Another pro/rel thread yayz!

The only way it works is this:

MLS expands to 30 teams, all owned in line with the single-entity model, all in major league markets. Then the bottom 10 are "relegated" to an MLS II in one fell swoop. Thereafter, you could have pro/rel between the two.

Obviously this is fantasy, though.

I don't think they will expand past 20...and they shouldn't the talent pool will be diluted.

Again, I asked you a couple thousand posts ago, what is the problem you are trying to solve? Some suggested we would see the creation of more professional teams (and with more professional teams, better player development) if we lowered the barriers to entry into the closed structure of MLS (specifically the high expansion fee and BofG vote) in favor of open pro/rel. Even if that's correct and more teams were formed, I think any greater quantity of teams created in the lower divisions would be at the direct cost of MLS creating new, well supported teams and in new 18,000+ stadiums for the reasons I've already outlined and won't rehash here.

You are now suggesting a different problem that needs fixing -- it would make the end of season more exciting. Again, given the playoff system MLS has, is that even a problem? Or, more accurately, perhaps MLS has chosen to fix the problem a better way?

I accept it's nearly pointless now though, because someone will simply come up with another way it could be done without any compelling reason why it should be done. Helpful solutions in search of a problem.

Boiled down, I suggest what you really believe -- many of you anyway -- is that professional soccer should be organized here just as it is in the vast majority of the world, that is, with open promotion and relegation, because that's the way it's done. Full stop. You're not really interested in any examination or justification as to whether the structure has any real benefit over what we now have. It's conforming for the sake of conforming because it's "proper".

It's the most miserable reason to change I can think of.

How is it misguided ? Playoffs are a league value/competition structure, like single table. It has nothing to do with pro/rel. It has nothing to do with teams moving in and out of a league (here in the states). The question isn't whether or not playoffs can exist in a pro/rel setup. We already know they can and nobody (in their right mind) is denying that. The only thing they have in common is that they're a process to determine an outcome. That's it.

Pro/rel isn't part of single entity. If you can give me an example from somewhere in the world where it is ....

I see your time away hasn't made you any smarter. Just what do you think has been happening the last decade ?

Also, if it takes having a team obliterated by overspending, relegation, and a fire-sale liquidation administration type raping .... then I'll take "harder" every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It isn't harder to have a multimillionaire buy a team here. Not even close.

Oh Lord. Who let this guy back in ?

Let's see, you want to involve the team with lowest attendance (because that is what we should be using to determine who needs to be relegated) and argue that a shit team that nobody watched to begin with will somehow help create something that people will get excited about .... in which, that thing is the possibility of being relegated ? The NASL team is 99% assured to have a worse attendance than the MLS club with the lowest attendance that finished last, a worse stadium and facilities, worse financial backing, and an even worse overall popularity level.

The odds are ... you still suck at this.

It appears all the red/yellow cards were lost in the transition to the new site.

Where's the dislike button

It's an ANALOGY. And to use your own words, pro/rel is a value/competition structure. Your own words prove my point.

I have no idea why you're talking about if playoffs can exist in a pro/rel setup. I think you're changing the topic to avoid being wrong.You have in no way given any substance to the argument that pro/rel is incompatible with single entity. Zero. And that's why these arguments continue.

What points do you have to show that the two are incompatible?

Who cares if it exists yet? We're talking about the United States and MLS. I don't think anyone except you are talking about pro/rel without all teams being part of the single entity structure. If anyone else is I'd be surprised.

I would like to see pro/rel between USL and NASL, so I am 1. (yes I know the feud and the chance of a snowball in hell stuff).

But we're talking about MLS, so that's a bit different. I don't think anyone expects a team in a single entity MLS to drop out of single entity into the USL or NASL.

I guess the problem could be with the union if the dropped team has to cut salary, other than that they would still be a MLS LLC owned team (players) and operator owned team (the non-player stuff).

The biggest issue would be the promoted team; would they have to sell the team to MLS LLC?

Yes, pro/rel will not work with single entity (in the USA it will probably won't work even with out single entity).

I am talking full pyramid pro/rel.

Bunge you are talking pro/rel only with in MLS, a bit like Japan (with out the 3rd level National league).

Not so much.

League format and competition structure are not one in the same. You're trying to analogize two things that don't fit into the end point you're trying to say that they do.

