Though I'm sure many Christians would quibble about some of the points here, I think you're describing a pretty healthy approach to the faith here.
no it doesn't mean that at all. it means we are to sacrifice ourselves, as Jesus did for us, for the better good. that's not laissez faire. if you ask people who are trying to follow Jesus whether or not it's proper behavior to try to browbeat people into "converting", most of them will say, "no". that's not what's called for. but Jesus was clear about what was proper behavior and not proper behavior. he never condoned what the Law and Prophets call "sin". in fact, he said that not one iota of the law would be nullified "until heaven and earth pass away". if you investigate what "until...pass away" means, you will learn that there is a new heaven and a new earth coming at the end of an age. when this will be is unknown, but it will signal God's complete redemption of Creation. the basic precepts of the law can be summed up in this way: Love God; love others as you love yourself. unless you love God, you will never love others as you love yourself. the only person to consistently do that is Jesus, but he and his Father were the perfect example of what love means.
Since homosexuality is a natural occurence (maybe as much as 10% of the human population is homosexual and it occurs in other animal populations as well) doesn't it follow that it would be natural in pre-Christian communities just as it is natural today? So that if nothing is said about it, perhaps the indication is that they know that homosexuals are a part of any community and if they want to reproduce they just have to conform to the societal norms in order to reproduce?
i appreciate that. look, i've got plenty of warts. they are on public display. i feel bad that GC thinks i hate homosexuals. i don't. i'm not sure how to relate to the few i've met. most of the time, we don't have a lot in common. it has nothing to do with my being heterosexual. i had a neighbor for a while who decided that he was gay after a very painful marriage and divorce. he moved away, but i considered him a friend. we both worked in public service. once he got drunk and propositioned me. i knew he was drunk and i wasn't offended. he was struggling with a lot of pain and loneliness. i said something like "you know that's not gonna happen", and he said, "well, you can't fault a guy for trying". later on, he was apologetic. it had no real impact on our friendship for the short time he lived next door after that.
As much as I try to avoid him in the end I side with him on this issue. The reason for that is that your intentions don't matter as much when the results of your actions (or even words) are as harmful as the general christian attitude towards homosexuality is today. You anecdote reflects that you're a decent person but unwilling to change your actions despite the fact that their consequences harm real people. Your actions towards this particular man aren't a problem, but your insistence that the bible is wrong and that homosexuality is a sin have very real consequences when this meme is spread throughout our culture. Today some of those consequences include very real suicides, but even without going that far we know there are significant negative consequences to this belief. The problem with religion is that the principles to which you (religious people in general) subscribe are immutable. That means that when presented with real-world negative consequences to your ideas you rationalize why those negative consequences are ok (or at least a part of the picture) rather than re-evaluating your principles and trying to figure if they are wrong. Of course, in the long-term those principles do get re-evaluated by sets (or sub-sets) of religious people and religion gets dragged out of its ignorance by reality (usually). Now, I don't expect you or any religious person to re-evaluate your principles based on reality, let alone based on this post, but that's because that's how the religion meme (and many other memes that are ideological and comforting) works - it exchanges future rewards and answers for a sense of community, certainty and belonging now but it demands that it be preserved as loyally as possible. It's not immutable but it is certainly very hard to change it even in the face of reality. It results in real harm in the real world but allows people to accept this because of made-up promises. Christianity is neither unique nor unusual as far as such memes go. It's too bad that it requires such significant investments of time and resources to overcome them.
Why would you feel bad? You clearly have a disdain. And you can't point out where the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. In fact, there are more indications of the bible saying stuff against certain heterosexual sex practices... Your verse is woefully misinterpreted. You have a disgust for homosexual behavior... and it's based on fallacious grounds. People don't "decide" that they are gay. It's not something you turn on or off like a light switch. He either was gay, and was hiding it by marrying someone of the opposite sex.. or bisexual. You know what the sad part is? Many people feel pressured to marry someone of the opposite sex because of what elements in society say. You better marry and procreate or you're going straight to hell. And I'm quite serious about this. Your message is insidious as it is damaging. Yes, I guess using your personal example all homosexuals "struggle with a lot of pain and loneliness". By bringing up such thing you are inevitably making broad claims. Why did you even bother writing that paragraph?
This is where you completely fail. Those verses have been mistranslated over the years, and don't mean what you think they do. And this folks is what happens when you have such one dimensional thinking. Do you follow everything in the bible? If not, don't tell me that homosexuality is wrong or condemned.
It's not condemned in the bible. you simply don't understand the context of the very verses you rely on! And this is what irritates me. There are more verses condemning practices in heterosexual sex then homosexuality. There are more verses condemning day to day things you're not supposed to do! Do you wear clothes with more than one material? Do you eat shell fish? Do you eat a particular food on a particular day? Stop the cherry picking hypocrisy. You speak out against love, and to me that's wrong! You speak out against two human beings who are in love with each other... You can try to sugarcoat it all you want. You're wrong. You can't even cite anything to back yourself up besides some statement "oh it's in that chapter". You know people will come back at you and pick it apart, telling you the context of the verse is not based on homosexuality but something else. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah had NOTHING to do with consensual homosexuality. It was about rape and power. Absolutely NOTHING to do with consensual relations. And i conclude this post with this: The gloves are off. I will pick apart everything you say.
I probably agree with you, but when you utterly fail to make the argument, much less demonstrate it, you do your cause disservice.
