Ballon d'Or 2012 Thread...

You said Messi scored 5 of his CL goals against a pathetic Bayer team. Now you say they were pathetic because they lost 7-1. But you do realize that they lost 7-1 because Messi scored 5 goals, right? So in a way you are trying to downplay Messi scoring those 5 goals.

Ronaldo played against Apoel. Why didn't he score 5 goals against them? They were even more pathetic. Ronaldo also played against another pathetic team before that, CSKA Moskow. Despite the big marginal loss, at least Bayer played some football, while Apoel and CSKA Moscow played like shit. Therefore they are pathetic teams based on play.

CSKA pathetic? I'm pretty sure Barcelona would have lost to them in Russia. Russian teams are notoriosly hard to beat at home.

And sorry - Bayer played some football? Don't make me laugh - they rolled over and let Barca do whatever they wanted. CSKA may not have been pretty but they disrupted play and made proceedings tough for Real. If that were Barcelona they would have lost.

Barca would had lost in a cold night at Stoke too.

Viktoria Plzen and Bate Borisov anyone?
11 of Messi's goals in the Champions league were against pathetic opposition (with Bayer not being pathetic but giving a pathetic two-legged showing), while the remaining 3 were penalties If you look at it that way than Messi's achievement seems pretty ordinary.

Look dude, I have no intentions of downplaying Messi's achievements. You see it how you want to see it. Frankly, I think something like Messi scoring 3 goals against Madrid when he was 19 (?) displays more of his genius than scoring 5 goals against Bayer Leverkusen especially when they lost the first leg at home 3-1. Obviously not any regular player will do something like that but to me a lot of it comes down to Bayer simply rolling over and having quit.

What makes you think Barca would've lost to CSKA?

And yes, Bayer played football. I watched all the CL games this season. Bayer played more football than Apoel or CSKA.

Leverkusen were decent in the first-leg. If anything they were overly cautious/defensive. They only lost focus/stopped trying in the second-half of the second leg. So I guess you could argue that 3 of the 6 goals by Messi against Bayer were against a pathetic team.

But yes, pretty ordinary by Messi's standards, as its the 4th straight year he leads CL in scoring. How much does that burn your ass?

Because you say Bayer rolled over and quit, that's why they scored a beautiful goal at the end of the 2nd leg, right?

Scoring 5 goals against any team in the CL doesn't happen that often and it is not accomplished by just about anybody. Is scoring 3 goals against Real M at 19 more impressive than 5 goals against Bayer? Yes it is. I'm not arguing it isn't. But still, scoring 5 goals in the CL deserves respect and some due credit. I can only imagine what some people would be saying here if Ronaldo had scored 5 goals in the same CL game (vs Apoel or CSKA for example).......

And if Messi doesn't score those 11 goals against Viktoria and Bate, what would you say? That he can't even score against such teams? No one can pick and choose the opponents they play and score against. You play and score whenever you can against whomever is put in front of you.

Ronaldo also played against weak teams in the CL. Why doesn't he score more goals? He always scores less in the CL than Messi. Why doesn't he try at least one season to score more than Messi in CL like he did last season in La Liga to win the pichichi? It can only help him overtake Messi for the #1 spot and it could be another great individual achievement in his collection, don't you think?

No team'bends over' in the Cl, would be illogical to even suggest that. Every team have a lot in the line and do their uttermost to get a good result. Maybe we should consider the possibility that they actually footballwise got completely outplayed ?

Classic Yonko deflection that you've perfected. Anyways, I'm not the one who stated "I'm done caring what people think anymore" and then come into this thread offended by what people are saying. Fail.

Who gives a shit what you've seen?
I just posted this not too long ago in the Barca forum. So now you can say "you've seen it":

Here's my personal top 5:
1. Cybersexing
2. Spitting on opponents.
3. Kicking balls at fans
4. Headbutting
5. Hgh injections

Holla back when Ronaldo is inserted into the Spanish National Team.

I'm not talking about who Messi sets up, I'm talking about who all the other players are setting up.
Messi setting up teammates has nothing to do with the fact that Barcelona has no true strikers like Madrid. Ronaldo has competition. Messi is the sole go to option. Ronaldo is often overlooked for Benzema or Higuain. They aslo are going to take all their chances as they come as they are competing with eachother for being number 1. They have 57 goals between them, How many differnt players on Barca would you have to go through to get to 57 goals?

