Batista releases list for Spain friendly. Zanetti and Cambiasso are back.

Batista is being nice to all the players to help get him the job.The fact is this is a squad full of failures.Zanetti,Cambiasso,Demichelis and others have contributed nothing to the seleccion.They can win all you like in europe they arent good enough.
Leaving Pastore out is the only clear signal of where he intends to go and that suggests an ugly team like that played v Ireland and dependance on Messi who does not suggest at any moment for the seleccion he is going to do a Maradona.
I dont like his ideas at all the best we can hope for is an unlikely Spanish win to get rid of him
We might do ok in friendlies in the Monumental but Copa Americas or Mundiales with these not a hope

 

Not picking Pastore and choosing 5 defensive/defensively minded midfielders is not a good sign, not a good sign at all.

 

Well said, he's wants the gig of full time NT manager so is like an old rock band and playing all the old crowd pleasers, he's gone for the populist choices.

 

I think its pretty early to be flipping out. He has made some changes to the squad, but you cannot expect him to scrap 10-15 players and bring in on young kids.

People want us to follow the example of Brazil who did an overhaul on their squad, but remember, Brazil does not have to qualify for the World Cup, we do. The CONMEBOL qualifiers are going to be more difficult than ever- All the teams are better and will be desperate to play in the WC on our home continent.

There fore rigt now, the goal is the Copa America, and from there WCQs. I have no doubt Batista will incorporate younger players as he sees fit, but its obvious that Samuel, even though he will be 36 in 2014, is by far the best we have and needs to stay in the team.

Heinze may even be the best option we have at left back, it is sad to say. Ansaldi i know is highly rated at leftback, but we have all talked about how hard it is for our players to be noticed in Russia.

The best payers are always the guys not being chosen, but lets remember even though Batista is obviously picking many senior players to bolster his credentials to take the job, he brought in new blood in the midfield and he called up Zabaleta. He clearly is trying to improve the squad, and if he felt that these young defenders were as good as some people on these boards do, he would have called them. Its quite possible that Zabaleta is really the only "new" (at 25 i won't call him young) defender deemed good enough

PS- no one has mention- NO JONAS

 

I think Batista wants to call senior players to help get their support to stay on full time.

He also may be playing to the crowd a bit by bringing back Zanetti and Cambiasso, because they were the two biggest casualties, while there is progress with Banega, D'Allesandro, and Zabaleta.

D'Allesandro is a serious talent. People sometimes get too carried away by the fact that he didn't do it in europe, but he has every bit of talent and probably more than Pastore. If he has his head on straight he is quite an asset to the NT.

Oh and if people want to bash Batista for picking too many 5's, i hope you all took notice of Sabella last night. He played a 5-4-1 against Banfield for god's sake. Batista is clearly the best candidate given the circumstances.

 

I am not saying we do a Brasil but we need a PLAN.Maradona was right about one thing and that was Zanetti and Cambiasso have nothing to offer.they have failed.Under Basile and indeed before they were a disaster.
also we must forget Demichelis and Heintze.Lets get on with it , face facts.
I dont agree Batista is the best for the job.I have nothing against him he was a great player and did ok for the Olimpics.
We also must address the key question.Do we or not build a team around messi or is he just another player.For me Messi is a very skilful neat player but hes no Maradona.In fact hes no Kempes not to mind el Diez.
The tecnico I want is someone who realises yes we have an excellent player here who can be very important but is no superstar.
Lets be honest what has he done for the selecion that Kun hasnt

 

I'm not sure how you can say that. Zanetti was axed from the squad. Now I am not going to pretend that Zanetti has ever played as well for his club as the NT, but aside from the match against Bolivia, he has always been consistent.

Zanetti's replacement chosen by Maradona, Otamendi, was the obvious weak link in the team against Germany as was directly responsible for both of Germany's first two goals. The first one especially changed the complete out look of that match.

You call Zanetti a failure, but who in the NT isn't?

What is your definition of failure? The NT won a higher percentage of games with Zanetti in the team than Maradona or Batistuta or Simeone or Ruggeri.

The only player with a better record winning % wise than El Pupi are Crespo and Ayala. Are these players failures too?

