Ballon D'Or 2012 (part 2)

This is how I'd rank it.

1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Pirlo
4. Falcao
5. Iniesta
6. Ramos
7. Casillas

 

Neymar was actually included in the shortlist , here the list:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...ominates-23-man-ballon-d'or-shortlist?cc=5901

 

Neymar was last year already in the vote.

 

Nice article:

http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/12/cox-lionel-messi-is-three-world-class-players-in-one/

 

Disagree.

Yes, he is a great dribbler and finisher and the stats support this too. His shot accuracy is among the best center forwards around (and way better as Ronaldo his shot accuracy) and his successful dribbles are higher as others.

But he isn't a marvelous passer. Others like David Silva and even Van Persie created more key passes relative to their total amount of passes as Messi and Silva created more through balls as well. In terms of passing, he isn't among the best.

And as said by me before, Messi often only shows one side in a game. The three-in-one analogy is good (although it really is two-in-one) but that does not mean that both aspects are shown in every game. It is the impression he draws but in games where Messi scores a lot of goals he has often really low pass accuracy or a lowish amount of dribbles.

 

No comeback from that!

 

One can hardly take you seriously when you write things like this.

League 11-12 Assists Throughballs Key Passes (OPTA)

Messi 16 56 92
RvP 9 16 92
Silva 15 18 104

Messi is the best creative passer currently in the world, and among the best passers ever.

 

Would not go that far, Totti is still the most creative, know one sees a pass like Totti

 

You're right that Totti is one of the best creative passers currently, and actually had the second most throughballs in the Europe last season.

Messi pulls every kind of pass there is, constantly, but nobody pulls passes like these:





Through whole teams, even 4 ranks of players, perfectly weighted ground balls.

 

I get tired of this, so for one final time:

Last season in 2011-12 this was the situation:

Messi: 63.8 passes per game, 2.5 key passes per game, 1.5 through-balls per game
Van Persie: 27.2 passes per game, 2.4 key passes per game, 0.4 through-balls per game
Silva: 56.1 passes per game, 2.9 key passes per game, 0.5 through-balls per game

You can also add Ibrahimovic, the one who outscored Messi at Barcelona in his first four months and was subsequently frozen out, if you want:

46.4 passes per game, 2.7 key passes per game, 0.9 through-balls per game

Ibrahimovic is not noted for his delicate passing nor is Van Persie. And rightly so.

David Silva is famed for his passing and that is also reflected in the numbers; a way higher proportion of his passes leaded to an actual chance.

 

Why on earth are you comparing them to whole number of passes? Messi isn't even midfielder per se, he has to cover the attacking side also, and he still had almost three times more througballs (which are the most creative passes, and which give the most 1on1's). If Villa, Pedro, Sanchez, Fabregas and co. would have finished normally the chances Messi created them last season, Messi would have had 50+ assists in all competitions. I lost count how many Messi throughballs Villa blew last season.

 

I can't work-out if either of those are definately offside. Were they both allowed? Is somebody playing Villa onside out of view in the first one. They are good passes, not saying the best ever but very good (but easier to find an offside player than an onside one I guess). Sorry if I'm mistaken though.

 

Villa one was fraction offside, but it's attackers job to be onside, not who gives the pass.

 

Because none of them plays for one and the same team?

That is why I relate it to the total number of passes, on average.

A through-ball is just this:

A pass towards a rushing Dani Alves down the flanks is hence also a through-ball.

Other than that, you ignore the observation that Ibrahimovic and Van Persie had relative to their total amount of passes an almost equal - or better - amount of successful through-balls.

But again, the stats also tell that Messi is by far the best dribbler and one of the most accurate shooters.

 

No Casillas? So far he’s been a bit shaky this this season but he was excellent last season and he had a very good Euros. He saved Madrid’s ass constantly last season.

 

Can you relate it also to the difficulty, to the space given, and the energy and concentration levels when you don't have to do anything else than pass?

Why then I can give you examples of the hardest throughballs there is, from Messi, which you can't equal with examples from any other player? 1 meter pass in the midfield which results in a shot is a key pass. Throughball is easily the most viable statistic to assess creative passing, not the only, but the most viable.

 

The award has been a stupid popularity contest at least since the absolute disgrace of 2010.

 

That's why I said that stats have limitations. Thanks for unintentionally backing my point.

Still, I don't think it is off the mark what I did.

If we make statements as "he is the best shooter", we do not only look at goals but also at how many of his shots were on target.
[like I said, Messi is clearly one of the best shooters in the world - a large proportion of his total attempted shots end into the goal]

If we make statements as "he is the best penalty kick taker", you do not look at the number of PKs shot in, but also at how many he missed (and on which moments he missed) and devise a ratio for this.

Similarly, if we want to claim "he is the best creative passer around" then you do again not solely look at the absolute number but also relate it to the total amount of passes made.

However, if you want to claim that someone is "the best ball-retainer", yes, then you look at absolute numbers.

Absolutely not. Key passes say a lot more than through-balls. Key passes lead to immediate chances, which opposing defenders see as primary objective to prevent while through-balls are also balls to running side backs and this stat becomes inflated when you have an attacking side back on your team (tactics).

It is also not true that Ibrahimovic never made such a pass.

Because I'm not a good gif maker nor am I maintaining an extensive file-system like you do.

 

5 goals.

 

That logic fails already on the grounds that not every pass is supposed to be creative pass. Every shot is supposed to be a goal. every penalty kick is supposed to be a goal.

No even close. Key pass doesn't give you always a "chance", it's a shot on goal no matter how far or how obstructed. Throughball is always through on goal, it gives atleast 5-1 ratio the better chance on average than key pass.

I can tell you now there isn't a pass on ground through whole team, 4 ranks of players, with perfect weight, other than that example. Atleast I've never seen one.

How about perfectly weighted througball, after dribbling multiple players:





You were saying that Messi doesn't show it all in a game, in these examples only he already shows the dribbling and passing.

 

Repeating this twice a day doesn't make it more true.

 

Not every shot is intended as a shot. Or registered as a shot. Not every shot is the same too. Some shots are attempted from a position that strikers can reasonably convert, others are made from a hopeless position with some luck in mind.

Is it really that hard to see my point? If a player sees naturally more of the ball because his team allows him to do so, it is also logical to see him create more in absolute numbers.

That is correct but this problem arises also with the dribbling stat and virtually every other stat.

No, simply no. And I provided the proof. It is often not through on goal. That would also make the stat very arbitrary and not reliable.

Source please.