A very simplistic argument. Football does not work in such "what if" fashion. What if Maradona's handball against England was disallowed? What if Cani was able to play the final in 90'? What if Brazil 82' had a good striker, like Careca, Roberto Dinamita or Reinaldo? Inter may not have won the CL in 2010 had it not been for Milito, or Chelsea in 2012 with Drogba, while Barca without Iniesta would not have been a drastic drop. But are Milito and Drogba really better players than Iniesta? I am aware that they play in different positions, but we are only talking about the importance of these players to their team. Plus, the fact that a player, when he plays for a talented team, should be less praised because of the overall might of his team, is a very faulty argument. One thing that escapes many observers' minds is that super-talented teams pose high expectations on all the players starting. They were chosen in place of other fellas with no less talents than them, so they have to justify their talent in a more grandeur way. Furthermore, historically talented teams usually play in such a high-tempo, high-skilled manner that the starting players, usually the offensive ones, have very little margin for error. Jairzinho, for instance, had to be more responsive to a pass made to him by Rivelino or Gerson because just by being their teammates (and with a reputation of himself) puts huge pressure on him. Brazil 70' played quick passings, dribblings were conducted by even the defensive mids and center backs...they had the ball with them at most times during the games...and as someone who has played the game should know that the more balls you get, the greater your chances of errors.. I know, subtle points, but they actually make a big difference. Higuain looks ordinary in this Madrid team, and is usually criticized for his technical limitations. Would the same happen if he were to play for Milan? If you have noticed, highly talented teams usually start either two types of players: 1. those of great talents, 2. those that are habitual to the system and thus can properly implement the coach's ideas. The likes of Pedro fall in the second category, while Iniesta, Messi, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Zito, Gerson et al fall in the second. Busquets and Xavi on either category. Plus, the very fact that Jairzinho was a playmaker that was turned into a winger shows another facet of his talent: versatility. He was the go-to-guy in his club team. But the ball spent most of its time on Rivelino, Tostao or Gerson's feet, not Jairzinho's in 70'. To adapt to a system where you are constricted to a relatively rigid role is a very hard thing to do, especially for a free-role playmaker. Caniggia was a fine player, could have been a legend of the game too, but Jairzinho did enough in his career for this to be a pretty easy pick. If we are to really pick an Argentinean winger, why not pick a Corbatta, a Houseman, or an Orsi?
This is a good post and deserves a lengthier response but right now I don't have the time. I will however briefly mention that Jarizinho was put in a situation similar to what Argentina was in WC90 at WC66 and he did little, likewise in WC74 when a strong Brazil faced a great Netherlands. In regards to versatility, Caniggia a wing forward played the entire WC90 as the sole forward, often covering both the left wing and the penalty box. You are right that in great sides, the expectations to not screw up are very high, but there is also the standard of lifting a mediocre team to overachieve, and here Caniggia clearly outdoes Jairzinho.
By whom? Ever?Really? That's the first time I hear that..... I'm not going to argue about WC62. But WC58? What did Garrincha do then? Didi, Pele and Vava were Brazil's best players in that tournament. I'm aware of that. So what? It doesn't make my opinion false or less valuable. That just proves how underrated Jairzinho was/is. Did you play in both matches to know which was more difficult to play in? There are no easy matches against Italy, at any time period, especially when the match is a semi-final or final. In addition to Caniggia's goal, there were PKs needed to eliminate Italy. If he doesn't score that goal, maybe someone else would've....we don't know. The "what if" game can go both ways. Exceptional, he wasn't. He had one good game vs Nigeria, scoring both goals for the win. He played against Bulgaria in the next game and was subbed, perhaps due to an injury you talk about. And Argentina might've lost those two games, even if Caniggia played. Passenger in 99? Yeah, right......What other two finals for Rijkaard in CL? He only has one more - vs Marseilles in 1993.
Perhaps pele, Tostao, Gerson, Rivelino, Carlos Alberto also benefitted from playing with Jairzinho. Come on, that Brazil team was amazing all around. They all benefitted from playing together! The swap theory is nice but football doesn't work like that.
