Analysing the MLS SuperDraft: The GA debate

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by ENB Sports, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    most of those GA's that were cut will be resigned for less (Tchani already has). Unfortunately the MLS rules on both GA and rosters/salaries lead to this. If you are talented and get a GA contract but are only 'okay' and not great then once you lose GA your salary is not commensurate with your contribution and you must be cut. There is ZERO room under the MLS salary cap for overpaying for performance (as a matter of fact without underpaying for performance a team cannot succeed).

    i am not sad for any GA player who for 2, 3 or 4 years basically stole money from a team and then gets cut and has to resign for 50K. he basically got to walk away with a few hundred thousand dollars for nothing.
     
    22SteveD repped this.
  2. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    Oh I understand all of that; it was my point to a small degree. That situation is perfectly acceptable in my mind because:
    1) The player that came out early had the financial incentive
    2) The player will be moved to their appropriate salary level on contract two; as any player would
    3) The risk is low for the league and zero for a specific team because the program is subsidized and the player does not hit the budget.
    So, specifically on the question on whether GA players are hurt by the program, I say no way. :)
     
  3. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    yeah. sorry, i quoted your post to "add on" and agree with you sort of thing ... not refute.
     
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  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    WTF? How did they "steal money from a team" more than any other under-performing player (Rafa Marquez, I'm looking at you)?
     
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  5. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    Furthermore, it doesn't come from the team. Frankly only a small amount (if any) even comes from the league.
     
  6. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    i didn't say they were stealing more or less than Rafa. but there have been plenty of GAs who have been "stealing money" in the history of the programme ... not trying to make some sort of absolute moral judgement or anything just using a common sports expression/shorthand for when somebody gets paid a lot and performs very little (or not at all in some GA cases).
     
  7. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Then you might want to be more specific about your criticism going forward. Because Generation Adidas contracts are paid for by Adidas and the teams aren't paying anything from my understanding.
     
  8. ENB Sports

    ENB Sports Member

    Feb 5, 2007
    I bet I'm the first ever to say the Rafa Marquez vs Corben Bone debate :)


    For another thread "What is the true value of a DP?" but I must admit I'm a fair weather fan in terms of going to games and I'll pay for a ticket to see the Red Bulls play with Marquez in the lineup although I think Mattocks might be the only GA of recent years I'll pay to see. (maybe Zakuani)​






     
  9. looknohands

    looknohands Member+

    Apr 23, 2009
    Louisville, KY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This argument is actually losing relevance with each passing year; the league has apparently made the conscientious decision (or else Adidas has) to scale back on the number of contracts offered and the money involved. MLS has made clear their desire to utilize Academy teams as the preferred method of player development (take note of the financial benefits for teams that eventually sell Homegrown players, compared to other contract types.) Truth be told, I don't see the current GA setup lasting past the next bargaining agreement. What I'd like to see to the league/Adidas do would be to have each team have one GA "signing" available to use each year; the signing would be for a player under the age of 24 and the cost of the contract would be split evenly between the club/league and Adidas--with foreign players eligible for the contracts. There wouldn't be a limit on how many GA players a team could have, only the fact that they can sign only one player to a GA deal each year.
     
  10. Autogolazo

    Autogolazo BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 19, 2000
    Bombay Beach, CA
    Exactly--the league is moving toward finding ways to acquire younger international players--in effect, broadening the scope of a GA-like system designed to get these players into the league and, perhaps eventually, sold on. We've already seen this in the Youth DP rules, we've seen young internationals sprinkled into the combines, and this internationalization of MLS youth is actually written down as part of the 2022 "plan".

    While Adidas may like the fact that their money is going to kids in college from a marketing angle, that same six-figure guaranteed multi-year salary could probably be more wisely spent on a 19-20-21-year-old South American player who could then come to MLS on a loan-to-buy option.

    Juninho came to the Galaxy when he had just turned 21. Joao Plata showed a hell of a lot for a 19-year-old. Find more like that, and put them into the same system that brings us Darren Mattocks. It should all be one program. With only one year guaranteed, but the salary upped to $200K+. And then what you won't get with this new Generation Adidas is multi-year GA busts like Michael Tetteh, or youth DP busts like Fabian Castillo. Short term "nice to meet you" $200K for the college guys, loan-to-buy contracts for the young foreigners.
     
  11. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Wait a minute - the league signed a player to a GenAd contract only to admit its failure in raising his level of performance to the originally expected financial level and subsequently releases the said player and that's considered acceptable?

    Ay, gewalt!

    Would any other league have the same opinion - would the Houston Texans say, "Well, we did draft David Carr with the first pick, he sucked for four years until we cut him ... we'd make the same mistake with him again!"

