schumacher who dived the right way, and the Dutch were on the scoresheet. 1988 Debatable penalty given to the Dutch: With just over a quarter of an hour left on the clock the home side were clearly on top, but in a flash a cruel turn of fate and the referee’s whistle would throw everything up in the air again. A well-timed long ball from Ronald Koeman found van Basten, who made his way into the German penalty area before trying to go outside Kohler who timed his challenge perfectly while van Basten stumbled and fell like a drunk with both feet tied together. Kohler heard a whistle, and was clearly distraught to see referee Igna pointing to the penalty spot; in fairness to van Basten, he also looked slightly surprised at the decision. 1990 Another phantom penalty given to the Dutch: At 2-0 with less than five minutes renaining one might have safely assumed that the game was over, but it would not be a Germany versus Netherlands fixture without a dodgy penalty – and so it proved, when van Basten took an Oscar™-winning tumble in box to earn theOranje an opportunity to make the score a more flattering one. Everyone’s favourite pantomime villain Ronald Koeman would send Illgner the wrong way to pull the score back to 2-1. So considering all this pro-Dutch refereeing I find it pretty rich of a Dutchman complaining about UEFA and FIFA being "owned" by the Germans. Heck, even when the Dutch manage the unthinkable – beaten Germany as HOSTS – in a very important semi final, you still find reason to smell a conspiracy favoring the Germans. Yes, Brehme should have been sent-off for that foul against Erwin Koeman. But it was in the 90th minute or so and had no effect whatsoever on the game. And wasn’t there a Dutchman that all the world thought should’ve been sent-off in the latest World Cup final? Yet the referee didn’t sent him off. Nobody comes up with a pro-Dutch conspiracy theory "we the Dutch own this referee, we own FIFA" because of that. The above text by the way was taken from the excellent “Schwarz und Weiß” website, which is run by a fellow BigSoccer poster. http://www.schwarzundweiss.co.uk/
The last sentences at that Volkischer Beobachter website (there's no other words for it) are classic, as well as the comments by the 'fans' below. http://www.schwarzundweiss.co.uk/tournaments/fifa-world-cup/germany-1974/tournament-results.html From the starting page: That's all fine and there's nothing wrong with it (freedom of speech), but it does not necessarily equate with 'excellent'. In the euro76 write-up, for example, there is no mention at all of Beckenbauer his Nigel de Jong karate kick against Yugoslavia. It is erased from history, just like there as at that time no global outcry, while even the German live commentator admitted they were lucky to 'only' see a free kick against them (good 'perception management' by the Germans there). Similarly, the teeth-kicking against Czechozlovakia by fraud Uli Hoeness in the final isn't mentioned. And that's the same tournament. Fine to leave it out but imagine a Dutch fan website erasing Nigel de Jong his kick from the books, or an attempt to do so. It'll be ridiculed and rightly so (other example would be Bergkamp his stamping on Mihaylovic at the 1998 World Cup). It is not entirely credible. Maybe the Germans aren't as villianised by the international football press as some like to think they are, with every 'tiny' (*cough*) incident used to hammer them. Press in general tends to follow dominant powers rather than going against the tide. It aren't the Dutch who have the most seats in UEFA and FIFA committees, dominate the European Club Association, have a PR-team of a few dozen men and a sports apparel firm as auxiliary attachment. 'Owning' the world of football is not even a question. It is of course no surprise to see the descriptions of events being as much one-sided by the black&white fan-website. The penalty at the 1990 World Cup wasn't a dive, unlike the perception propagated by the media that is in Germany's pocket ('world soccer' for example; very pro german publication). Kohler his arms are clearly in awkward positions, that do not belong there. Everyone can see that if they want to. But 'everyone' ignores it and upgrades the act to a 100% dive. The penalty in 1988 was as much a penalty as Klinsmann (Klinsmann ! The arch-diver) his drawn penalty on the other side of the field. Obviously, it also denies the ankle-hacking by Kohler throughout the match, who never saw a yellow card or anything like it. But only one little slip of him became punished, with a penalty. The only yellow card in the game was for the complaining Van Breukelen - that is a telling fact. Obviously, the 'blackshirts website' doesn't talk about the assault of Brehme on Erwin Koeman and skips immediately to Ronald Koeman his antics - it is the familiar 'international mainstream press' story. One has to be honest about it: Brehme his lunge was a clear message for his part; shamelessly getting away with it (not even a little condemning speech by the ref, cf. Nigel de Jong) was maybe an implicit message too. Ronald Koeman made a childish (but appropriate) gesture after the game. That is the core, and part of the background for the World Cup match two years later. They also suffer suddenly from amnesia when euro80 is discussed. Don't they know how referees whistled at that time? Look at Gerd Muller his penalty against Sweden in 1974; at that era