Well, you're not the only one. There were some that preferred others instead. El Grafico chose Jairzinho as the most dangerous and decisive player, destroying adversaries and defensive schemes, while Ladislao Kubala designated Tostao as the 'most intelligent' and 'impressive' player for Brazil. At the time some praised Pele for his ability to accept a role of a player that no longer had everything channeled through him. For some he did not have a "total performance" but he was generous, he put in a lot of effort hustling and running (which had not been seen in a while according to El Grafico) and he simply embraced the role of not being the 'star', but instead led by example by putting in the necessary work just as any other.
This is a good post. We can look at how many passes Jairzinho made and his passing accuracy in order to access to what extent this otherwise good post (particular part in bold) applies to Jairzinho. More specifically this part: Here the stats: Number of passes at WC70: Carlos Alberto 394 Clodoaldo 317 Rivelino 260 Pelé 249 Jairzinho 221 Gerson 215 Everaldo 200 Piazza 192 Tostao 166 Paulo Cesar 103 Brito 101 Passing accuracy at WC70: Piazza 95.3 Clodoaldo 93.1 Brito 92.1 Gerson 91.2 Rivelino 87.7 Carlos Alberto 87.6 Paulo Cesar 86.4 Tostao 84.9 Everaldo 84.5 Pelé 83.9 Jairzinho 83.7 Passing accuracy opposition half WC70: Clodoaldo 91.2 Piazza 90.4 Gerson 87.4 Tostao 79.9 Pelé 78.2 Rivelino 78.2 Brito 76.5 Carlos Alberto 75.7 Everaldo 72.9 Jairzinho 72.4 Paulo Cesar 71.9 Did not include: Felix, Marco Antonio, Fontana, Miranda, Edu [goalkeeper or too few minutes played]
Despite of Jairzinho is in the bottom list. His numbers weren't bad at all. Also considering that he was arguably the most advanced FW in Brazil '70, facing a thougher mark.
If it's the first time you ever heard that, then you need to read more football history. Any match against Italy at the WC is tough, true, but some may be tougher than others and you can tell this by observing the matches in question. Playing them at home with a record-setting defense may be one of the toughest matches against Italy ever. Garrincha was immediately recognized as one of the world's greatest players after WC58, certainly ahead of Vava. He solidified his status in WC62 with an even better performance but that does not mean his WC58 was not excellent. No mention of Jairzinho's two failures in WCs 66 and 74? In regards to Caniggia, if he doesn't glide to score that awesome goal no one in Argentina scores, it was a team short on firepower even if they had started to take control of the match, plus add to that a defense consisting of Zenga, Bergomi, Ferri, Baresi and Maldini. And Caniggia only played four minutes against Bulgaria before leaving to injury, thus I don't count this as a match he really played in.
Yes agree, but he did make a significant amount of passes which forwards, in their 'traditional' sense, usually do not do. See Messi at current Barcelona; quite often not among the 'best' of his team in terms of passes attempted (i.e. number of passes). Good point though, this forward position of Jairzinho has to be reflected in the total shots made and chances created (two categories that are arguably at odds with achieving a high passing accuracy). Total shots attempted: Pelé 26 Rivelino 25 Tostao 17 Jairzinho 12 Paulo Cesar 9 Carlos Alberto 8 Gerson 7 Clodoaldo 6 Everaldo 5 Brito 0 Piazza 0 Chances created: Pelé 28 Tostao 15 Jairzinho 13 Rivelino 13 Carlos Alberto 9 Clodoaldo 7 Paulo Cesar 6 Gerson 2 Everaldo 2 Brito 0 Piazza 0
At WC70, Jaizinho was "positioned" as a right winger, but he played as a right FW (often run tio the area when Pele. Tostao withdrawn deeper) to become a main striker from the wing. Leaving a space for Carlos Alberto to go more advance! (CR7 at ManU in 2008-09 and Messi at Barca 06-09 were playing exactly like Jaizinho style) In other hand, Rivelino was "positioned" as a left winger, but he did withdrawn deeper and play like a "right MF", (like Iniesta playing now for Barca). So despite of the label of 4 2 4 formation, during the real play Brazil 70 is more like --------------------------------- Jaizinho ------ -------------- Tostao --------------------------- ---Rivelino ----------------Pele ---------------- ------------- Gerson -------------------------- ----------------------Clodoaldo-------- C.Alberto Evaraldo ----- Piazza -------- Brito ------------- --------------------- Felix ------------------------
[Sir Tom Finney was a comfortably superior "out-&-out" and two-sided winger and all-'round attacking player if compared to Canhoterio. For some reason more modern followers of the game tend to see Finney as just Sir Stanley Matthews' opposite flank "caddy"...]
