Are foreign players briefed about US law and customs when brought in?

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by MightyMouse, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

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    A legitimate question here, I often have wondered this, are foreign players briefed or warned about US law and customs? For instance, say in X latin country the drinking age is 18, can have open containers in public, maybe they are not as strict on the drinking and driving? Are these players addressed to US law or are they simply expected to know?

    Also have wondered, are players told about the good and bad parts of the cities? Or are players simply expected to have a smart head on their shoulders? Coming to the US can be a culture shock for many foreigners as certain manners and laws are probably far more strict in the US than they could have ever imagined. How certain bars and clubs have to close at specific times. Etc.

    I would imagine each team has someone who can sit a player down and give them a run down on the do's and don'ts. I ask this because of this recent incident in Portland involving a Colombian player Valencia who is 20 years old.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/timbers/index.ssf/2012/07/portland_timbers_jose_valencia.html

    A young foreign national, who probably has little to no understanding of the English language, and probably knows less of specific US laws. I certainly wouldn't know 100% how to prepare everyone who comes into the US but I would imagine some people would give them a heads up?

    Has Henry been warned of certain areas of NJ/NY? Tim Cahill? Was Beckham warned about areas of LA? I know to many it is OBVIOUS and most of these guys have already traveled the world and probably knew these cities well in advance of ever having signed on. Just curious what each team's protocol is here or is there a league mandate?


  2. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    This is an interesting topic. The book Soccernomics had a section on how soccer clubs in Europe did a very poor job of helping players dealing with their moves. Guys would be moving from Africa to England and not getting any help from the clubs in dealing with the transition.

    I know other American sports leagues put in a lot of effort into making sure new players transition smoothly. I wonder if MLS teams do that yet?
  3. Orange Sounder

    Orange Sounder Member

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    Seeing as the MLS has a high amount of foreign players compared to other American sports leagues, I hope the answer is yes.
  4. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

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    And yet another example.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/new-england-revolution-s-saer-sene-arrested

    What responsibility does each team have with its foreign players? They should think of it as an investment to keep them OUT of trouble. Some of these guys are coming from countries where insurance simply does not exist OR it does exist but the consequences of not having it doesn't get you into a multitude of trouble like it does in the US. These things need to be explained to players of other countries, they just don't get it, they have no idea how harsh the law can be in certain areas in the US.


  5. holiday

    holiday Member

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    are we suggesting sene couldn't have known about driver's licenses? :)
  6. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

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    That may be stretching it, sure, but still a lot of other guys are coming from countries not quite as "law abiding" as the US is.
  7. holiday

    holiday Member

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    sene was born in paris and played a few years in germany.
    and even if you're unfamiliar with the situation, you might figure out about stopping when a cop is flashing his lights following you.
    more interesting are certain aspects of manners or political correctness.
    i have no idea what montero did to get himself in hot water for a possible sexual offense, but that's an area where i can see culture can be tricky, at least up to a point.
    the classic case of misconnect of course didn't happen here, but to suarez in post-riots england.
  8. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

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    Yeah, raping someone is politically incorrect. :rolleyes:
  9. holiday

    holiday Member

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    see, i knew somebody would answer like that.
    but instead of making such an obvious comment, could you tell me for a fact that montero raped somebody?
    and if he did, could you explain to me how come he's still here playing for seattle?
    heck, could you even tell me that you are sure, speaking in general, what is rape and what isn't?
    and let me be very clear: you are the one who seems to want to mention rape. i had no interest in suggesting anything about it.
  10. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

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    Rape allegations can be thrown around far too easily in the US. Once it happens you have several court dates and lawyer fees to deal with no doubt and regardless of what the outcome it will forever tarnish one's image. Living in Latin American countries, hell, even in some European countries men are allowed to be far more aggressive in their sexual advances. That does not mean it equates to rape, but certainly harassment, still they are not the same thing. Sexual harassment charges in the US are a dime a dozen especially in the work place. Be it a legitimate case or simply a girl having a bad day once it lands in the court room nobody is having a good day but the lawyers. What happened to Montero in Seattle sounds like a crazy woman looking for a payday. This is simply based on the testimony and written accounts I have seen about his case. Sure there will always be someone saying, "I swear this happened!" but in this particular case I don't buy it.
  11. holiday

    holiday Member

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    and anyway i said cultural differences in such cases can be tricky up to a point.
    but big soccer is the place where the wise guys keep coming out of the woodwork. :sneaky:
  12. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

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    Are you joking? False rape claims make up 3%-8% of all rapes reported to police, probably closer to the low end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#False_reporting (Yes, it's wikipedia, but the stats are cited from reputable sources.) Reports of stolen property are twice as likely to be false reports, but no one ever complains about those lying theft victims.