referees were more likely to sanction penalties for fouls commencing/starting outside of the penalty area. Ridiculous with the eyes of today, but in the past it happened a lot (for the record: I have never complained about the location of the foul against Muller vs Sweden). Besides, in the euro80 final Förster clearly escaped a second yellow card for a clear yellow card offence. Let there be no mistake about it, after the dark mists of the 1972 Olympics, it was a predicament to make of the adjacent 1974 World Cup a big success. There's no doubt about the full exploitation of the host advantage. For starters: imagine a Dutch (or Brazil) referee leading the Poland-Germany game in the second group stage, a match between two destined top finishers of their group. Would that get a mention in history books? I bet it would. On the other hand, Germany achieving their worst result in the Netherlands during euro2000 is maybe not a coincidence. Downplaying the shameless Austria-Germany game of 1982 is also very popular act today, despite the very unambiguous comments of Lothar Matthaus and Derwall after the match. When will people start to realize how many red cards Spain escaped in 2010? Luckily, as consolation, the widely expressed propaganda of Bayern Munich as model club without faults and example to follow has been punctured lately. They and their allies at the press need to re-write the public relations communication strategy. I bet they can use this very same 'black&white website' for this aim.
here is a youtube video with highlights of the game germany-sweden....the swedish defender hit gerd müllers ankle slightly inside the penaltyzone...the replay from the behind the goal camera angle confirm this (using the video hold on function) .....
and puckvanheel... i the past you pointed out sepp maier has played the game of his life in the final 1974 against netherland...count up all sepp maiers great saves in this game....i have counted great 2 saves.....1 against rep (sometimes its pointed out rep has wasted the chance)and 1 against neskens(a shot from dificult angle).... ......there was olso a dutch action (van hannegem?)from a header, but the the replay confirm the header was powerless and not dificult to save.....sepp maier was in part responsable for nearly a owngoal...a misunderstang between him and a german defender..breitner saved on the line......against poland i remember minimum 4 great saves.....however this match was played on a bad pitch..
Alright, it is maybe a doubtful case but I still stand by my statement concerning how referees were more lenient in awarding penalties (in relation to position of foul). After seeing this, I agree it was maybe/likely inside the lines. Reading back the commentary also confirms that. Wijnstekers himself said that Germany won deserved but that he saw the penalty as justified because of "the nature of the foul" while acknowledging that the foul happened outside the penalty area. Apart from Bernd Schuster you see no other German player protesting. Similar commentary existed for the euro80 final (Belgium - Germany) penalty. World Soccer (certainly not anti-German, see the team selections by Batty on the other thread) said: "Never mind whether Uli Stielike his foul on Francois van der Elst was inside or outside the penalty area. The forward was clear and a penalty was the only just punishment." That's kind of indicative for the spirit of refereeing (as compensation, no red cards for 'professional fouls' existed back then, though yellows were frequently given). Even if the incident in the Netherlands-Germany game wasn't a penalty (Matthaus did not receive a card for his lunge from behind - before this becomes forgotten), a more peculiar decision happened minutes earlier in the same match. René van de Kerkhof speeds past his opponent Stielike. Stielike trips him from behind... And the referee Wurtz (France) gives an indirect free kick, no card. The explanation is 'impeding' or 'obstruction'. But how was it 'impeding' when it was a trip from behind? Van de Kerkhof was already clearly past his man - if one sees the full scene in motion there's no doubt. Also look at the place of the indirect free-kick; peculiarly at a more advanced place than where Stielike initiates his foul; the free kick is at a place where Van de Kerkhof was clearly past his opponent hence no instance of impeding any longer ('World Soccer' of July 1980 agrees it was a penalty kick, for a change & no complain about the actually given penalty kick later on). Of course, this mistake - that easily surpasses the Matthaus foul 'mistake' - isn't mentioned by the 'Schwarz&Weiss' website. As can be predicted. Instead, they prefer to complain about the Matthaus penalty and how the French referee supposedly helped the Dutch on the scoresheet. "[T]reated more favorably by the referee than the Germans" (not my words) did not seem to happen in the game. This mistake makes "pro-Dutch refereeing" by the French referee in the match less likely. It is one thing to make a wrong observation, it is another to observe what happens and attach 'obstruction' - thus a mere indirect free kick - as explanation to the incident. It is kind of similar as the loathed offside goal vs Belgium in 1973 (Dutch qualified at the expense of Belgium) vs the Germany-Portugal game in 1997 (Germany in danger of missing the World Cup for the first time, until the French referee helped them out).
