We had a lot of this talk about whether or not Freddy was cap-tied. The opinion that came out of that debate seemed to be as follows: Playing for a senior national team in an official competition absolutely, without question, cap-ties a player. Playing for a senior national team in a friendly does not cap-tie a player. This is unambiguous for players who have never played for a youth national team in an official competition. HOWEVER... now we bring in the status of a player who has appeared in an official competition for a youth national team. The youth cap provisionally cap-ties the player, but he can apply to switch federations. In this case, a senior "A" match - friendlies included! - does permanently cap-tie the player, according to the text of the rule. There is no contradiction here, either in letter or in spirit. One can see accepting a senior call-up as confirmation of a player's allegiance to one country as previously established by youth caps, rather than the initial establishment of ties to one program.
Well it wouldn't be the first time. Do you really think that Nildeson de Mello would have played for you guys if Brazil had wanted him?
Those were the old rules... I believe there has been a change since. I remember old rules discussed the significance of "A" friendlies combined with youth tournaments. Under the current rules that I have read, there is no significance granted to friendlies at all. Official competition meams a FIFA tournament, World Cup Qualifying, or an official regional tournament (Gold Cup, UEFA Championship, African Nation tournament, Copa America, etc).
Completely different cases. Alvarez has Salvadoran blood, as he was born to Salvadoran parents. And as a result, he has always had two options as to who he could play with on the international stage. De Mello didn't. If Alvarez truely saw himself as a Salvadoran, then there would never have been anything to think about in terms of playing for us or the US. Yes, our federation took way to long to contact him, but when they did, he held out cause he knows that he would rather play with the US. That was even until early last week! Now that he knows his chances are limited with them, he wants to come to us cause we are his only other option. I'd even say he's doing it just to spite the US for not giving him a chance. In his heart, he clearly would rather be playing for them, and i wouldn't even put it past him to stop all that he is doing right now to become a Salvadoran citizen if the US was to call him up tomorrow. Like i said, i don't hold it against him as he was born there. But i just don't like the fact that he's even considering playing for us when deep down he knows would rather play for them. No one wants a players on there national team who doesn't want to be there and give his all for the country. He either wants to play for them or for us, and Alvarez has made his feelings clear on this many times. For him it's the US first, El Salvador second, and that's why i would prefer he doesn't play for us. A similar case to Alvarez is that of Chivas USA player Gerson Mayen. He was born in the US to Salvadoran parents, and has played junior level internationals with US national team. But he, unlike Alvarez, has made it clear from day one, that he would rather play for El Salvador than the US. And as a Salvadoran, that i something you expect from your players. It's something that you respect as a supporter because you know that he truely does want to represent the national team. And again, this isn't the case with Alvarez. As for De Mello. Well he was a classic case of a player moving to a country to play football, getting an offer to become naturalized and then moving onto play for that countries national team. Obviously if he would have had a chance to represent Brazil, then no doubt that he would have gone there first. And again, i wouldn't have blamed him as he was born there. But he wasn't Salvadoran by birth, he was naturalized as Salvadoran. Do you see how that differs to the Alvarez situation? Also, as is the case with our current naturalized national team player Williams Reyes, De Mello was quick to jump at the opportunity to play for El Salvador. Again, something that as a supporter i respect and something that Alvarez failed to do. Ultimately, it's about having love for the country that you represent. Reyes has it, De Mello had it, Alvarez doesn't. Simple as that.
Again, so does that mean that by your interpretations of the rules, a player who has never participated in any junior international tournaments or "Official competitions" could theoretically play hundreds of international friendlies and still not be cap-tied to a country?
By the rules, it sounds like the answer to this question is yes. However I don't find it a plausible scenario. What chance is there that a player would be called upon to play in "hundreds of international friendlies" and never play in an official competition for that same country? I'd say none. I know, you said "theoretically" but I think it would be more profitable if we keep our focus on real-world situations.