I really don't know how you can call any of these guys failures. Ayala had a meltdown against Brazil and missed a PK in 2006 and was skinned by Bergkamp in 1998. Is he a failure?

Honestly, I wouldn't call anyone who played over 100 times for the NT a failure.

you can say they only played as much b/c there were no good alternatives, but in that case the guys like Pochetino who never grabbed a position are the failures, not Zanetti and Ayala who were mainstays for over a decade in the NT

 

I imagine that had this forum existed after the 82' World Cup you would be saying the exact same things about Diego right? That he's no superstar because he didn't do as well and he was sent off against Brasil?

If Messi had been sent off because of some stupidity against Brasil in an important match this cup people would be calling for his head.

 

and if Messi play in 80's, he's not going to make it into every world cup cause he'll probably got injured week by week. None of his marker even marked him the way the 80 defender marked maradona.

 

Lets be fair when rating a player too, just because he has more than 100 caps doesnt mean he's actually doing something outstanding, he always play at least in good form but outstanding? no, far from it in fact.

 

I agree with most of your points except that Zanetti & Cambiasso, despite far from outstanding in NT they're much better than the other players that Argentina has at the moment. I'm ok with having 2-4 senior players combine it with the younger generation.

I agree on Messi's part too, the reason he became top scorer in world youth cup was because Kun won both penalty and he took it. Messi scored 2 at olympic but Kun also scored 2 and it was against Brazil. Kun also won the youth cup once more and becoming top scorer and best player. Messi scored 4 goals in qualifier, so did Kun.

 

How is this relevant at all to what I'm saying? What a massive strawman.

People continue to insist on comparing Maradona at his best and his legacy to Messi now. Why not compare both players at the same age?

Kun was quite poor in the Olympics. All you're pointing out is that goals aren't everything.

 

Ive got some stick for causeing these two failures.Ok they arent futbol failures as in their careers but in the seleccion yes they are.
Argentina fans expect or should expect their teams to WIN Copa Americas or Mundiales.Zanetti played in 98 and 2002 and did ok in the first and was absolutely terrible in the second.Copa America the same story **********footing while the Brasucas hammer us

Cuchu who has played in River is a neat good professional but he hasnt done it either
Zanetti and Cambiasso will be far too old in the next World cup and I would prefer we bring players on who have hopes of playing.I understand he is not useing home based players until the Brasil friendly in December so its abit of a problem.
As for the ridiculous comparison of Messi in 2010 and Maradona in 82,well lets talk about it.In 82 in his first Mundial Diego fought like a dog to get us thru scored two spectacular goals and showed leadership qualities in a team full of World cup winners.
Messi in 2010 in his second Mundial showed some neat futbol but failed to ignite at any stage and never even for a moment showed any leadership.In fact if he showed a bit of passion against the Germans and got himself sent off it might have suggested he has the cojones needed for the future.People can dream Messi is a new Maradona but ive seen both and while La pulga is a lovely player he isnt in the same league and we should stop deludeing ourselves building a team around him whilst the likes of Agüero are left wasted on the bench

 

Alright, I'll bite. Aside from the two goals against Brazil (which were huge for us), Aguero did 0 at the Olympics. I'm not talking about scoring, he just didn't play well. Aguero won the Youth Cup once more than Messi, true. But incase you forgot, Messi was also eligible to play at the 2007 U20 World Cup. But he was already a superstar and had won the tournament once before. So Messi could have played in that tournament and we would have dominated with him even more-so than we did.

In the qualifiers, Messi scored 4 and so did Aguero. Overall though, they both didn't play that well and suffered mostly because of the system used. Aguero-Tevez-Messi together up front or Tevez-Messi up front which we all know has never worked. When Riquelme was there, Messi played great and his goal scoring ratio was amazing for Argentina. Literally, up until Riquelme's last match.

Not to hate on Aguero, because I think he's extremely talented, but honestly, aside from the match against Russia, I never thought he had a great match with the National Team. Qualifiers, he maybe had one good match and that was against Uruguay at home when we beat them. Aside from that, there's no match that really stands out in my mind. Against Greece at the World Cup? He missed a very good chance and that was it.