Pro/rel is a league structure .... single table placing is the competition structure. Single entity is the league structure .... playoffs are the competition structure.

The attempt, was to try and get you to see that analogizing playoffs to pro/rel is incorrect. I'm not changing any topic to avoid being wrong.

The reason these arguments continue is because people like you and WhiteStar (et al) continue to come in and spout of crap like this. The whole time you're doing this you're completely ignoring the fact that you're not putting forth anything yourself. Myself and others have gone over the substance, reasoning, and facts as to why pro/rel and single entity wouldn't work ad nauseam.

Exactly what points have you presented at all in support of your opinion, let alone any with actual substance ? All you've done is pop in and say "no, those are opinions and aren't anything real .... show me something." You don't see an issue with it working. The burden of proof is on you .... so what are you presenting ?

Uh, wow. You really .... REALLY haven't been paying attention. You're one of the few (if not the only one) talking about a pro/rel MLS, single entity type structure. The vast majority of the pro/rel mob has been talking about a completely open US soccer pyramid.

However, I'd say the fact that NO LEAGUE anywhere across the world (where pro/rel is already accepted practice) is structured as single entity with pro/rel says something. Japan is still open. It is just like the EPL with the only difference being that there are two levels to the separate entity (J-League 1,2) rather than one (Premiership) ... the entire pyramid is still open.

Pro/rel is compatible with single entity. It's false to say those two are incompatible. I would venture to guess it's even easier to have pro/rel within one single entity because single entity would remove some of the things that make teams fail.

Salary budgets and contracts owned by a single entity mean when a team drops to a lower division the team doesn't have to suffer a major failure like they can in non-single entity leagues.

You may not like pro/rel. You may think it couldn't succeed in the US. But that doesn't mean pro/rel and single entity are incompatible.

I do believe pro/rel is very difficult with single entity if you're dropping a team from single entity into the non-single entity lower division and vice versa. That still doesn't mean pro/rel and single entity are incompatible.

I'm beginning to believe you either don't know what "single entity" means.

I guess the definition of "pro/rel" matters here, and for that I feel it more useful to use the Tinfoil Teddy definition, and the definition used by the Big Soccer Countries. A full pyramid, from Manchester United to XI Guys from Billy's Pub FC. If the Billy's Pub Select XI keep winning their games, they go to the Club World Cup. No barriers for entry.

Because pro/rel does have some benefits. I believe they're outweighed by detriments, but there are benefits. And this "hybrid pro/rel" system that's been proposed, while minimizing the detriments, achieves none of the benefits.

There's also the small issue of asking 20 D1 teams to share evenly with 20 D2 teams with lower revenues and worse players

I don't disagree with this, but I do think as Achowat suggests this isn't what most have in mind when they argue for pro/rel. Case in point, remember several years ago Phil Gartside floated the idea of a two tiered Premier League (with Rangers and Celtic), linked between the two divisions by pro/rel, which was otherwise closed. He later revised it to allow limited pro/rel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/06/premier-league-two-division-gartside

As the BBC noted, "Gartside's plan, which will need the approval of 14 out of 20 Premier League chairmen, would offer more financial stability to teams in the lower half of the Premier League, who would then be able to plan for the future with greater certainty."

In effect, it would have been very similar to what you suggest.

This didn't strike me as such a bad idea, but it was widely deemed to be an attack on the sanctity of promotion and relegation. In the context of this discussion, it isn't what is being floated by pro/rel advocates either.

Is this based on some assumption that FIFA cares? Because, y'know, they don't.

Then why do it? With the Magic gone, what's the point?

You and I both know that the MLS structure isn't scalable to 60 teams. The 60th best team in the country is never, never going to be anywhere near on equal footing with the 1st. For example, 60th team in England? Yeovil Town. Spain? CD Toledo. Italy? Something called Foligno Calcio

Sorry, it is never going to make sense for the Big Boys in MLS-1 with their average attendences in the tens of thousands to share with Billings Town AFC

Fair enough, I'll bite. How would it improve MLS?

I think the 30-32 team range is more or less the upper limit for a professional sports league in the US and Canada. Past a certain point, you're starting to scrounge for first-tier markets. But we're probably at least a decade or two away from that point.