    When you also take into account the fact that 54% of all rapes are NEVER REPORTED, and that only 3 rapists in 100 ever spend even one day in jail, this myth of women crying rape is just fucking stupid. Women very rarely falsely report rape (or accurately report rape, for that matter) because the process is humiliating. When a woman reports a rape to the police, every single decision she made up to that point, relevant or not, is questioned, by the police, by prosecutors, by defense attorneys, by judges and juries, by the press (her name is usually kept private, but the press will still print details about the victim and her choices). Her wardrobe, her choice to drink, her choice to speak to a man at a bar, her choice to go over to a man's house/apartment, how many sex partners she's had in the past, as if any of those choices made it okay for the rapist to rape her. Women know that this is waiting for them if they report a rape. They know that only 3% of rapists end up in jail. So...where, exactly, is the incentive to falsely report a rape to the police? You go through a humiliating processes, few people will believe you, and you have a 3% chance of success.

    I don't know anything about the case with Montero. I'm not saying he's a rapist. I'm sorry if this seems off topic. But this myth of women making false rape claims all over the place needs to stop.
    BarcaLover, bunge and CCSUltra repped this.
  13. holiday

    holiday Member

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    how do you know only 3% of rapists end up in jail? are you saying there are people that we know are rapists (97% of such people!) that walk free?
    in montero's case no charges were filed. would it be fair to include him in the class of people who got away with rape, so we can get that eye-popping 'statistic?' and if he ends up in that category, how good is that statistic? and again i'd ask you: are you perfectly sure what is rape and what isn't? i'm from the school that if a girl says 'stop,' you stop. not just for a minute before trying again, but for good. but some questions that someone would be asked if reporting a rape, are not irrelevant from a legal standpoint.
    nothing is worse than personal violence. i'm just not sure it helps to overpaint an issue. and again, i never mentioned rape when i talked about cultural nuances.
  14. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

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    Sorry for not including the reference for the 3% stat! My bad... http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates RAINN gets their numbers from the Justice Department and the FBI. I don't know specific methodology, but I know a lot of women who don't feel comfortable filing a police report will still be willing to talk to rape crisis counselors or therapists and are willing to report about their rape in surveys and studies, which feel safer, more anonymous, and less judgmental than cops and lawyers. The way the statistic is reported, for every 100 women who get raped, only 3% see their rapist arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to jail time. Of the 97% who don't see justice, it's possible that one man is actually responsible for more than one of those women's rapes, so maybe the number of rapists who go free is somewhat less than 97%. I should have phrased things a little different in my initial post, but the general idea of most rapists walking free still applies, and I don't think it was grossly overstated.

    As far as Montero's case goes, while it is statistically more likely that he raped a woman and got away with it, there is a chance the woman was lying. I'm not going to throw either Montero or this woman under the bus because I just don't know. That 3-8% of women who do lie about rape make me just about as angry as actual rapists. They give ammunition to those who doubt all rape claims. They make it harder for real victims to get justice. Women who file false rape reports to the police deserve to be prosecuted for the real, horrible harm they do. I want to make that clear. Women who lie about being raped have done a terrible thing.

    I am quite sure what rape is. Rape is having sex with someone who has not willingly consented. Sex should be an act between two adults (or more if that's your thing) who want to have sex with each other. Not one person who wants to have sex and one person terrified for their life if they don't. Not one person who wants to and one who doesn't and fights back. Not one person who wants to have sex and one who is so drunk they have no idea what's going on. If one person has made it clear they don't want to have sex, in any way, or is unable to express consent, and the other person continues with sex, it's rape.

    I don't feel that these statistics overpaint the issue at all. They're facts. Very few women falsely report rape. Fact. Most rapists never go to jail. Fact. OMG all men are evil rapists!!!1!11! That would be overpainting the issue. I'm not making that claim, at all. Most men are good, decent, responsible people. And some women suck. But the way we talk about rape in this country is terrible and does real harm to real victims.
    CCSUltra repped this.
  15. holiday

    holiday Member

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    tbh, that doesn't sound like the most reliable way of establishing the truth either.
    i don't know anything about his case, but that might be unfair to him.
    either he did, or he didn't. and if he didn't, there's no fairness in suggesting that 'statistically he might have.' same applies to all cases.
    the problem is that 'willing consent' is a lot harder to pin down. the cases you describe are mostly clear (there may be still a few gray areas even in them). but in most cases the contours may be much less sharp than you have sketched.
  16. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

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    Well, then, how would you conduct a better study other than an actual survey of rape victims, whether they reported to police or not, and if they did, the outcome of that report? Do you have any other, contradictory statistics or studies? Do you have anything other than the assumption that I'm wrong?