It's not "my interpretation." I am certain that's what it means. FIFA removed "A-friendlies" from the rules. They no longer mean anything. A player could play in several friendlies (hundreds if you want) and not be captied. Martin Vasquez played in 3 friendlies for Mexico before switching the United States. Only official competitions (meaning non friendlies) matter for the purposes of being captied. That's just how it is.
But that to me, that just proves that this interpertation of the rule has it's flaws. No doubt that a player would never play so many friendly games without playing in an official competition. But for the simple fact that according to this interpretation, a player could again theoretically do so, to me shows that it can't possibly be right. Of course, i could always be wrong, and this interpretation could very well be the way FIFA sees it. But it just seems to me, to be to big of a "loophole" that players could exploit to avoid being cap-tied to a certain country. Again, with this interpretation, one could also say that a player could participate in an international friendly with team "A" one week, and play another friendly international with team "B" the following week without facing and sanctions. Again, to me, this is to big of a flaw for FIFA to have in it's usually air tight rulebook.
He wouldn't face sanctions, but he would be forever captied to team "B" under this scenario. You are allowed a ONE TIME switch. In order to play in a friendly, you have to be registered by the federation you are going to represent. He would have had to have excercised his one time switch option to suit up for team "B".
the last time i saw sanctions invoked was for the 1990 wcq process, because mexico used an overage player in a youth tourney... harsh penalty, although i think i'd take some egegious to get the same penalty imposed now to anyone...or the victim would be a smaller nation with littlke chance of actually advancing
"Friendlies" was never in the rule. An "A" international doesn't have to be an official competition. The difference between Alvarez and Adu on one hand, and Vasquez on the other, is that Vasquez never played for a Mexican youth national team in official competition. If anything, at the time the rules were more restrictive, as back then playing in any official competition at youth level permanently cap-tied a player. Ten years ago, there would have been absolutely no question the moment Alvarez stepped onto the field in the U-20 qualifying tournament. Under the more recent rule, Alvarez and Adu were already provisionally cap-tied to the United States by appearing in FIFA youth tournaments. They were already registered at FIFA as US players. At that point, Adu would have irrevocably committed to us by either turning 21 or playing for the senior national team in any match; in order to play for Ghana at all he would have had to file the paperwork for a change of association. And apparently Alvarez was absolutely cap-tied anyway because he wasn't actually a Salvadoran citizen (only eligible for citizenship) when he played for us at youth level. However, take a third player who has NEVER been part of a US youth national team - Jonathan Bornstein. He was not cap-tied to the United States at all until he appeared in the Gold Cup and could still have played for Mexico at any time. Furthermore, unlike Alvarez's case, he could even potentially have played for Israel, even though he was not an Israeli citizen when he first played for us. There was simply no official competition at any level that registered him as a US player.
There one plus with Alvarez playing with El Salvador....maybe could help brings some fans back to MLS and especially if he plays well.
I know all about the differences in their backgrounds. But you said that you don't want to see someone playing for El Salvador only because someone else doesn't want them. Brazil didn't want De Mello so he settled for ES. Now Alvarez is looking to do the same thing because the USA doesn't want him (at least for now).
Okay, let me put it this way. De Mello was offered a opportunity to play for us, and he jumped at the chance. There were no second thoughts. Alvarez was asked, and he didn't want to until he saw that he would have a hard time getting a chance with the US. Now i don't know about you, but to me, there is clearly a big difference between the two. One wanted to play for us because he wanted to represent the country, the other wants to play for us because he has no other option. I'm sure any fan, not just me, would rather have the player that wants to be there over the latter. Or am i wrong?
You are just wrong. You don't think that De Mello wouldn't have preferred to play for Brazil? And only agreed to play for El Salvador as he had no more chance of playing for Brazil than I do? Come on. The only difference is that while Alvarez may have more contacts and attachments to the US than Salvador (like De Mello did with Brazil), at least he has some contacts with El Salvador other than taking a job there.