Every attack goes through Messi at some point and usually he is on the end of the final pass. He gets far more through balls and lead passes putting him in on goal. There's also the one of a kind combination play that Madrid lacks which Messi scores many many goals from.

Villa wasn't scoring before he was injured, Pedro has been shit for almost two years now, Sanchez really isn't going to ever do more than he has this season and Cesc is no better than at Arsenal. So again, if Messi is such a great teammte and makes everyone around him better why is this so?

It's because he ruins scorers by his insistance on being the principle goal scorer. Didn't Ibra write about this? Everyone must work for Messi. Eto'o probably has a few opinions on the subject as well. Villa went from top 3 striker to Mr. goal drought playing alongside Messi.

Barcelona has a bunch of inch perfect passers and possesion wizards that all could care less about scoring. Then you have Messi who is a brilliant goal scorer to capatilize on this. It's equivilant to Ronaldo having 5 Ozil's.

You're not surprised I was overwhelmed that you for once made sense? lol

Goose-Gander

If you gaveRonaldo as much credit as you're pretending he'd still be you're favorite player like he was before he broke your schoolgirl heart.

If you're going to point out the difference in goal totals how can you ignore the difference in game totals? If one player has 5 more games that's significant. Ronaldo could feasibly score 13 goals in 5 games which is the difference. He scored 11 in 4 last year so 13 in 5 is hardly inconcieveable.

Again your ignorance on full display. This is from the Cristiano thread:

You're going to have to learn to live with the fact that there are people who see things differently than Messi fanbois.

I'm offended by you accusing me of something which is not true - that I hate everyone who doesn't worship Messi.

I didn't say someone needs to give a shit what I've seen. I don't follow all your posts to know everything you post about. But whenever there has been a discussion where you and I are participating, I've never seen you give Messi any credit. Still, even here in this topic I do not see you give him any credit....again.

Classic Ronaldo fanboy-ism.

Ronaldo plays with Casillas, Ramos and Alonso. Plus a great playmaker like Ozil, Di Maria, Benzema and Higuain. Don't tell me these are not players of the highest level! Messi plays with Sanchez, Cuenca, Tello, Pedro, 32-year old Xavi and 34- year old Puyol.

You do realize that with this statement of yours you just confirmed that Messi is more important player for Barca than Ronaldo is for Real M, right? Should I count that as you give some credit to Messi?

Messi gets a lot of passes but he also gives a lot of passes. Look at the stats posted here of how many through balls he has given this season - more than anyone else in Europe and CL. Yes, every attack goes through Messi, because he is the best player and he starts a lot of plays as well as gets on the end of plays he has started. Are you even watching games or just talking out of your "back side"? Meanwhile, your "boyfriend" Ronaldo spends most of the games in the shadows and feeds off on plays created by others, mainly Ozil.

Villa was scoring fine last season, Pedro was also still good last season - both players scored in the CL final for example. This season Villa wasn't in his best form before the injury, but it's still better to have him not injured, don't you think? Pedro has been crap this season, absolutely. Sanchez did pretty well for his first season, but he also had to miss 5-6 weeks through injury in the beginning of the season. But he scored twice vs Real M for example. I think he will be better next season. Fabregas started the season well scoring and assisting, but he has faded in the last few months. After all, he is not used to competing on all fronts intensively like Barca usually do.

Still, Messi set up many chances for all of his teammates (again, look at his assists - he has more than last season), but they don't finish as well as they should or do not continue the plays as good as they should. It happens. Do you know that Messi has more successful passes in the attacking 1/3 of the field than anyone else?

Also, I thought that the believe is that Xavi and Iniesta make Messi what he is. What happen to that theory? If Xavi and Iniesta make Messi what he is, why don't they make Villa, Pedro, Sanchez and Fabregas better?

Lastly, it's not Messi sits up top at the point of the attack and waits for service to come to him from his teammates. Watch some games before commenting and you will see where Messi spends his time on the field and how he moves.

