Seu português é péssimo, meu amigo. Google translator won't help you. Nice try, better luck next time.
Lucas Gomes, don't embarass yourself saying Messi was a better dribbler than Ronaldinho, Garrincha, Maradona or Pelé. Uma coisa é o cara ter velocidade e controle de bola. Outra coisa completamente diferente é ter habilidade de drible sem precisar usar velocidade. Não confunda as bolas. O Messi é um dos melhores jogadores da História, mas está longe de ser um dos maiores dribladores. Melhor jogador e melhor driblador não são necessariamente a mesma coisa. Não confunda as coisas. You're commiting the same mistake as Bada Bing, that Guigs and I pointed out. You're comparing the player overall and forgetting this is only about dribbling. The proof that you're confusing things is when you said: "My Brazilian friends came to compare Messi to Neymar, Denilson and Djalminha!" See? We're not comparing them as PLAYERS. We're comparing them as DRIBBLERS. Messi is the best player in the world today, but nobody relates him to that because of his dribbling abilities. Sure he is a great dribbler, but his main characteristic has ALWAYS been explosive speed allied with ball control and sheer objectiveness towards the goal. Withou his speed, his dribbling becomes very limited. Neymar, on the other hand, is much more related to his dribbling than anything else, when people think about him. AND I'M NOT COMPARING NEYMAR TO MESSI AS A PLAYER, which you failed to understand (even though it was explained many times previously on this topic). Another example that you're confusing things: "As I once said, nobody controls the ball with as much quality as Messi. To have so much control, you need a lot of technique, speed and agility and Messi meets all these characteristics." Indeed, Messi has great ball control, which does not make him necessarily a great dribbler. Zidane had one of the greatest ball controls ever seen and he was FAR from being one of the greatest dribblers in the game. Ball control is not necessarily dribbling. Don't CONFUSE things.
Dribbling is ball control during movement, which is a big part of Messi's game. I find Messi to be a devastating dribbler, but not necessarily an artistic one like Maradona, Ronaldinho, Best or Garri. By the way, that's also how Pele was, intelligent and effective but not the most genial dribbler either.
I'm not confusing things, that you think it is absurd I say that Messi is a great dribbler. This is not the first time that we say that I am confused, no, I'm not. Who is you are confusing things. You even admitted that Messi has great ball control, great technique and speed. In ALL MATCHES he goes through several defenders the way he wants, always passing through four, five players at once, always giving dry cuts and stuff. This is not dribble? How so? What is the difference for a Maradona? Maradona did the same thing: he was so skilled that he took the ball and was dribbling past defenders with ease. It's the SAME thing that Messi does today. The fact that Messi seem limited when speed is not because he is at the pinnacle and his game was created thereby. Messi is a player who always search goal and the goal. He is a striker. For what reason he would pick up the ball and in a corner of the field making skills, tricks and stuff? But now, I'll tell you one thing: Messi dribbling at speed as it is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than without dribbling speed in a corner. You said you've played ball and knows it. Do not confuse Messi with a mere corridor. He not only runs. The difference is that it is very fast, so you do not like to see the great skill he has.
And it said that Maradona and Ronaldinho was better if I said I had no such intention. I consider them all the same level.
I'll post again, so that they understand. According to you, Messi should stop giving the ball and get more tricks. hahaha this video is a good example
Me. I am the best dribbler in the world. I have done that and more when I was 4... Seriously, though...we need to decide where the current tournaments in the world stand at if we go off games against Getafe and whatnot to see who was the best dribbler. If the WC is important, yay! If not, the freakin' G-14 and FIFA should say so and we can all move on. Right now, all I care about is the Paulista/Brasileirao and, to some degree, the Libertadores. I am pretty much tired of heaving the G-14 crying about world tournaments, traveling, this and that. They merely sound like a bunch of bitches that cry about any little thing that does not go their way. The prime culprit were the British but that crying has spread all over Europe.
Right... You could dribble multiple professional footballers while making it look easy when you were 4. How's that transfer to Barcelona going, considering you had that kind of immense, fearsome talent when you were 4? The rest of your post seems to be going off on a irrelevant, petulant tangent, although I will say this: Messi's international stature as one of the best ever to play the game, and that includes dribbling, considering it was a major part of most of the all-time greats' games such as Maradona, Pele, and Cruyff, is undisputed among most circles.