I do think it's a little weird that a Brazilian with no youth caps can end up playing anywhere he wants (like Senna or Deco). Subject to residency rules of each nation of course. But get one cap when you're 17 (and have no idea where your career/life is headed), and all of a sudden the rules are completely different. It's a race against the clock to fit thru the necessary hoops before you're 21, etc. The rules are the rules, I know. It seems like FIFA could be a..............little more flexible.
I've already said that had De Mello recieved an offer from Brazil than there is no doubt that he would have gone there over us. But you don't seem to understand, or just don't want to understand the point that i am trying to make. De Mellos case is not the same as Alvarez', as for one, he wasn't Salvadoran and two, he wasn't wanted by another federation. Even so, there was no hesitation on his part when he was asked to represent El Salvador. And that's not the case with Alvarez. Alvarez was asked if he wanted to play on numouros occasions and he always had said he was not interested, that is until he finally realised that the US wasn't going to give him a chance anytime soon. Again, he agreed to play for us simply because he has no other option, not because he wants to. Would you want a player like that to represent your national team?
If when he plays for the national team he does so with pride, and fights for the uniform, then why not? If he's better than the current options and is eligible, it would be silly not to use him. I understand the point you're making as many Americans made the same point about Neven Subotic recently. In the history of the USMNT we've have many players in situations you've suggested (Earnie Stewart, Thomas Dooley, etc.) and they've become heros.
Neven Subotic seems to use US , to help get more of resume to hire to Europe clubs. Neven care less for US. Thomas Dooley, he basically German, even do, he lives Southern California. Rergis was really with US to play World Cup. He care less for US.
The initial iteration of the provision in the cap-tie rules that allowed players a one-time change of nationality before their 21st birthday was written so that the letter of the rules made a senior friendly appearance cap-tie a player permanently. However, public statements about the interpretation of that rule consistently indicated that it was intended for only competitive matches to make a cap-tie permanent, and my understanding is that FIFA has also edited the rule accordingly in their most recent statutes. (Millions of electrons were wasted arguing about whether Freddy Adu really was cap-tied to the U.S. under this writing of the rule, and I'm sure you can still find those threads on BigSoccer. Look for folks like me and I think superdave taking the position that the letter of the rules made Freddy cap-tied, and me taking the position that if FIFA meant for the rule to refer to official competition, then they should modify it accordingly.) Consequently, friendlies never cap-tie a player. I don't have a link handy, but FIFA makes their statutes available online at fifa.com. That's correct. There are a couple of examples in the U.S. player pool: Vasquez (for Mexico) and Cunningham (for Jamaica) appeared in friendlies for other nations prior to being cap-tied to the U.S. Obviously, it would be highly improbable for a player to participate in hundreds of international friendlies without every appearing in an official competition match.
Assuming you mean Regis, unless you have a quote or a link somewhere, I'm calling shenanigans on this one... Go watch the USA-Mexico match from WC 2002 - when Donovan tapped in Eddie Lewis' perfect cross to stick the dagger in El Tri, who was the first player from the US subs warming up to reach Landon, wearing the biggest you-know-what-eating grin on his face? David Regis. The one healthy field player who didn't even play in the entire World Cup, but never sulked or pouted about it. He loved wearing the crest. Cut the man some slack.
Fair enough, but as not to re-write the same thing over again, please read below Again, i'm not saying that you are wrong, again, i might very well be the one that just doesn't get it. But right now, it just doesn't make sence to me. So why don't when just agree to disagree? How's that sound?
Alvarez is not going to be able to switch allegiances. It isn't going to happen. There is no wiggle room in this. He's passed his 21st B-day and has already represented the U.S. Case closed four double A.
If you disagree with me, how do you explain Jeff Cunningham and Martin Vasquez, both of whom suited up for the U.S. after playing in friendlies for another nation?