Ballon d'Or 2012 Thread...

And next to all those scoring records he has the most assists of all players in any club, how some people can actually claim that anyone has been a better individual player as Messi this season is absolutely mind boggling.

 

Cool! So are you one of those people that argued Messi shouldn't have won WPOTY in 2010 because he "only" won La Liga and now are arguing that CR7 should win in 2012 because he won La Liga?

2010 was a tough choice and 2012 will be a tough choice too. In both years, you have in one hand the best player(s) but they didn't win a lot. And in the other hand, you have players who are clearly not as good, but helped their team win some big trophies. So it's a tough call.

 

(22:18) Looks like our friends at Press Pass already settled it. Sounds about right, After all the Ballon D'Or is awarded for individual performances. Messis's numbers this season are historical in football no matter how people try to diminish it.

 

First, Ronaldo is a wing-forward who takes more shots than any other player. Messi is a playmaking-forward who makes more passes/assists than true playmakers. If Barca is so focused on getting Messi into goalscoring positions, then how come he has plays often so deep into midfield positions and how come he has more assists than anyone else on his team? And isn't Real M also focused on getting Ronaldo into goalscoring positions?

Second, Messi rarely crosses from open play because he is mainly playing through the middle of the field. He does cross from free-kicks and corner kicks though. For a "winger" as you say, Ronaldo doesn't cross that often from open play either.

Third, for you to say Messi deserves nothing for this season is even more laughable considering that he has the best individual season for any player for the last few decades. He has broken records with his goalscoring. Tell me another player in the last decades who has scored 72 goals and given 29 assists!

 

I don't wanna waste words and time addressing every one of your ridiculous statements. Instead I will stick to responding to the main ones.

If Messi's teammates are so focused on working for him to score goals, then how come Messi has more assists than anyone else on his team? How come he has more through balls than anyone else on his team (and the rest of the players from other teams in Europe)? How come only 44% of his goals have been assisted by his teammates without Messi's participation in the plays except for the finishing part? For comparison, 71% of Ronaldo's goals have been assisted by his teammates without his participation in the build up play. For the second season in a row, Messi has been his team's leading scorer and leading playmaker, leading his team in goals and assists. If his teammates work for him as per your claims, then how come Messi has to play deeper and deeper into midfield positions? How come he doesn't just sit up front and wait for his teammates to deliver the ball to him in front of goal?

Both Messi and Ronaldo play with top-class teammates. Don't even try to deny that fact, because it makes you look like you understand even less about the game. The difference this season is that Ronaldo's teammates contributed more than Messi's teammates. How come they contributed more if they aren't top-class?

Yes, Ronaldo deserves credit for performing in some key games, scoring beautiful goals, etc. But Messi also deserves credit for having an outstanding individual season, breaking records (one of which set by Ronaldo himself) and leading his team to title fights all the way until the very end. He was absolutely more important for Barca than Ronaldo was for Real M, because without his goals, assists and overall plays, Barca would not even be in the top 4 in La Liga or progress to semi-final of CL. It is plainly obvious that Barca have become too dependent on Messi and his performances.

 

At some point I honestly believed it when they said people get smarter as they mature or get old but your logic makes me doubt that saying. 1. Ronaldo taking more shots than any breathing species in the world got nothing to do with the whole debate. Anyone who watches Real Madrid knows Ronaldo takes shot at any opportunity, which most people (I'm asuming real soccer/football followers) know that majority of them have 20/30% chance of being goals. If he scores it will always be great but in all honestly everybody knows because of taking chances at any positions his conversion rate will always be very low compared to the likes of Inzaghi, Gomez, and Messi who attempts in what one can call obvious chances, so in my opinion that point is mute.

2. I agree with you that Messi is a playmaking forward who makes who makes more ??/assists than true playmakers. Making more passes is absolute nonsense, but he makes more assists because he's always plays close to the goals. Imo in most cases its either him getting the goal or giving assist as he is always furtherst on the pitch to all Barca players. This doesn't mean sometimes he'll be in the middles but in most cases that will be the case.

This is just my opinion, If Real Madrid was as focused on serving Ronaldo as Barca is on Messi Ronaldo will be on something like 88 while Higuain and Benzema will be on 14 and 18 respectively. If you real watch Benzema and Higuain they are selfish, but I'm sure you won't see because your focus will be on Messi or Fabregas/Sanchez.

On stats, if I remember last season the theme was about "stats mean nothing without winning a major trophy for the team". How quickly the wheel turns????

 

Messi shouldn't have won in 2010, because he won nothing, but the La Liga and was anonymous in all key games that season in the CL and the WC. Meanwhile Xavi and Iniesta led Spain to a World Cup, while Sneijder led Inter to a treble and had a spectacular World Cup. All Messi had was numbers (racked up by being the focus point of a team with 70+% possession).