Stuff from the 70s and early 80s is before I could watch it, but I will comment on the Euro88 and WC90 calls. The pk against Germany in WC90 was non-existent, seems to me Van Basten falls out of inertia and makes a meal out of it. I also don't think the referee would have called it had it happened earlier in the match, but by minute 88 the game was decided and it the final score at least helps the Netherlands save some blushes. However, in Euro88, the pk given to the Dutch is at least as appropriate as the one given to Germany if not more so. If that blog is going to comment like it was a dodgy call, it should at least do the same for the clear Klinsmann dive. @Gregoriak
Every sensible person (repeat: every) would see that Kohler his arms are on places they should not belong. It was not a 100% dive, and overall in the game the referee did not help the Dutch. I've not searched it back now but probably the 'blackskirt website' is just as biased and one-sided as the euro80 game description (thus ignoring an even graver mistake). It was for the standards at the time a penalty, just as the euro80 final penalty. That website is a shame, a big joke. It is like a fan website leaving out Nigel de Jong his karate kick. But the power of propaganda is very strong. In any event, the referee not even talking against Brehme in 1988 is awkward. They knew they would get away with it.
I agree with Puck about those events ... The refs have been a MAJOR factor to decide many games on their own, regardless how 22 men playing on the pitch. This became "part of the game" as FIFA and UEFA claimed "human factor" in Football (!) Who knows ... if that was always the "intention" of having the power to change a game when "needed" (!) of FIFA/UEFA
@JamesBH11 Kungfu kick against Maradona's chest at 24:00. No card, or reprimand, for dangerous play. Napoli won anyway.
Pele made FIFA changed the law for substitution and yellow card in WC70 Cruijff made FIFA changed the law of how a pk/fk definition shall be done with REF call (in 76?) Maradona made FIFA changed the law to protect players at WC90 (about offside, Yellow for illegal, and red card on hard tackle
That was Berlusconi after Van Basten got crocked in Serie A. Nothing change when Goicotxea sent Maradona to the OR @JamesBH11
NOT because of that particular tackle ... Maradona was famous as the MOST FOULED player for being "tripped, tackled, ripped ..." in the 80's WC90 negativity was the last CALL for FIFA to change the law ...
As usual you don't have proof for "most fouled player of the 80s" call. By the way, Berlusconi had virtually no role in the rule changes. Berlusocni is one of the masterminds behind the current pompous Champions League, sure, but had no such role in the rule changes.
Can you prove that claim, Jome? Maradona is famous for diving, but I strongly doubt that he was not the most fouled player of the 1980s.
And I thought that the yellow cards in 1970 started because of the Rattin issue in 1966. A card instead of a verbal warning to avoid that kind of "confusion" is what I understand. Could be wrong.
Maradona took to diving in the latter part of his career, after suffering the roughness of his markers for many many years. Earlier on he was actually famous for riding tackles, avoiding the contact or simply get up after getting floored and move on.
Possibly he was, maybe he was not. He was after all a borderline forward player (many would classify him as midfielder, with a good reason). Usually it are the strikers, wingers and forwards who draw the most fouls. That's even today the case and back in the 80s they were more likely to face a man to man marker than a midfielder. In the 1989UC game against Juventus that I saw recently it were Careca and Carnevale who had a marker, less so Maradona. Careca drew by far the most fouls in the game, as an on-screen graphic also showed. http://www.napolitube.eu/web/tabellini/napoli-juventus-uefa-1988-1989.jpg People who'll see the full match will notice the same (leaving aside for a moment the actual performance). Maybe he was, considering his status, playing style and reputation; maybe he was not, because of his position in many games and embelishing of fouls. But ofc, in the first part of his career he was more of a forward player (at AJ, Barcelona, and maybe the first few years at Napoli too).
Something else to consider is the status of La Liga at that time as roughest league. Serie A was viewed as markedly 'softer' thanks to the refereeing and media coverage. Many 80s players have played more than two incomplete seasons in La Liga; it's not unlikely to think that playing a considerable part of career in La Liga (Hugo Sanchez?) boosts the 'fouls per game' career-statistic. And as we know; league football forms actually 80% (or more) of a player's match-career. Not to say Serie A players had it easy or so but it's something to consider, and makes it harder to dump plausible statements.