    I have repeatedly stated that I don't know if Montero is a rapist or not and that I'm not going to assume he's a terrible person. What more do you want from me? Jeez...
    It's actually not that hard. For everyone (male or female), everywhere, forever: If you don't know for sure the person you are about to have sex with wants to have sex with you, don't have sex. Check if it's okay with them before continuing. Don't threaten, don't pester, don't ply with alcohol or drugs. Sex is WAY better if both parties want it, so make sure the other party actually wants it and isn't just doing it to get it over with and get you to leave them alone. That may not lead to a rape conviction, but it's a shitty thing to do to someone.
  17. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios BigSoccer Supporter

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    So.. talk about driving without licences became a talk about rapists... this forum is awesome!!
  18. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

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    Yeah, yeah, I know, I derailed the thread. :( I just wanted to point out that MightyMouse's claim that bitches be makin' shit up is actually a bunch of made up shit. Kinda spiraled from there....

    I do think it would be to a team's benefit to clue foreign players (and, hell, domestic players, since some American men still don't get it...or don't care to get it, not sure) in to stuff like this. If the situation with Montero really was a cultural misunderstanding, a lot of bad press could've been prevented if someone from Sounders had sat him down and told him to back off the ladies if they aren't actually enjoying his attention.
  19. holiday

    holiday Member

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    i don't have to present an alternative method to comment on data that has been presented. i'm just leaving it at that.
    the issue i raised, fwiw, is pretty simple. an actual survey doesn't tell me whether we're talking about actual rapes. it only tells me what the respondent and the interviewer say, it seems in this case without verification. statistically, montero might come under a degree of suspicion. but statistically, so do respondents to surveys and those who arrange the data.
    the notion that 97% of rape acts go unpunished would be nothing short of a national emergency for law enforcement, imo. mind you, i realize that we're a long way from solving issues of sexual relations. i just, fwiw, don't find this particular 97% believable, meaningful, or enlightening.
    i suggest that such extreme claims are best left out of a balanced discussion, and leave it at that.
  20. holiday

    holiday Member

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    do we know it was a case such as you describe, not backing off the ladies if they aren't actually enjoying his attention? why do you assume that? in general, one of the issues in rape cases is that up to a certain point the attention was enjoyable, and the issue becomes whether and at what point can you expect the guy to switch off. you gave some advice to the guys. you also might give the ladies the advice not to start fooling around if you don't mean it. iow, don't assume you can change your mind later on.
  21. zojakownith

    zojakownith Member

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    someone needs to bring up hitler and nazi germany, who wants to volunteer?
  22. MightyMouse

    MightyMouse BigSoccer Supporter

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    Look, throw your statistics in anybody's face, get all hot and bothered, it matters not to me. I also am of the school where if the girl says no she means it. I also have seen some pretty crazy girls do pretty sketchy stuff to get get guys in trouble. I by no means am making rape seem petty in any way, if someone rapes I hope they get thrown in jail and raped themselves, but reality is there are many cases where a girl was drunk and simply accused someone out of blurry memory be it correct or not. There are office cases of women accusing their bosses, or co-workers, of sexual harassment or near rape and the book gets thrown at these guys no matter what. That is all I am saying, once it gets started it is a long road back to clearing one's name foreigner or not, I just feel worse for the foreigners is all. Some of these guys come from very sexually expressive countries (example Brazil) and then come to the US thinking the women here are on the same level of promiscuity. It can be a very rude awakening for some of these guys and a possible conflict with the law. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
  23. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

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    Accurate data isn't extreme. Data that refutes your argument isn't extreme. You can't label data as extreme simply because it points out an extreme situation.

    Ignoring accurate data is extreme.

    If the data is statistically significant, it's good data. Research driven data is typically peer reviewed and verified as statistically significant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance

    Did you make excuses for Jerry Sandusky as well?
    phedre44 and CCSUltra repped this.
  24. holiday

    holiday Member

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    you actually wrote a post about about not being extreme and closed it with this?
  25. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

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    Go ahead and do the math and figure out if the data is statistically significant or not. Your opinion is extreme.

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