This year the problem is that no one in Bayern or Chelsea has been a standout player, so no-one there is in consideration for the Balon d'Or. Hence the two obvious choices left are Messi and CR7. On the one hand you have a player who won nothing this season, but racked up multiple goals in meaningless games and flopped in big games. On the other hand you have a player who racked up goals against every all opposition, performed in all big games, scored spectacular goals and his biggest flaw is he didn't score as much MEANINGLESS goals against minor opposition.

Ergo: Choice 1: Someone who thrashed scrubs, but dissapointed when it mattered and didn't win anything for his team. Choise 2: Someone who also thrashed scrubs, but didn't dissapoiny when it mattered and played a key role in winning a key trophy for his team.

The choice for me is pretty obvious.

 

Nobody cares what the obvious choice is for you, at the end of the day Messi is likely going to win his 4th straight world player of the year. And it's not even that big of a deal.

 

Huge exaggeration on the differences in performances in big matches b/w Messi and Ronaldo. Ronaldo outplayed Messi in the second league clasico, but in the first-one he was terrible and Messi was great! So that evens out. Which were the other big games involving Madrid this season? Just Bayern when Ronaldo missed the critical penalty just like Messi did against Chelsea.

You have some deep hatred for Messi for whatever reason and it shows in all of your posts. Seek help.

 

By his theory we should not count the Supercopa when Messi scored 3 goals(Against who? that's right, Madrid), because this trophy rolled over from last seasons play... Also neither should the CWC where he scored in the final, or UEFA Super Cup... None of these should count,lol. But if Ronaldo had played and scored in these matches, he would say look, Ronaldo scored in ALL of these games, won THIS MANY trophies, etc etc. Ronaldo wins La Liga, and he hopes and prays that Bilbao wins the Copa del Rey so he could say "Messi won zero titles this year".

 

Cristiano Ronaldo outperformed Messi in 3 of the 4 classicos this season, including the key one, which won them the league. Plus Messi wasn't great in the first classico. He was decent and better than CR7.

The other big games? All the games in La Liga, in which RM struggled to get a result, but time after time CR7 stepped up to win Real Madrid the game (like with his audacious backheel goal). Meanwhile Messi has consistently failed to be the difference all season long and most of his goals come from absolute thrashings of opposition.

Plus - are you really comparing CR7's Bayern performance, where he scored 2 goals against opposition on a similar level and had a penalty in a shootout SAVED by one of the best GKs in the world to Messi's Chelsea performance, where he was culpable for losing one goal, missed a penalty and was totally nullified over two legs by inferior opposition playing against 10 men?

 

Dude... you do know that the next Balon d'Or is given for performances in 2012? Not in 2011.

And even if it wasn't the CWC is currently a joke title, which is almost guaranteed to Europeans sides due to the immense disparity in class and cash.

Plus - isn't it funny that when Barcelona won all possible titles in 2008/2009 Blaugrana fans counted the CWC and Super Copas as trophies won in 2008/2009 (shouting around that they won 6 titles that season), but when Barcelone fail to win anything in 2011/2012 then suddenly the CWC and Supercopa 'count' as trophies won in 2011/2012

You can't help but laugh at how ridiculously manipulative the Cules are

 

Ronaldo was actually very quiet in the second league clasico except for that one play where he scored. And that's what matters, but it's not like he had a great all-around game.

PS.. there were 6 clasicos this season, not 4.

What a load of rubbish, but that is to be expected from you. Both Messi and Ronaldo were involved in an equal number of thrashings. Madrid struggled to get results? Their goal difference is +86, about the same as Barca's, which tells you their average win was by 3 goals. Messi scored some 75% of Barca's goals since January, so if they were thrashings it was mostly Messi's doing.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you that Messi had a good season and you're not going to convince me that Ronaldo had a better season than Messi so we might as well drop it. We all know how this is going to end... Messi with another Ballon d'Or and you contemplating suicide.

 

Agreed. But he was better than Messi in that game.

No. There were 4. Super Copas count as last season in my book. And they did in the books of Cules fans pre-2011/2012 season (before they stopped winning meaningful trophies).

Unlike Messi CR7 didn't force out all the proven goalscorers from the team so he could hog the spotlight.

 

I realize I'm not discovering anything new when I state that Ronaldo takes more shots than anyone else. What this has to do with the debate is the fact that Ronaldo takes more attempts at goal in order to score his goals. zahzah was pointing out the fact that Ronaldo is a winger while Messi is a forward, as if that should mean that Messi gets more chances to score goals or something, which of course is not true.

This proves to me that you do not watch Barca games. Messi is not the furthest Barca player in attack. He often drops so deep that he plays as a midfielder. I would even go as far as to say that in attack, Messi plays deeper than Ronaldo does for Real M.

I've watched all Real M games and all Barca games this season. Real M are focused on giving Ronaldo the ball. The fact that 71% of his goals come from teammates' plays in which he is only involved in the finishing (not the build up) proves that.

