Arturo Alvarez To Play For El Salvador

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Altidore_Adu_Fan, Jan 16, 2009.

  1. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't matter...

    Rossi became provisionally tied to Italy when he represented Italy at a UEFA youth tournament. He then became permanently cap-tied to Italy when he turned 21 despite not playing in a FIFA event (only a UEFA youth tournament) and not ever playing for the Italian senior team.

    Official youth tournaments for regions (CONMEBOL, UEFA, CONCACAF, CAF, AFC) all count towards provisionally cap tying you... this means you have until you are 21 to use a one-time switch. Alvarez's 21st birthday has passed and he can no longer switch.

    Sorry El Salvador, Alvarez is ours.

    Case closed
     
  2. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's been traded twice. That's an STD?
     
  3. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    BShredder is right.

    Unless FIFA changes its rules or makes an exception for Alvarez, he's cap-tied to the US through his participation in the qualifiers for the U20 WC in 2005 and the fact that he's now over 21 and too old to switch national teams.
     
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Sure. :)

    Arturo's been good enough to get talent in return, hence the trades. Teams also find him replaceable, hence why he gets traded in the first place.

    This case may now be closed anyway. If he appeared for us in a qualifying tournament for a U20WC, then he's cap-tied to us. I didn't realize this. Too bad Sallies.
     
  5. DestroyerDaMarc

    Dec 8, 2005
    New York
    Club:
    Newcastle Jets
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stupid Transfer Deal, yes he is an STD
     
  6. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    I'd actually like to see Fifa make an exemption here, and I think Alvarez should be allowed to represent El Salvador at the senior level.

    I know what I "think" isn't all that important here, as obviously this is a Fifa decision to make or to enforce the rule as written.

    would this be similar to the Chris Armas case in any way?

    (I guess not, since according to wiki: "Armas played for Puerto Rico in the 1993 Shell Caribbean Cup. The competition was not then recognised by FIFA and so his five matches were classed as friendlies.")

    so clearly the difference between friendlies for Armas and the actual sanctioned youth competition that Alvarez appeared in make these cases different. but I'd still have no problem with the idea of Fifa making an exception here and allowing Alvarez to switch after his 21st birthday. were those 13 minutes (in a U20 Concacaf qualifier) the only appearance that cap-tied him to the US?
     
  7. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only way it would be similar would be if somehow they didn't know at the time that those games were actual qualifiers for the FIFA U-20 tournament. The situation with Armas was that he played for Puerto Rico in Caribbean Cup matches, but it wasn't officially declared a Gold Cup qualifying event when it was played. After the fact, when organizing the Gold Cup, CONCACAF used the Caribbean Cup results to determine participants. That's the official story, anyway.
     
  8. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    I believe he played in all three qualifying matches in 2005.

    Edited to add the following:

    Alvarez started the final qualifier vs. Costa Rica, going 69 minutes.

    Lineups:
    USA: 18-Andrew Kartunen; 2-Hunter Freeman, 3-Marvell Wynne (6-Greg Dalby, 52), 4-Patrick Phelan, 5-Patrick Ianni (Capt.), 7-Sacha Kljestan, 9-Chad Barrett (11-Freddy Adu, 63), 10-Arturo Alvarez (15-Eddie Gaven, 69), 14-Charlie Davies, 16-Tim Ward, 17-Danny Szetela.
    Subs not used: 1-Quentin Westberg, 8-Benny Feilhaber, 12-Will John, 13-Jacob Peterson.
    Head Coach: Sigi Schmid.

    http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_142680.html

    I can't seem to find a box score for the 6-1 win over Trinidad they opened qualifying with. I'll keep looking.
     
  9. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    I found the box score to the US U20 qualifier over Trinidad in 05 and I was mistaken and Alvarez did NOT play in it.

    Lineups:
    USA: 1-Quentin Westberg; 2-Hunter Freeman, 3-Marvell Wynne (17-Danny Szetela, 38), 4-Patrick Phelan, 5-Patrick Ianni (Capt.; 16-Tim Ward, 29); 6-Greg Dalby, 12-Will John, 15-Eddie Gaven (7-Sacha Kljestan, 57), 8-Benny
    Feilhaber; 11-Freddy Adu, 9-Chad Barrett.

    Subs not used: 10-Arturo Alvarez, 13-Jacob Peterson, 14-Charlie Davies, 18-Andrew Kartunen.
    Head Coach: Sigi Schmid.

    http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_141518.html

    So, the two games that cap-tie him are the 13-minute sub appearance vs. Panama and the 69-minute start against Costa Rica.
     
  10. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    good info. thanks.

    be interesting to see if Fifa does anything and how strong of a case El Salvador might be able to present.

    He's gone basically 4 years without getting a senior cap for the US (since his youth appearances), so I would think Fifa might look favorably on his case, and allow an exemption.

    but I can also see them sticking to the letter of the law and not wanting to open up exemptions (for less that 90 mins or play or whatever).
     