First of all, it is not Messi who insists on being the principal goalscorer - it's Guardiola's startegy, because he has recognized how best to use Messi's talents and abilities. Second, Eto'o scored almost as many goals as Messi during the 2008/09 season (Guardiola's first season). The problem between him and Guardiola was on a different level and existed almost from the beginning of Pep's appointment. The problem with Ibra was his ego. He started the season at Barca very well but then went through a bad run of form, missing plenty of chances created for him by other players. Naturally then the team went on to rely on their best player - Messi. Now at Milan everyone has to work for Ibra. That is what he wanted at Barca, but it wasn't going to happen. The players at Barca do not work for Messi, they work for the club. Messi does too.

Should I take this also as one of your attempts at giving Messi some credit, calling him "brilliant goalscorer"? And Messi is one of those "inch perfect passers and possession wizards". If Villa, Pedro, Sanchez, Fabregas, Iniesta and Xavi can't score or are not playing through injury, Messi will. Messi scores because he has to. He is the best player and the best scorer. What do you expect, the rest of the players to not pass to him, so he doesn't score more than Ronaldo?

And lastly, how many of Ronaldo's and Messi's goals have been assisted by their respective teammates this season?

I wasn't surprised because of your limited brain ability.

He can't be my favorite player because of Messi. But that doesn't mean I still can't appreciate some of the things Ronaldo does or has to offer to the game. I liked some of the goals he has scored this season from a pure footballing perspective. And that is the difference between you and I - I can appreciate Ronaldo while you can't appreciate Messi.

And btw I really liked his celebration when he scored the winning goal against Barca at Camp Nou to clinch La Liga. I liked the goal too - big-time finish. I liked his goals against Atletico Madrid, amazing.

Let's see how are you going to ignore this stat:

in La Liga, Messi has scored 50 goals from 36 games, while Ronaldo has 45 from 37 games. Comment about the fact that Ronaldo has played one more game than Messi in La Liga?

I'm not ignoring the difference in total games played by Messi and Ronaldo. I just explained to you where it comes from. Ronaldo scored 11 goals from 4 games last season....in La Liga. The extra games Messi has played come from CWC and CdR. And the difference is not 5 games, but rather 4 games....if we have to be exact.

Bottom line: Messi = 72 goals from 58 games, Ronaldo = 59 goals from 54 games. Let me see you give the credit like I did last season to Ronaldo for winning the pichichi.

Again, I do not follow all your posts. I only see the posts you make when we post on the same topic. In the past, when we have discussed Messi and Ronaldo, you haven't once said anything against him when he was disappointing against Barca for example or when he was disappointing at the 2010 World Cup.

And you are going to learn to live with the fact that Messi is the best player. I do not have problem with people seeing things differently than me. I have problem with people who do and say the most ridiculous things to deny giving credit when/where credit is due.

wow another Messi vs CR7?

Let me help you guys with an example oof Rooney vs Persie in EPL, and if you guys can not do the same then ... Ask Norman

RVP v Rooney, the three Robertos

May 8, 2012
By Norman Hubbard
(Archive)
Norman Hubbard is ESPNsoccernet's resident anorak. If you have any questions on football facts, statistics or trivia, please send them to asknorman@hotmail.com and he'll try to answer as many as possible.
I was wondering if you could do an analysis of the goalscoring of Robin van Persie compared with Wayne Rooney? Everyone's been awestruck by Van Persie's goalscoring exploits, but I don't think people realise he only has four more goals than Rooney in the Premier League.Zain H from the USA asked