    This assumes that Adidas would only pay for these kids and no one else or likewise not funnel money into the league via any other means.

    I would make no such assumptions.
     
  12. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    What? It is happening now where players including GA get signed to renegotiated contracts. That is the whole purpose of the re- entry draft containing a second round. Happens in MLS, NBA, MLB, and even NFL. Not everyone gets a raise on their second deal. Not sure why this shocks you.
     
  13. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    What shocks me is that this is considered success.

    David Carr, by the NFL standards, was one of the biggest busts in its history.
     
  14. 22SteveD

    22SteveD Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 1, 2011
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does anyone have a link that shows Adidas is covering these "deals". I always understood it was like a sponsorship by first Nike then Adidas to put there name on it but MLS was actually picking up most of the cost.

    Included in that salary amount ( also in all HG signings to) is a guaranteed scholarships to continue their college education should their professional career not pan out. So it's not direct compensation to their pocket although it appears in their salary amount.

    Some light was shed on these deals when Corey Hertzog was let go by ny red bulls, I saw commentary that with all the washouts that the contract was reduced from 4 year deals to 3 year with team option for 4th year.
    Remember all GA deals are different so player can not be released until contract has expired, but option can be declined like Hertzog's was. This is also why they do not count against the team salary cap.
     
  15. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    Success? The fact that a handful of GA prospects end up with pay cuts? How many top round picks in the NFL get recycled and recycled and recycled? It just shows that scouting and drafting is not a science. But that is true in every sport regardless of GA or not; coming out early or not; or where they are drafted.
     
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  16. MUTINYFAN

    MUTINYFAN Member

    Apr 18, 1999
    Orlando
    You think Fabian Castillo is a bust? it seemed like he was much improved this year.
     
  17. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Right but that's not the gist of the GenAd vs. the NCAA Seniors argument.

    In fact, roughly the same debate was a major point of contention in the NBA, whose own "Gen Ad" types - aka High Schoolers - were often showing to be huge disappointments despite being given hugely lucrative contracts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees#Early_years

    Subsequently, the NBA adopted a new "prep to pro" policy, that currently requires a year grace period because the busts heavily outnumbered the hits.
     
  18. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    But I think you would have to show that more GA by percentage go bust so to speak then normal players in the league that came through college. That would require way too much research for me, but my gut says that it is not even close to the case given the amount of drafted players that are out of the league in a few years. It certainly is not at the same level as the NBA's issues. It appears to be a vast minority. :) Now do all of them end up as super stars . . . no. But by way of anecdotal evidence, I believe every Gen Ad that Houston has had in there 7 years is not only in the league but now starting somewhere.
     
  19. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Columbus
    The difference is the NBA is the dominate league if MLS wants to become one of the top leagues in the world it can’t model itself after the NBA or the NFL. The NFL and to a lesser extent the NBA can force kids to go to college because there aren’t a lot of other options. There is also little worry about whether a college really prepares athletes for the way the game is going to be played at the next level. It isn’t like the Lakers or Bulls are worried about beating any teams in international competition, the best team in the NBA is the best professional team in the world and no one disputes that at this point. The NBA doesn’t have to earn its prestige year over year it’s innate.

    That doesn’t mean MLS needs to replicate the European prep to pro setup ad hoc either. The NHL does have the luxury of being the destination league; even so it does have international competition. If the NHL had no option for the best prospects to play professionally you might see more kids test out European leagues or even the Russian league but the NHL gives young pros a place to play in their home country, where they can feel comfortable and the big team has more influence over their development. Hockey is more like soccer as well in that the best prospects have normally played in more international competitions; spending time across the Atlantic isn’t as foreign to them as it is to many of the top basketball prospects.

    Keep the academies and for everyone else set up an NHL or MLB style draft. Any domestic above the age of 18-20 can enter at anytime; if Europeans or South Americans want to participate they can do so at any age. If a kid you draft wants to go to college let him go, monitor his progress and talk to him about what the team thinks is best for his development, in the end it’s still up to the player to decide. If the player wants to turn pro and the team thinks he’s ready for first team minutes, negotiate a contract and give him a roster spot. If the kid wants to turn pro and the team felt he was worth drafting but that he needs more development then put him on an affiliate team to ensure he gets games. NHL teams tend to have two true affiliates, MLB can have up to seven; if you model player development on this style it’s a good thing to have a pyramid. I’m not saying do any of this tomorrow but you could realistically have development relationships with both NASL and USL Pro so teams can monitor a bunch of prospects and get all of them playing time. The leagues can still compete in US Open cup just ban the affiliate teams and let the others play the first division clubs.