Messi bores me. It is like watching some HS punk from today picking on elementary school kids with others claiming he could beat Muhammad Ali just because he is flashy while doing it. Either the world cup is the measuring pole or it can go away. The prize money, after four years of travel and whatnot, is not all that great. Especially if you don't finish in the top three since even fourth place gets such a crappy amount for all the BS one goes through, fan and players alike. The prestige? Highly questionable now. Sportingly? Even more of a question whether it helps a team or not. And yes, Captain Oblivious...it is relevant if we are going to claim a player, that couldn't win a Copa America played at home (much less the WC) is one of the best in history. We need to reexamine the current tournaments and see if they are worth that much. Look what happened to the Eurocup...come 2020, it will be reduced to a laughingstock all for the sake of money (if it comes). Of course...Platini made sure to host one last decent Euro (take a guess where?) in the same fashion that the 1938 WC was held in France (since war was imminent) just so most of America can give the Europeans and the WC the middle finger. That speaks "highly" of a competition's prestige.. Platini also made sure to let the Turks know that he thinks they should shove it when they complained about a nation hosting something three times when others, who are very capable, doesn't get even one.... Is it worth a nation spending billions of dollars on a tourney that wouldn't generate half the expenses and only provide home-field advantage?
If you read again what I wrote, you'll see that I NEVER said Messi isn't a great dribbler. He is just not amongst the greatest. It's not his main characteristic. Simple. Indeed Messi goes past defenders with ease, which, AGAIN, does not necessarily make him a great dribbler (although he is one), but much more a player with explosive speed and ball control. Dribbling is when you can get past through adversaries without needing to be running a lot and in a small space, which are not Messis's main characteristics (although he obviously have them in certain measure). I find Neymar to have more of those dribbling skills than Messi, although Messi is infinitely a superior player than Neymar. Again... confused. I never said he doesn't have skills. He has them by the lot. But skills can be many things, not only dribbling skills.
You can even find a great dribbler Messi, but feels that he is far from the best in history. Which are the best? The players you mentioned earlier? If so, I see no great difference Messi for these players. And I speak only of dribbling. I believe that the concept of dribbling is very different to all who post on this topic. If Messi has a great technique, great ball control, knows how to use his speed and because of that nobody evades defenders with ease and skill, because it can not be considered a great dribbler? What he needs to show more on dribbling to be at the level of TOP? More tricks with the ball stop? I have explained why he did not do it in large quantities.
This is a discussion that will only have an end when Messi begin to suffer serious physical problems and not have the same speed. So who is right: Messi dribbling just know when you have speed or if he has so much technique to the point of even bad physically able to dribble, to tricks and stuff with great skill.
Messi bores you? That's an argument you have decided to put forth? Spain puts you to sleep, yet they are extraordinarily effective. This is not about most entertaining dribbler, or else we'd all pick Ronaldinho and be done with it. Messi has perfected the art of utilizing very simple yet very effective moves whilst also using his insane acceleration and speed to dribble his opponents. Just because someone is not flashy or entertaining has zero bearing on effectiveness. Wait... In your next sentence you say that people say Messi could best Maradona, which is what I suppose you mean by the analogy, because he's flashy. Is Messi "flashy" or "boring"? Either he's not flashy, and is therefore overrated because he utilizes simple moves even a four-year-old could do, or he is flashy, and is therefore overrated because he wows everyone so much people compare him with Maradona because he's flashy? You're dabbling in contradictory arguments here, and I cannot rebut unless you pick one, although I doubt the defences of Real, Mexico, Atletico, Benifica, etc. are comparable to kindergarten kids, unless you're saying Messi makes everyone look like kindergarten kids. As for the international argument, Messi is, at the end of the day, one player in a team of eleven, and the Argentina team of 86 was much more than Maradona, just like the West Germany team of 86 was much more than Matthaus, despite common belief. As for the WC and Euro rant, restating it does not make it more relevant to Messi's dribbling skill.
Messi is a great dribbler, but not one of the greatest, like Garrincha, Ronaldinho, Maradona and Pelé. To be honest, even players who were nowhere near that league as overall players, like Denílson and Djalminha, were world-class dribblers. Agree. That may cause big confusion. But I think futsal players are usually called the best dribblers for a reason: they can get past their defenders in a small space without the use of great speed and acceleration. To me, that's the essence of the greatest dribblers and, to me, it's not Messi's main characteristic. I see it more present in Neymar, even though he is nowhere near Messi as a player overall (yet). Messi is already on top without needing to be the top dribbler. He doesn't need to do anything else to prove he's a great player, mate. No player in history was complete in every way, except maybe for Pelé. But Pelé is another story. As people say, he was not from this planet. He wasn't human.
I have to say after reading this discussion that I think it is the others who are confused. Messi is so great a dribbler that it confuses some observers. If he was a less great dribbler they would actually be more impressed. He doesn't make it look difficult or complicated enough. Just speed would be somebody like C Ronaldo, not Messi.