In any case, all of our players need to play under a proper system and at this point, it seems like Batista's system is a more defensive one (or atleast alot more defensive then what we saw at the Olympics). Argentine soccer fan said it best, we literally have 7 players who can play the same position. I'm all for adding strength and depth do our defence, but I think that's overkill. Taking Bolatti off for someone like Pastore or Perotti would have been great because out of all of our #5's, I think Bolatti's the weakest at this point. I'm getting the feeling this is the last time Demichelis and Heinze will play for Argentina (assuming they play). Heinze's days are numbered and Demichelis is as good as gone.

Really excited to see D'Alessandro. I think he's matured as a player (or atleast not nearly as bad as he was before) and he could be a valuable asset to the team. The reason why he stopped getting called up to the team was because of Riquelme. And after that came Diego. He's playing really well at the moment and was a key part in Inter's Libertadores victory. If he keeps up his form for Inter and plays well for Argentina, I see no reason not to pick him for the Copa America... as long as he doesn't take penalty kicks.

Same thing goes for Zanetti, Cambiasso, Samuel and Gabriel Milito. If they keep playing like this and do well for the National Team, they should be there for the Copa America. And by then, who knows what kind of progress (if any) Garay, Insua, Fazio, Pareja, Guillermo Burdisso and our other defenders will have made.

 

He didnt score against Greece, he did not play full mins
He came off from bench against Korea and assisted a goal.
Messi played full mins in all games.

You mentioned that in 2007 Messi was already superstar so he did not participate but whatever the reason was, Aguero proof to be the best player of the tournament just like Messi in 2005 and I already pointed Messi won both penalty in the final which converted by Messi. Fair enough.

Messi has 26 goals in CL with team called the golden generation Barcelona
Aguero has 10 goals in CL with Atletico Madrid.
Messi best achievement with Barca was champions league title and Aguero won Europa with weaker team. Aguero is a year younger...fair enough.

 

I already pointed that Aguero won both penalties in 2005 youth final, scored 2 against Brazil at olympic and also won 2007 youth cup as top scorer and best player , yet you only pointed his failure.

What a massive strawman

on the Maradona comparison, your point is absurd. Ronaldinho won the world cup, helping Brazil with 2 goals and 2 assist in 2002, he was still young player at the time... but what did he achieve in 2006 & 2010? nothing. So perhaps your assumption is Messi will be as good as Maradona in national team when he's 25-30 years old. Well, lets see.. if it does happen you're happy, I'm happy... if not the comparison fail forever.

 

Messi barely played in 2006 so this first mundial thing is irrelevant. Look at it any way but the fact is that neither had a dominating performance.

Messi deserves a bit more leverage because 1) He was playing under an inexperienced coach with little understanding of tactics. 2) He was played completely out of position. It's incredible that people refuse to look at these things when judging him.

If Messi had gotten sent off people would be hating and talking even more crap about him than they already had prior to the cup.

 

Aguero did not play the full 90, but the minutes he did play, he did absolutely nothing in them. Messi played all the games but was instrumental in alot of our goals. He should of had a hattrick against Nigeria, Messi played a huge factor in 3 of our 4 goals against Korea (sent in the cross for the own goal, hit the post and Higuain scored on the rebound, sent in the chip cross to Aguero on Higuain's third goal). Against Greece, he played as CM, had a shot which hit the post and Palermo scored on the rebound. Against Mexico he had an assist. That's 4 direct assists on Argentina's goals at the World Cup, excluding Higuain's third goal against Korea and while playing out of position.

No doubt, Aguero was the player of that tournament.

How many times has Messi carried Barcelona though? With Iniesta out injured alot of times last season, Xavi playing below his usual level and Ibrahimovic in a huge rut for quiet a while last season, Messi single handidly won games for them. And I'm sorry, but if you think Aguero has been carrying Atletico for the past two seasons, you're wrong. It's been a certain Diego Forlan.

I'm trying not to come off as an Aguero hater, because I like him and I think he's an excellent player, but the past two seasons he has been doing nothing for Atletico. It's been all Forlan.