    The flip side of this is if you want the average American sports fan to feel they have the right to thump their chest and claim to be the best in the world the NFL and the NBA has no issues with that. There is a good percentage of the world that has decided to care about basketball and they are closing the gap somewhat. If the United States national team starts getting beat in international competition you might see a more advanced strategy to turn preps to pros or, more honestly, mold better team oriented basketball players. Lucky for them the structure is already in place right now they’re just getting it all for free. All they’d have to do it buy out the best AAU administrators and coaches and start feeding those kids into the D-League but make it a real development league not a holding place for trade bait.
     
  20. ENB Sports

    ENB Sports Member

    Feb 5, 2007
    College is the American Culture and outside of East Asia no other country has this option. If Europe and South America had a college type environment as the United States many players there would also go that route over academy because of the Education component.

    In Europe/South America team athletes join Professional Sports Clubs at a young age and might play Soccer, Basketball, Handball and Hockey for the professional club at 16. But these are phenoms and only include a few players a year. Most play a few games up to 19/20 and don't really participate as an essential player till after 21 and despite playing pro games at a younger age it doesn't mean the European players are better than the American counterparts who go to college. Also all of these sport especially soccer are involved in Transfer market, if a NBA or NHL team takes a player from Europe they pay money to the players team/league in Europe, so there is an incentive to develop young talent more as a revenue stream than performance on the field/rink/court which only exist in North America for the MLS. (although I think the CFL gets some money for players who go to the NFL)

    In terms of the High School players being Drafted in NBA/MLB/NHL it makes sense for teams to want the best prospect available be he 15 or 25 although the question is risk vs reward. NBA/MLB/NHL do pay young unproven prospects but the percentage of the overall costs for these players is very small compared to the total league costs. Even with that as the case all three leagues have tried to create rules to prevent this from happening. NBA with the college, MLB restricting draft bonus and signing of international free agents and in the NHL talk of raising the draft age to 19 or 20 has been an ongoing debate.

    I noticed MLSSoccer did a post on the players who got away from US National Team - http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/12/10/monday-postgame-top-five-us-stars-who-got-away and wouldn't be surprised if they got the idea through this thread. Similar to this is why the MLS believes in the GA and HG systems but their more afraid of not quality on the pitch but of loosing out on a great transfer fee. I understand the leagues point of view although I think the idea is more theory than reality and realistically it's impossible to control the rights of all American soccer players especially if you accomplish this by paying them.

    In comparison to US, England is a complete open market to all youth football players and you imagine given an offer 95% would sign with Manchester United yet despite this pick of the litter a very small percentage of youth players who develop into valuable pro's actually played in the Manchester United youth academy. Truth is it's very hard to tell what a player from 16 to 21 will be as a pro despite showing great physical or performance skills at a young age. (this is true in all pro sports)

    I believe the MLS golden goose is their ability to get attendance, sell merchandise and television and they attain this with a very poor quality on the field. So if the MLS wants to grow and improve and generate more money they need to stop worrying about the minor details and figure out how to get a better product on the field right now. GA's are not the answer, 25-30 year old veterans who have a track record of success are.
     
  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    22SteveD repped this.
  22. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Plenty of U.S. internationals have had youth/senior appearances with other countries. Chris Armas (Puerto Rico), Teal Bunbury (Canada), Martin Vazquez (Mexico) spring immediately to mind.

    Dooley and Stewart were raised in Europe. I'm guessing I could easily get to double digits of players with MNT caps in the MLS era of players that were not raised in the U.S. and started playing for the MNT before (if ever) playing domestically in the U.S.

    I've been told by members of the team that there were times during the late 90s that the USMNT used German on the field because more players were comfortable in that language than in English with several German nationals on the team and quite a few others playing for German clubs.

    I'm complete unconcerned with the odd Rossi or Subotic. The only one that really, really bothers me is Alina Garciamendez. We could really use her on the back line.
     
    Jasonma repped this.
  23. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

    Jul 1, 1999
    MA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Yes, all the basketball players and football players in the US go through the college ranks and don't go pro right away because of the educational component. :laugh:
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, but a number of baseball and hockey players do (or more importantly, their parents want them to get the educational component).
     
  25. looknohands

    looknohands Member+

    Apr 23, 2009
    Louisville, KY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The counter argument to this, though, would be how Barcelona runs their youth academies as one great big prepping course on how to play the Barcelona "style." For them, it's much more advantageous to try and develop a core of players that can, after spending years as understudies, become the main pieces of the squad with elite players being brought in to complement them.
     

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