OK, so let's address the hypothetical situation where the coach is standing in the technical area calling out tactical instructions which, ITOOR, are irresponsible because they are intended primarily to mislead the opponents. At this moment in time, the ball has been "positioned" by the foot of one player in such a way that even with slow-motion video replay, it would be equally plausible to say the ball is in play or not in play. (Remember, there is no rule against positioning the ball with the foot, nor any requirement that the ball leave the corner arc when kicked and put into play, so it may be impossible to tell.) The coach apparently thinks it is in play but wants the opponents to believe it is not. What do you do here? Smile knowingly and watch? Stop play? Proceed down the Ask-Tell-Remove sequence with the coach at the next convenient stoppage? - QC
AEK....Not going to get too deep, but Jim Allen has stated in the past that a coach's involvement in deceiving the opponent is misconduct and must be dealt with. So, you were there and I wasn't, but did Herb understand that the coach was impacting the play with his deception? I'm sorry, but I think I'm on pretty solid ground in stopping play for misconduct off the field. And I will continue to do it.
The ball hasn't been merely "positioned", its been played. The "positioning" occurred when it was setin the corner arc. It was played when touched and moved. What do you do? NOTHING. Lesson learned by opposing coach, at least at competitive levels of play.
Well, I can only attest as to what Silva told us, and I can tell you that definitively as I was in the room. The reason I bring Silva up is that the EXACT same scenario occurred to one of the refs at the US Club Nationals and the matter was discussed at length at the clinic which followed. Given the timing of the question posed to Allen, the fact that an ILLINOIS ref brought up the same exact scenario in this thread, and the fact that the ref in question in this thread and a ref at the seminar BOTH were hell bent on pigeon holing the conduct into the trickery bag leads me to believe that the original question to ask a soccer referee came from the incident at said tournament. In any event, my initial gut reaction also was to deal with the coach.......but at the next stoppage. Silva asked me why, and then put a kabosh on my answer. I guess his answer was premised on the fact that this was a very competitive level of play. I also guess that if I'm doing U11 rec level, I can find something wrong with the restart and/or view it as misconduct (with a dropped ball restart).
Th reason Allen never answered what you perceived to be the original question is because the original question was premised on a parent coming over to the referee tent and questioning whether a "fake corner" was "TRICKERY". Since the question was about trickery (at a corner kick), Allen's answer quite logically related to trickery.
I'm on the way over. I have had a coach go halfway to the corner arc to instruct his players in a loud voice in a competitive match. I'm sorry, Herb, if you are reading, this is just wrong on a whole host of levels. Again, if the corner kick is taken with deception from the sidelines I'm stopping play. If I am lucky enough to stop play before the corner is taken, I'm reprimanding the coach, ruining the surprise, and restarting with the corner. If the deception happens on the field, and the ball is put in play properly, then play on. Not all stuff from the sideline is noise, especially at a competitive level where there isn't as much noise. If a coach speaks, then they tend to listen at higher levels because in my experience they aren't speaking all the time.
I've been reading this and was waiting for someone to ask or explain it. How would you deal with the coach in the scenario where he interferes? What would you say? What would the restart be? I know I want to learn this because if I saw it tomorrow I wouldn't know what to do other than let it go. I'm sure there are others like me who haven't had this and would very much like to learn how to deal with this so we get it right when it does happen. Edit: Rufus answered some of it above that I didn't see when I posted this. But I would still like a layout of how to deal with this please.
To make sure we go over 5 So we agree the coach being involved is wrong. Fair enough (and I agree), so when exactly do you stop it? coach yells out "susie, take the corner". This is fair and allowed as tactical infomration to his team. I think we can agree on this. So, you have nothing to stop it for YET. Susie runs over and does: 1) repositions the ball for a CK. But wait, your AR says it was already in play, now what? 2) Dribbles away, but AR says ball was never put in play, now what? 3) Dribbles away and AR says ball was in play? All three are possible, and the coach involvement as being illegal can't really be decided until you see what happens next. There, that should get us over 5
I've had the "corner trick play" any number of times. Never seen it work. Did get it to fool me once and I gave an IFK for the defenders for a second touch. "Hey, coach, them's the risks you take. Sometimes, you're so good, you fool the ref." I did have the "trickery" done once in the Men's Ethnic League game. Had to use all of my powers of used-car-salemanship to convice the players that the card and the IFK in from inside the penalty area was right, since I was clearly the only person in the stadium that had a clue what I was calling... "Seriously guys, just relax, we'll start with the indirect kick from here on my whistle. Trust me, this is the right call. I'll take all the time you want or need to explain after the match, but this is how we're restarting right now, so get ready...."