Robin van Persie's goals have brought 23 league points for Arsenal and, while Wayne Rooney's have earned 11 for Man Utd
Well, Van Persie has 30 goals in 37 Premier League games (36 starts) and Rooney has 26 in 33 (31 starts). In all competitions, Van Persie has 37 in 47 games (44 starts) and Rooney 33 in 42 (40 starts). Van Persie averages a goal every 0.81 games in the league and every 0.78 games in all competitions, Rooney one every 0.78 games, both in the league and all competitions.
If we compare their chance-conversion rates in the Premier League, they are very similar: Van Persie has scored 30 goals from 170 attempts, a rate of 17.6% and Rooney 26 from 152, scoring from 17.1% of his efforts. One measure, however, of a striker's value is to remove the penalties and, in all competitions that leaves Van Persie the clear leader with 34 goals to Rooney's 25.
Another way to gauge their contributions is to look at the number of points a player's goals has earned his side: for instance, remove Van Persie's two goals against Liverpool and Arsenal would have lost 1-0, rather than winning 2-1, but take away his one goal in the 3-0 victory at Wolves and Arsenal would still have claimed three points. By that measure, Van Persie's goals have brought 23 league points for Arsenal and Rooney's just 11 for Manchester United. It is also true that the Dutchman has scored a much higher percentage of his side's league goals (42.3% to 29.5%), all of which suggests he is more important to Arsenal than Rooney is to Manchester United.
If goals away from home are deemed harder, and thus count more, Van Persie has scored 13 to Rooney's nine in the Premier League. However, Rooney has more league goals against top-six opponents - eight to seven - and far more against teams currently in the top half - 15 to RVP's 10 - which may be of more importance to a title-chasing side. Rooney also scored twice against Manchester City in the FA Cup - Van Persie's only goals in the competition were against Aston Villa - but arguably the Dutchman provided more meaningful goals in Europe, striking against Udinese in the play-off to help Arsenal qualify for the competition, then Borussia Dortmund - with his three goals earning three points - and AC Milan.
Van Persie also has 10 Premier League assists to Rooney's four, and thus ranks among the most creative players in the league (only four players have provided more) as well as being the division's top scorer.

========================================================

So number of goals are not telling the whole picture!I hope this helps in either side ?

Messi has two Ozils, it's true. But that doesn't make him half the player Ronaldo is. On the contrary, Messi is like having Ronaldo also being Ozil. Except he scores more than Ronaldo and assists more than Ozil.

Di Maria was injured since december all the way to pretty much last month js. Higuain is not a playmaker he is a goalscorer. Benzema is also the type who takes goals for himself more then he will pass, but hes not the most selfish player like higuain he does try to create sometimes for others

Face it, at madrid there are lots of players who want to score goals themselves. At barca the players all work for messi and pretty much play with 5 ozils who work to get him the ball in the front. Seriously if ronaldo played in barca with that midfield i think he would score even more goals then he does at madrid with the amount of intelligent runs he does. He would also give barca a long range shooter and headerer of the ball against teams who park the bus and they have trouble breaking down. Sure could have used one of those against chelsea

Messi can score 10 goals against betis in the last game of the season for all i care. Ronaldos la liga season would still be better because he showed up when it mattered and won the league. Its like how last season when ronaldo won the pichichi scoring all those meaningless goals at the end when barca had already locked up the league. But now that messi is doing it its amazing...even though he failed when it mattered (chelseax2, madrid league decider)

Have they all played together for either their entire careers or the bulk of it? Has any of them been voted top 3 for Ballon d'Or? Does anybody annoint them the greatest collection of players in history?

Sanchez is a good player, Puyol is still the best defender that Barca has at 34 and Xavi could play his game until he's 40. Cuenca and Tello are just temporary fill-ins due to Villa's injury. Don't act like Messi's had to make due with them for Barca's entire run.

It doesn't mean Messi is more important, it means Barca's players take a back seat while Madrid has players other than Ronaldo who want to score goals themselves.

As for importance, the last count I've seen, Ronaldo had more game winning goals than Messi this season and won the league sealing it by scoring at the Camp Nou. He also scored the two goals in the CL semi-final that was at the time enough to put his team through while Messi was completely invisible against Chelsea and his turnover directly led to Drogba's goal.

Ronaldo has a lot of passes too, and a lot are missed by teammates as well. WTF is your point? This is about the difference between Messi's and Ronaldo's teammates and to what degree they work for them, not about Ronaldo and Messi's passing to teammates.

And why are through balls the only passes that fcking matter? 'Cuz Messi has the most? There are other types of passes in the game. Ronalo has more crossses than Messi, who gives a sh1t?

Of Ronaldo's 112 goals since playing with Ozil, he's only been assisted by him 18 times. You truly are an idiot.

Per your other point, in the past you would've been somewhat right about Ronaldo being in the background more often than not but this season he was very key in the build-ups of Madrid's attacks and made many instrumental initial and mid build up passes which led to goals or opportunities. Everyone in the football world is saying what a team player Ronaldo has become.