And I remember people saying how better Ronaldo was than Messi because he scored more goals and broke the La Liga scoring record. But it's up to other people to decide who should win the Ballon D'or. I think, at this stage, both players deserve it. At the end there can be only one winner. I'll be happy if Messi wins it again, but I will congratulate Ronaldo if he is the winner also.

 

There have been 6 classicos this season: 2 for the Supercup, 2 in La Liga and 2 for Copa del rey. Messi outperformed Ronaldo in the first 3 classicos. In the 2 CdR classicos they were even - Ronaldo scored, Messi assisted. Only in the last La Liga classico Ronaldo outperformed Messi.

Wrong! Messi has been the difference maker for Barca all season long. His goals and assists have kept Barca in fights for all titles until the end. And you talk as if Real M have won all their games by one goal and that goal was scored by Ronaldo. You know, Real M have also trashed some teams and other players have scored goals too. Yes, Ronaldo made the difference in some games, but not in all of them or in as many as you claim.

In March I saw a comparison, that if you take away Messi's goals from Barca in La Liga, the team would be out of the top 4. If you took away Ronaldo's goals his team would still be in 1st position in La Liga.

Are you really comparing Ronaldo's performance vs Bayern in the 2nd leg vs Messi's performance vs Chelsea in both games? Even though Messi was guilty of giving the ball away in the 1st leg when Chelsea scored and he missed the penalty in the 2nd leg, he was still Barca's best player in both legs and he wasn't nullified. He was still the only one who looked and could do something for Barca.

Meanwhile Ronaldo was invincible vs Bayern, except for one assist in the 1st leg (after he missed a clear 1-on-1 chance) and two early goals in the 2nd leg. Then he missed the first penalty in the shoot-out. The outcome for both players is that they didn't make it to the final. The difference is that Messi played against a "parked bus and a plane" while Ronaldo played against an attacking team in a wide open game.

 

Cuenca, Tello and Iniesta are not proven goalscorers. Not even Pedro is that proven (best La Liga season ever was 13 goals). Alexis matched his goal-tally that he had in Italy, despite being injured part of the season.

 

Do you want me to tell you why Higuain is not playing as much? Because Benzema gets along with Ronaldo more and passes to him more.

Messi had the spotlight even when Eto'o was scoring as much as him and Henry had his best season with Barca. Is not Messi's problem that Villa and Ibra can't score their chances when they played along side the little genius. I don't think Messi was upset when Villa and Pedro scored in the 2011 CL final or when Iniesta scored vs Chelsea in 2009.

 

ROTFL. Like many poeple pointed out and still you choose to ignore: CR7 shoots from any position and often tries the audacious, hence he has a higher shots on goal ratio. its natural and is a result of the way he plays. it doesn't mean he is less effective, just that he doesn't take the vast majority of his shots from the penalty area like a certain Argentinean.

The other made up points have also been ridiculed and successfully rebutted (like the absurd 71% of CR7's goals come from teammates plays whilst Messi...

 

There were 4 classicos this season. messi was better in the first. CR7 was better in the Copa del Rey (albeit slightly). And outperfomed Messi in the most important classico.

I would rather say that they were overly dependent. When Messi was crap most season in away games Barca lost points and games. They have become so focused on Messi that when he doesn't perform (away games for a long stretch of the season, all key games of the season) then Barca has no clue.

Its very likely that if you took Messi out of Barca and forced them to find another way to play they may have well won the La Liga.

The outcome was similar, but if you had to choose the worst player for Barca against Chelsea you would have to pick Messi. If you had to choose the best player for rm against Bayern the player you would probably choose CR7. And thats the key difference.

 

I think there isn't much to separate cr7 and messi this season, which likely
Means messi will win the award because he has
More support then cr7 from many of the voters already. But if cr7 has a
Strong euro 2012 he can win it .

 

That's CR7 biggest flaw - he isn't as widely liked as Messi. And Balon d'Or has become a rather stupid popularity contest as proved by the 2010 vote.

 

They are given for performances in 2012? So, that summer friendlies they play against the Galaxy count then, lol. They are basically given for the 2011-2012 season(for example). And again, Messi will come out and win the award, so keep dreaming. I don't give a damn about Barcelona and would not give a damn if he does or does not win this award.

 

If Ronaldo does not a strong Euro 2012 then he will deserve to win it.

 

what a joke
Messi is playing with inferior players who cant pass the ball properly
guys like Telo are not even third rate yet he started in key games!
Xavi nd Iniesta are overrated, Messi generates most of his chances
Xavi missed a 1v1 after Messi set him up ...could have changed barca's season yet it is Messi who didnt show up lol
as far as Ronaldo being hampered bu Higuain and Benzema...its the other way around

if anything it is Higuain who suffers
question if Messi doesnt handle the scoring/playmaking where would barca end up ? Fighting for with Valencia ? Would they even be able to scrape past "crappy" teams who don't have to sacrifice 3-4 men on Messi each game ?
Madrid without Ronaldo ? Still would win la liga and make their usual fruitless run in the CL....