  11. DestroyerDaMarc

    Dec 8, 2005
    New York
    Club:
    Newcastle Jets
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they didn't do it with Subotic and Germany I guarentee the same will be set with Arturo here.
     
  12. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If it were just him, I wouldn't really care, but how do you make an exception for Alvarez and then enforce the rule against anyone else?
     
  13. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, there is enough wiggle room to make a legal distinction between the cases as Alvarez was elgible for El Salvador at the time he played for the US, while Subotic was not for Germany. Not saying FIFA will make such a ruling, but they could limit its scope with that sort of opinion.
     
  14. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    who knows? as i said it will be interesting to see if Fifa makes any kind of exemption here. it's always tough to know what Fifa will do.

    maybe they take into account the fact that he hasn't ever made a senior team appearance in the 4 years since his U20 qualifying appearances (and he's been available and healthy).

    the rules clearly state he's tied to the US, but these are just Fifa regulations, and maybe El Salvador will find a way to get Fifa to re-interpret or adjust their regulations. to me, it seems that cap-tying appearances for youth teams (especially before one's 21st b-day) seem like a standard that should perhaps be re-examined on the whole. but I don't work for Fifa.

    if a player can make up his mind to switch associations (as long as he does it before his 21st b-day), then what is the point at all in terms of having cap-tying youth appearances (prior to a player's 21st b-day)? clearly there's some bit of "uncertainty" that Fifa allows for that is associated with the period prior to the 21st birthday of a player.
     
  15. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Agree 100 percent.

    For the record, I have no qualms with Alvarez playing for El Salvador. He gave the US a chance and they keep passing him by.

    So if he has a chance to play elsewhere, I don't begrudge him that.

    However, I just don't see FIFA making an exception for Alvarez and El Salvador simply because of the precedent it would make.

    That said, I'd like to see FIFA change its rules to that YNT games, at least those played below the Olympic level, don't cap-tie a player.

    I don't know if it would pass as I imagine the African and South American countries that see their youth internationals sold off to European teams at a young age don't want to see their talent leaving for other national teams. And, I suspect the Africans and South Americans could form a loud enough block - and get enough sympathizers from other countries - to keep such a measure from passing.
     
  16. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok guys, I have to make two points on this. I have read the FIFA statute many times over when debating the Subotic/Germany eligibility issue.

    1) There is no "wiggle room." He played in an very official competition and had until his 21st birthday to switch. He's over 21 now and didn't switch. It's as clear as clear can be.

    2) There are no exceptions. The the FIFA rules are clear and the is no appeals court or tribunal to plead your case out for these matters. There are no exceptions to any part of the rule. This includes no exceptions for hardship, duress, the fact you don't like your country anymore, can't get senior caps, don't like your coach, or that you only played a few minutes at a youth level. You need to make up your mind by the time you are 21 and in FIFA's opinion, that is old enough. It's a letter of the law rule with no grey area and no exceptions.. period. So it's pointless to say you hope FIFA gives an exception to Alvarez because there are no exceptions provided for in the rules. If FIFA decided to ignore their rules here, it would open Pandora's Box and international football would be drastically changed on a major scale. It's simply not going to happen.

    Personally, I like the rules as they are. You can change your mind until you turn 21 provided you can only switch to a country you were eligible for when first playing youth international soccer. I think 21 is old enough to make a permanent decision... and the fact that you can only switch to a country you were eligible for when you first play internationally prevents powerful countries from luring in talented players from smaller countries. FIFA understands that many kids have duel citizenship issues and that you don't want to lock someone in at a very young age. But at some point a permanent decision has to be made and you don't want to "nation shop" because they can spoil the fun of national team soccer in the first place.
     
  17. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    completely fair. but Alvarez isn't getting NT soccer in the US. he can in El Salvador (theoretically, if somehow the regulations changed from Fifa).

    yes, at some point a permanent decision has to be made for each player, but in Alvarez's case what's the difference between requiring him to make that switch before his 21st or his 25th birthday? if he doesn't see senior NT games from age 21-24 with the nation that gave him a youth cap, should that youth cap really tie him to one nation?

    the Fifa regs say yes, but perhaps those regulations as a whole need to be looked at again.

    fair enough, but there is uniqueness to this case, (as potentially would not be the case with African and South American players, since those players would likely get caps with their senior NT after making youth appearances).

    it wouldn't be that difficult (imo, well maybe it kinda would be) for Fifa to set a regulation that if a player doesn't earn a senior cap by his 23rd or 24th birthdays or whatever, that his youth/provisional caps no longer tie him to that first country for which he appeared.

    it's my assumption that Alvarez didn't try to switch by his 21st b-day likely because he was hoping to remain in the US plans and wanted to get NT caps here (he's been to camps and such, has he not?). those senior caps didn't happen (although I guess they could at some point in the near future), but it seems like a shame that some U20 caps are what's tied him here permanently (per the current rules from Fifa).

    of course I'm just thinking out loud here, and there likely are a lot of good reasons Fifa does what it does, but in this particular case, it doesn't make sense in my opinion that Alvarez can not opt for El Salvador since the US has not opted for Alvarez up to this point (beyond a pair of U20 qualifiers).
     