I had two other posts that discussed it (before and after that post). And where did I utterly fail to make the argument? I've already made the argument several times. This is getting ridiculous. Get your mind off of me for a minute. Imagine it was someone else saying the same thing. I doubt you'd have a problem with it. I've already made my case. How on earth did I fail? For asking for evidence on where the bible condemns consensual homosexual relations? You got it twisted. I do my cause a favor by defending it with such passion and evidence, when I see others don't on this forum.
i have no idea where you get these ideas. it's pretty apparent that you are defending something that means a lot to you. when you say that homosexuality isn't condemned in the bible, that's really the minority view. there are some people who think that since Jesus didn't address it subject, the OT strictures don't mean anything anymore, but that simply flies in the face of what he did say. as to my friend Dan who decided he was homosexual... you have no idea what happened to him. you never had any kind of conversation with him and so you're making a statement from complete ignorance. he got married to a girl he was physically attracted to. she was bi-polar, went thru shock treatment. he would have stayed married to her, but she decided that it would be better if they split up. after several years of not being able to make a heterosexual relationship work, he met a bi-sexual man and ultimately decided he was gay. that's what he told me. it took him quite a while to come to grips with that whole thing. he was a great guy. i felt bad for him that his marriage didn't work. i have no idea whether he was always homosexual or bi-sexual and neither do you. all i know is what he told me.
I'm not sure I've ever seen you back up a post on any thread, despite your histrionic insistence that you have. Rarely have I seen words more wasted. A significant number of posters here generally agree with your positions...perhaps the majority. It's that you choose the worst arguments in favor of your positions that makes us think that you're either a dolt or a minor. You've told us you're a grad student of some color...I hope you're lying.
But it's not. Many new elements in the Christian religion are already saying that your perception and interpretation is not the case. You guys want me to post proof? FINE. http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian This is what the bible says about sexuality: "DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21 If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately. DEUTERONOMY 22:22 If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. MARK 10:1-12 Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced. LEVITICUS 18:19 The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed. MARK 12:18-27 If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir. DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12 If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her." ----- Do you follow that? That website also goes through specific verses that are commonly cited for claiming that homosexuality is against the bible. The bible doesn't condemn consensual homosexual relations. Period. People don't DECIDE to be homosexual. I've already gone through this for you. He either was, and covered it up by getting married, or was bisexual. It's not something you change like a light switch. My statement is not from complete ignorance. I don't even have to meet him to make these statements. People don't decide they are gay or straight or bisexual. They either are or aren't. It seems to me you don't fully grasp human sexuality. Actually I'll say with 100% certainty that sexuality is not something you decide. It's inherent. This isn't disputable.
Bullocks. I've backed up my posts several times, with links and sources regarding this matter. The worst arguments in favor of my positions? What are you arguing from? Thin air? Seems like it. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't hit the "submit reply" button. Save yourself the embarrassment. I've backed up my arguments several times. If you have a grudge against me, drop it. It's time to move on. I've seen you show up at random times to take shots at me, and it's getting old. I know where I'm arguing from. I've cited evidence. Have you any evidence against me? And why on earth would I lie about my education? You know character assassination shows how little character you have. If you can't engage in argument, don't come in at a random time to take a swipe at someone you know little about.
Evidence going through bible verses regarding homosexuality: http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian GENESIS 19:1-14 THE STORY OF SODOM "But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing. It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, asserting their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning the vanquished. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening." PASSAGE 3 LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13 "Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)" PASSAGE 4 ROMANS 1:26-27 "Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors -- including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) -- all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure." Side Note: I'm pretty sure we don't engage in these sexual practices, hence why this passage is not exactly clear as to what was being condemned. PASSAGES 5 AND 6 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 AND 1 TIMOTHY 1:10 So what do these two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point? Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes." As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means. In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time. ---- Anymore?
You're more irritating. Go away troll. You're accustomed to nothing but making outlandish assumptions about a discussion you haven't even followed. Edit: Aw he left me a negative rep. I feel so special. He thinks I'm irrelevant, even though I'm tackling the issues head on...
But we're the pushy ones... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h7ekCD6uE4"]YouTube - Activists Assaulted At Hawaii State Capitol (4/29/2010)[/ame]
Goes to show how destructive this god-virus is...once it takes over your mind, you act completely insane.
I never understood this whole thing. If religion comes up I see no reason not to say anything. It always amazes me how religious people can talk about God openly all they want and everyone else is expected to keep silent out of respect. I drive by this church every day that has a sign out on the road. They change the message all the time to something that I always find repulsive but I don't demand they take it down or complain about it. I simply get a sick feeling in my stomach for about half a second and move on with my life. I'm not sure why these people are getting so butt hurt over atheist billboards. I personally wouldn't waste my time putting them up but these boycotts of buses due to signs is amazing. It shows how childish people can be and how entitled religious people feel. But I have to say, the atheists that insist on trying to ruin Christmas do bother me. Putting up anti-theist messages next to a manger display is just bad taste. The timing of all these atheistic messages bothers me too. I celebrate Christmas and Easter and I love Gospel music and all of that. It's simply cultural. People of all faiths celebrate Christmas in America. So the atheists that want to change Christmas to suit their idea of a secular holiday bother me. The way I look at it is that it's like Superbowl Sunday. Does everyone that celebrates Superbowl Sunday identify as a football fan? No, it's just cultural. I wish the secularist activists would realize that. There's no need to go around trying to poop on Christmas. It should stay the same with or without religion. I don't want to see my culture changed to suit some weirdos reinterpretation of a national holiday.
Agreed. Somewhere in mainstream 'Merica, there's a man in a singlewide crapping his pants because of the bolded and muttering your last sentence- except it's your ideas he's talking about.