 

2014 is going to be the ultimate test for Messi, he will be 27 by then, Maradona was 26 in '86, so then we will see if Messi deserves to be ranked alongside the all time greats such as Maradona and Pele. I agree with Palermo, Messi is a great player, but, as yet, he is not a leader the wat Maradona was, nor does he have Maradona's mental toughness, but as I say, he's still only 23 and it will be fairer to make comparison after 2014.

As for Aguero, I am a huge fan of his, in terms of sheer, natural talent, I don't think he is that far behind Messi, I'm just glad they are both Argentines,but I would like to see Aguero move to a club that can challenge for trophies as that is the next logical step for him.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove with this comparison... comparing what they did at the U20 level and champions league has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

@saeta rubia- I agree with you that Messi should not be untouchable in the team. He did some brilliant things in the world cup. i tend to think that had the Nigerian keeper not played the game of his life and messi bagged a goal or two in the first game the whole tournament would have been different for him. After that, he was pressing and had some terrible luck. But yes I agree he didn't step up against Germany, but no one did apart from Mascherano.

I don't think we should build the team around Messi. We have far too many talented players for one guy to be the focal point. I say play a 4-2-3-1 and let messi play on the right and have D'Allesandro be the playmaker

-------------------Whoever
Zanetti------Samuel------?G. Milito?------Heinze
---------------Banega-------Masche
-----Messi-----------Da'llesandro--------Di Maria
-----------------------Higuain

 

Agreed 100%! Althought I would prefer Bianchi being that the WC will be in Brazil. Either way I'm not displeased with Batista (just sometimes he makes himself sound too needy).

 

Pastore has to be the player we look to as our play maker, he has all the attributes of a top quality midfielder, he has vision, is a good passer, he can also dribble and score and he is quick.

I think in the next few years our team should be:

------------------Romero--------------------

Zabeleta-----------Otamendi------------Garay-----------Asinadi


-------------------Masch-------------Banega-----------



--------------------------Pastore-------------


Messi------------------------------------Di Maria

---------------Higuain-------------------

Obviously, I'm making assumptions about the defence, but we really need some top quality centre halfs to crop up in Argentina.

As for D'Allesandro, sorry but he is another one (like Aimar, Cambiasso) that I file under "has never done anything for the NT", Pastore has done more in one season in europe than D'Allesandro ever managed.

 

What failure did I point out? I said he didn't have a good Olympics which is the truth. You're saying he scored 2 goals as if that somehow makes a difference to the quality of his playing overall in he tournament which was not good.

Arg10 and leo already covered some of your other stuff.

Also where did you get that Aguero has 10 goals in the CL? From what I see he has 5.

What the hell does Ronaldinho have to do with anything? Again you keep going off on irrelevant tangents.

When did I claim Messi will be good as Diego was when he's 25? I'm saying that it's absurd to try to hold up Messi right now to the standard of Diego at his best for Argentina. It makes a TON more sense to compare both of them when they were the same age and say what you want but Diego did not have a great cup in 82' either and he was sent off against Brazil. Get it?

If people wanted to kill Messi for some stupid reasons like the fact that he scored against Estudiantes and celebrated it imagine what they would do if he got sent off against the biggest rival in the biggest competition in the world?

 

Well, Aimar, Cambiasso, Zanetti are worldclass players, no doubt, which mean they possess world class ability, they helped the team to confederation & copa final but when facing the big opponent they failed... and when you conceiding 3, 4 or 6 goals it's not the strikers fault. Its either goalkeeper or defence line problem. Demichelis and Heinze proof to be 100% incapable while Cambiasso and Zanetti simply play like average players nothing more. At the moment Mascherano is the only top qualify midfielder who play at highest level in national team too. I think Pastore will be given chance in near future,the coach will not risking the team by using 21 years old playmaker against team like Spain, perhaps.

 

Mind you Dr have you see clips of '82 and the treatment meted out to Maradona, in particulaer by Italy, dear oh dear, if people think Holland put it about against Spain they should go onto You Tube and watch clips of Maradona getting assaulted, if they did that now the player would be getting charged with attempted murder. No wonder he snapped and kicked that Brazillian in the goolies.