I'm with you in principle, but invariably what you'll get from the coach is "I wanted susie to take the corner, not my fault that mary lou took it...so how can you discipline me for that?" or something along those lines.
Ya know, I was all set to send a response as to how to deal w/ the coach, re-reading law 5 etc. and I started thinking all those things as well. If it is not trickery if a player does it, then why is it trickery if a coach calls for another player to take the kick, something that is perfectly allowable and happens all the time especially at younger ages, most times when it is not a designed "trick" play?
At it's core, IMHO, the problem in handling the trick corner is that the team taking the trick corner really wants to play Shcrodinger's cat: they don't want to decide whether the ball is already in play until after they see what the defense does. (If a defnder comes in, she was just positioning the ball; if no defender comes in, then the kick was already taken.) This becomes the core Fingerspitzengefühl test for referees. The ball cannot be cosnidered in play from a disguised touch that has been used to reposition the ball the rest of the game. And once the "trick" is underway, if the AR has determined the ball is in play, it's too late for the kicker to change her mind. (Saw this happen with an alert AR -- a defender was alert and charged, and the kicker tried to casually reposition to the ball. Suprisingly, there was not much complaint when the AR flagged for the second touch.) Fingerspitzengefühl is going to apply to coach involvement as well -- and the threshold is going to be much different at a rec u10 game than at an academy game.
1) If my AR saw it as in play, and Susie does not use her hands, let them take the "corner" that everyone is expecting. If she does use her hands AND my AR puts up his flag OR the defenders had reacted, we are going with handling and I'm talking to the coach. If she uses her hands but the AR does not put up the flag AND the defenders have not reacted, then more power to her. Take the corner. 2) Well, this is the easiest one I think. As she dribbles, my ARs flag should come up. At this point, the two of us are going to have a little discussion. If the ball was legally placed inside the corner arc when Susie started dribbling, then we have a double touch. If it wasn't, then we are retaking the CK because of the improper restart. 3) Play on. I may be having a discussion with the coach depending. As several other posters have noted, this is also age and experience dependent.
Re-thinking... Due to the lack of specific prohibition in the LOTG concerning of this action by the players , the decision to allow play to continue is more certain. We are however given broader interpretation regarding "responsible behavior" of team officials, age and skill level being a big part of that.
I've seen the 'fake' corner kick a number of times, never above U-14. My favorite was at a tournament, a day which will live in my memory as the day that Brandi Chastain flipped off her shirt. No, I was at a youth tournament instead of the Rose Bowl, with my daughter and son. We were the referees for the entire day at this one field, several miles from the main tournament site. Ugh. Green team sets up the fake corner kick deal but the defenders realize what they're doing! The closest defender comes over and just dribbles the ball away up field. I'm the AR on that corner and the attacker who was supposed to come over to dribble the ball towards goal comes over and gives me the the arms spread, WTF? expression. I just smiled and we played on. Is it trickery if it doesn't work?
Yeah, the bigger kids can't be bothered with this sort of folderol. (Cf. Giggs & Rooney against Chelsea...)
When this happened to me, my AR just stood there with his flag down, looking slightly curious. He told me later he knew it was a fake corner and that I shouldn't have stopped play. Gee, thanks. Sometimes, I wish there were a flag signal for "nothing wrong, I saw that; keep playing" that was different from "I'm not sure what just happened". - QC
PREGAME! But seriously, I often tell my ARs that if I am looking over at them with a "what just happened?!" look on my face, either put a flag up or give me a discreet hand wave for "nothing there". I usually do this when I am on the line as well, I'll give a little head shake or put my free hand at about waist high and give a little wave. Communication is key and the best way to communicate is to be prepared for the situations you may encounter.
I've been notified by a coach before a match that his team may perform the corner trick, but they never actually did it. Other that that, I've never seen it done.
If the player who originally was lined up to take the kick did not put the ball into play, the second player has committed a second touch, and the restart is an IFK for the defending team. If the coach instructed the team to do this, he has done nothing wrong; the second player has made a mistake. I have many times given instruction to my teams to change kickers, never with the intent to do anything but take a normal kick. If the player who originally lined up to take the kick did put the ball into play, the players have done nothing wrong. Play would only be stopped if, in the opinion of the referee, the coach did something to deceive the defending team, and the referee decides to give him some sort of warning to behave responsibly. Play would be restarted with a dropped ball.
In my experience, I have had this type of corner pulled on me more than a few times (and usually around the u13-u12 range). And coach involvement has been there nearly every single time, and the coaches would be considered HORRIBLE poker players. Not too hard to discern. Usually happens when they decide very very late that someone else is to take the corner and that person is 25 yards from the arc.