  18. DestroyerDaMarc

    Dec 8, 2005
    New York
    Club:
    Newcastle Jets
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I also agree FIFA is fair with the older players too. Especially the ones from Brazil or Argentina who come from nowhere and once they go overseas become a huge hit. An example here is Culio from Argentina; a great player but one that sees he might not get the call-up for the Maradona's. So he might have the chance once Romania gives him citizenship to play for the Romies, great call in my book.
     
  19. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think FIFA should consider raising the cutoff age, maybe to 23 instead of 21. The younger age works fine for the no-brainer players who are good enough to get senior caps by or around their 21st birthday, but it does a disservice to someone like Alvarez who is good enough to be around the fringe of the U.S. team but not good enough to break in at a young age. A cutoff at 23 would offer some accord with the Olympics, as well, it would allow players passed over for that competition an opportunity to re-assess their national team choice.
     
  20. DestroyerDaMarc

    Dec 8, 2005
    New York
    Club:
    Newcastle Jets
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No 21 is fine because at 18 if I had duel citizenship and the opportunity to play with either one or two nations I'd seriously think about the national team idea.

    An example here is that as tab pointed out earlier being on a U-21 for Brazil means I might be called up later on. No it doesn't mean that; it means they are interested but I need to develope better or be on the cover of World Soccer Magazine.

    A great example is Mauro Zarate an Argentinian international who was signed to a Qater club a few years ago. Zarate went for the money and in honesty it hurt his chances with the senior national team. Imagine though had he not been capped-tied at the U-20 level and had the option to play with Qater. He would be competing with average international quality and banking. No Riquelme or Messi's. No Tevez or Cruz. Just Zarate and his 40 Arabian nights.
     
  21. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Think about all the Brazilians, Argentines, or other powerful countries that would have young players (who may have played a few times for the youth teams) flee to weaker footballing countries once they realize that they can't break into the senior teams in their home land.

    The object is to really limit the transition of players on the international scale because it goes against the integrity/purpose of national team football. While at the same time the rules give the players a reasonable opportunity to make a decision early in their career if they are a multi-national. Alvarez had a reasonable chance to switch... the same amount of time given to everyone else. He had the opprortunity see which country his heart was with and also to evaluate his own ability and compare it with the player pools of both the USA and El Salvador.

    21 is a good age. National team football should not be about going where you can play the most, it should be about representing the country where your heart lies. At 21 years old, players are adults and at that point and they should know which country their heart lies with. People are missing that key point. Also, with the exception of Olympic football which is only every 4 years, 21 is the last year of most major youth tournaments. Once youth national team tournaments are over, players with duel-citizenship options should make up their mind.

    If his heart is with El Salvador, I am sorry he can't follow his dream. But he had his chance and it's his own fault.
     
  22. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    but those players would not have been eligible for other nations when they got their youth caps for Brazil or Argentina, would they?
     
  23. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Through ancestors, you'd be surprised at the number of South Americans that can be eligible for other countries. Most likely countries like Germany, Italy, Portugal, and Spain.
     
  24. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    NT football should be about representing a nation that you are able to represent. Alvarez has his options limited, he's tied to the US.

    but it appears the US doesn't really want him (it's been 4 years without any senior cap since his YNT appearances).

    yes, people should know which country their heart lies with by 21, but look at all of the players that have joined the USMNT (Dooley, Regis, etc) well after their 21st b-day (and yes, I realize those cases are different, as I don't think they had any YNT caps for other nations, but the point remains that it seems silly to have a YNT cap of a player under 21 really tie that player to any nation, if other opportunities pop up later in a player's career.

    I don't see how Fifa can truly mean to say that Alvarez is tied to the USMNT, if he's never appeared for the senior team here.

    yes, it's Alvarez's "fault" under the current rules, but in my opinion, those rules could be a bit more understanding, and better regulations could be applied to allow players to play senior level NT football for a nation for which they were eligible (when they had previously made YNT appearances).
     
  25. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    are those "weaker footballing nations" to which South American player could flee? (if these players can't or don't get full NT caps, why should they be prevented from going to some other nation, for which they are/WERE eligible, to earn full NT caps there?)

    the point remains that Alvarez's case is unique, in that he's gone 4 years (between his last YNT cap) and has been unable to get a full NT cap here.

    i can understand the rules and regulations as Fifa has stated them, but I do think there's other concerns/issues in this case that might actually allow for some "wiggle room."

    why must a player make up his mind by 21? if he's not getting senior caps, what's the problem with letting a player go to some other country (for which he is eligible via ancestors or marriage or whatever) up until his 25th (or even later) birthday. i'm not sure why YNT caps tie a player to a single country once that player turns 21? it seems like a complete lack of NT appearances should create (or re-introduce) some options that multi-national players could/should have.

    but then again, Fifa could very well stick to the letter of the law, and Alvarez won't be permitted to play for El Salvador, and he'd have to continue to work to try to earn a NT cap for the US, the nation he is tied to.
     

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