I don't claim that they make Messi what he is, but they are extremely important in controlling the midfield and possession which affords Messi the ability to play 75 % of the game in his own half getting chance after chance. They're not going to make Cesc score 50 goals, come on now.

Messi does play deep while they're doing their tika taka and when a space opens up he makes the runs to receive the precision passes. He lingers around the edge of the box as well.

Ibra wrote about Messi talking to Pep about wanting to be the focal point of the attack. I forget the quote exactly but it was something about he wasn't getting as many opportunities as he'd like because of Ibra.

I don't deny that Messi is brilliant at scoring goals, I do dispute the so called brilliance in the manner of which he scores many of them however.

Messi a "possesion wizard?" lmao, he has over 700 turnovers.

You just don't get it. Cesc and Pedro have Barcelona's two highest shot totals after Messi, Benzema alone has more than them combined. Di Maria, a winger has 9 more shots in La Liga than Pedro, a forward in 6 less games. Higuain has more shots than both of them in considerably less time. Again, Madrid has individual players and Barca plays as a team all looking to set up Messi. Ronaldo has to fight for balls and chances with other players all looking to score as often as possible themselves.

Why would that matter? If Ronaldo receives a pass 40 yards from goal and he scores from 35, that would mean he was assisted. It doesn't tell the story of how Barcelona plays for Messi while Madrid's attack is more spread around.

Exactly, he used to be your favorite then you fell in love with Messi. lol, what a b1tch.

I've already explained this, Messi has like 6 or 7 penalties in the last few games in La Liga. Ronaldo should honestly have 50+ as well but he did blow some quite easy chances in the last couple games.

Ronaldo sat out two Champions League games, it's not just the extra competitions Barcelona was in. Messi will have 5 more games at the end of the season. I was just already figuring it in.

Yes, well done to Messi, I honestly didn't think he'd hit all of those penalties. And I thought all the praise was reserved for the collective glory, not individual? It's Ronaldo that won the league, Messi can enjoy his Golden Shoe.

That's your reality, not mine, for me, Ronaldo is the better player who until now, clearly played on an inferior team. We will see in the coming year how Barac performs without Pep and with Madrid having another year playing together.

[But what about a cold night in Wolverhampton? ]

Messi has both attempted and completed more than twice as many passes and CR7 and that says it all right there. Messi has scored more ... assisted more ... and actually passes more accurately and vastly more often than the "me" player that Ronaldo is and always has been. Messi is a true team player who is completely unselfish and works hard to bring his teamates in.

Messi his pass accuracy is actually lower when he is raking up goals, it is one of the lowest in his team. It is higher when he scored not that much goals.

Logic tells me that a player in a team that always has +-70% ball possession will have more passes than the one that plays in a team that has on average 55% ball possession. That will even be more so if the player in 70% happens to be the focal point compared to the other one who seems to be fighting to get passes like any other player in his team. Personally I will be suprised if Ronaldo has more "attempted and completed passes" than Benzema, eventhough I don't w.t.f that stat means.

Anyway this sort of thread was always going to end up being like other past 1000, you know what.

LOL, you won this one!

Why is this even a debate? Messi is going to win a 4th straight, unless a player has an out of this world Euros which is an unknown.

ROTFL. Given CR7 currently has the clear edge with better performances in key matches and more consistent top level play I find it funny when people write such stupid things like above. There is a debate as Messi simply doesn't deserve it and went AWOL in ALL key games this season and will win one trophy at best for the season (his previous trophies are de facto from last season).

And I must add that people keep forgetting that Messi is a forward, whilst Ronaldo is a winger. Barca is focused on getting Messi into goal scoring positions, while RM is more all-rounded.

i just can't help and laugh at someone using the 'pass stat' as proof that Messi is better How many crosses has Messi made this season and Barca has a possession-based short-pass game.

Messi deserves nothing for this season as he simply was not as good as some people pretend he was.

Oh okay.

You've got a point with the biggest games. But nobody has to pretend anything. Breaking all world scoring records, breaking la liga scoring record, leading the champions league in scoring for the fourth straight year.

And let's not pretend Ronaldo has limited shot opportunities because of his position! Lol