TRICKS ARE FOR KIDS. Why do you think Maradona is constantly referred to as one of the greatest dribblers of all time, or George Best? Because they had an ability to get past defenders with the ball at their feet. Messi can stand still and beat opponents. Just because Neymar does a rainbow and 3 step overs to get past 1 player and it looks spectacular doesnt make him a better dribbler. When you mature you will realize it takes maturity and class do avoid using those eccentric moves esp when they arent necessary. Messi uses a roulette maybe twice a year and its the element of surprise that makes it special and catches the defense off guard. Its all about maturity vs immaturity in my eyes. Class vs tacky. Messi is class
Spain and Messi are two different things, Captain Oblivious. For one, Messi doesn't play with Spain...seriously.... He sured wowed me, and millions of people, in Argentina two summers ago, heh? He sure wowed me against Germany in 2010....my jaw was literally touching the ground...but that was from rolling on the ground laughing. You should check ole.clarin.com or canchallena. In the eyes of argentines, he is just another player. Let's not even get how Messi is viewed in Brasil. No team plays with one man, I know that better than most people. My club happened to bring about the best player in history. But Maradona was instrumental in 1986. The same for Paolo Rossi (damn him) in 1982 and so on... Messi? I don't remember anything spectacular from him in the past two world cups. Never mind that...he has been instrumental for his national team in just one tournament victory: Argentina's 3-0 against Mexico. That's it. But if some argentine wants to be satisfied with that set-up, that's them. That doesn't make him good when the results don't show. Actually, it does. Because we get into measuring meters. Ans since so many are saying that he is extremely skillful, even the best in history, then we have to question if the WC is any good to keep around.
As usual, you're confusing great player with great dribbler (solely). Tip: Read the whole discussion and try to learn a little bit more about football. Then, come back here.
in general, I have the same point of view with you. Some here are confused between ball control and dribbling skills. I play and do coaching ... aha 1- Ball control is the most "basic attribute" that fooballer is required - Hence it helps in dribbling, but its' NOT a "dribbling skillset" per se ... Yeah, in the end you can say what the heck I do I just get passed a player. However, everything must be discussed in a CONTEXT. A good example of "great ball control" is Zidane (or Bergkamp Socrates GF Zola ...) but no one would say they are "great dribbler" - even though they are very good in dribbling. 2- Dribbling skills needs many attributes combined to be "perfect": 2.1- Ball control (you need the ball at your feet as BASIC) 2.2- Tactical dribbling (techniques) 360 turn, Fllipgflap, Step overs, elasticos, Cruijff turn, Ronaldo chop, the "Ronaldo move" , Puskas moves ...) 2.3- Pure dribbling (tricks) dropping shoulder, step a side and turns fake steps, blind look, nutmeg 2.4 Acceleration (to pass player when execute a move) 2.5 Speed (to rush over another speedy DF) 2.6 Balance (gotta stand on your feet as the ball moves) 2.7 Instinct (how to decide a move within a sub-miliseconds?) 2.8 Last and not least .... Intelligence (like changing to the right direction, or predict DF reaction_) =========================================== Great dribblers should have at least 6 to all 8 elements in the above (I might miss some) like Garrincha, Pele, Maradona, Cruijff Ronaldo, GBest ... and arguably Messi (who lacked of "tactical dribbling skills) Other near perfect who might got 4,5 elements:are Ronaldinho Baggio Okocha (Who lack of acceleration and speed) Denilson lacked of intelligence and instinct ) ... Hope this helps
You just hopped on here 5 posts ago and you're telling me to read the discussion? There's a difference between being able to do loads of tricks and doing them when they arent necessary. The latter lacks maturity and is tacky. The difference between Messis dribbling and Neymars is that Messis dribbling is a natural ability that he was born with and Neymars is a learned skill. One tries too hard, the other just runs. One gets past 1 player using a ton of tricks, another gets past 2 players doing one trick. Messi is johnny walker blue label, Neymar is Johnny Walker red label. You have a really immature view on dribbling Messis touch and dribbling technique is once in a generation, and Neymars circus acts can be seen anywhere.
The comparison still holds true between Messi and Spain. You have got to be kidding me; Messi was the only one truly fighting on that pitch against Germany; he was creating, DRIBBLING, shooting, etc. Argentina was let down by tactical stupidity on Maradona's part and by their defence, not by any inadequacy Messi showed. FYI, ultimately this comes down to Messi's dribbling, not Messi in Argentina and whether or not he could have done more against Germany. Could Maradona had done more in 1990? Could Cruyff had done more in 1974? Could Ronaldo had done more in 1998? It is a moot and useless point because it is very hard to isolate the team from the player in any given situation, and even harder to isolate a player's single attribute (dribbling) from the team over the course of a single game. You saw in that video Messi beating multiple defenders simaltaneously over the course of multiple games against opposition both strong and weak. Take it or leave it.
I bet you're a great football player yourself to know so much about natural ability and learned skill. Both Neymar and Messi are naturals, but Neymar is more of a dribbler and Messi is more of a player that relies on speed and ball control (and he is the better overall player obviously), as most people agreed with. You're simply unable to make a convincing point so far and, as usual, you're still confusing better PLAYER with better DRIBBLER. When analyzing a dribbler, you have to disregard what happens next, if they play continues or not. From the moment you start taking those factors into account (which you are), you're not evaluating who's the better dribbler anymore, but the better player. That's what you simply don't get. End of discussion.