I had to back and check! I thought I'd have included him somewhere and he was in the 2nd European squad as a starting left-winger yes. I guess you remember a lot of 'hype' about him as the "Magic Dragan" after the 1968 Euros and particularly his goal vs England? I noticed this was on Youtube (Red Star Belgrade vs Pele's Santos from the late 60's) and it shows him serving a few assists: I know he also played for a select XI (I think that was a European team IIRC or a FIFA team but would need to remind myself) vs in Brazil around the same time and impressed Pele who called him the "Balkan Miracle". I remember Ernst Ocwirk is another player you rated highly Roy, so maybe you'd think he'd be a worthy selection at least for an All-Time European 2nd squad?
If you are making the strongest and most well balanced TEAM as opposed to a group of individuals then I have 2 teams that would be too strong for any South American all time team... the first team is in 4-3-3 formation and the second team is in 4-4-2 formation.
Team 1... 4-3-3 formation ----------------Schmeichel---------------- McGrain-Baresi-Beckenbauer-Maldini ------Matthaus--Rijkaard--Zidane------ --------Best--Van Basten--Cruyff--------
Team 2... 4-4-2 formation -----------------Schmeichel--------------- McGrain-Baresi-Beckenbauer-Maldini Johnstone--Matthaus--Rijkaard--Best -----------Van Basten-Cruyff------------
BEST EUROPE XI ALL TIME: Cruyff ----Puskas--- Eusebio --- Best -------Platini ------- Zidane -------- ------------ Beckenbauer------------ -- Maldini --- B Moore -- Baresi --- -------------- L Yashin---------------- Coach: Rinus Michels and Alex Fergusson SUBS: ---------Muller ---- Van Basten-------- -R. Kopa -------------- --------Mathews - -------------B. Charlton ---------------- -------Rijkaard----------Mathauss------ ---Fachetti----- Thuram ------ Krol------- --------------Schmeichel-----------------
BEST SOUTH AMERICA XI ALL TIME ---------------- Pele -------------------- --- Zico ---- Maradona --- Garrincha- ----------- Didi ----L Monti---------- N Santos ---------------------D Santos --------Passarella----Figueroa---------- ---------------- Fillol ------------------- Coach: Menotti and Zagallo SUB: ----------Ronaldo -------Romario -------- ----Rivelino ---DiStefano ---Socrates ---- RCarlos--------- Varela ----------C Alberto ----------Da Guia -------L Andrade-- ----- ------------------ Gilmar--------------------
@JamesBH11 - is the subject about all time or just WC performance? If it's WC based, I would go like this for South America: Mazurkewicz Carlos Alberto-Varela-Passarella-N Santos Mascherano-Didi-Maradona Garrincha-Pele-Kempes
Mine is ALL TIME based on both clubs and INternational record (thats why Di Stefano was on 2nd team) Now your team? Zico was one level above Kempes PERIOD Ronaldo was TWICE a Kempes in WC performance, and was TWICE Kempes overall career. Romario was close to Kempes (per 1 WC) and was TWICE Kempes as player
Based on WC performance, Kempes' is better than Zico and Ronaldo. Romario comes close, but I still give the edge to Kempes, only one of two players ever to win Golden Ball, Golden Boot and the WC trophy in same tournament.
again no clue - turn back the pages in this thread and see for yourslef: Ronaldo was in EVERY LIST TOP10 best WC players (ranked 4 to 8 worst) Even Romario was ranked higher (from 16 to 26) Zico varied form 12 to 35 .... (he was injured in 86) -*Kempes was 25 t0 36 at best ranking
That's because those lists overrate recent players, like Messi at WC14. Kempes gave a better performance than both, and won a trifecta of awards in one tournament that Ronaldo nor Zico could do.