In the Libertadores, Caniggia at River was better than Jairzinho for Cruzeiro. Caniggia was also better at the Copa America, with strong performances in CAs 87 and 89 and the player of the tournament in CA91, a smoldering performance which I doubt you watched. Jairzinho has the better WC record overall but if things don't go awry for Argentina in WC94 (thanks to Havelange) it's a different story. Also, a ridiculous yellow against Italy in the epic WC90 semifinal meant he missed the final match, had he played I truly believe he takes Germany's scalp like he did with Brazil and Italy.
Very good remark here! Jairzinho spent most time as AM/FW but often people remember his great perfomance for Brazil NT as a "right winger/ FW" so he got such a "misleading" fame for. Same with Rivelino, most people "thought" he was either a Left winger or a FW, but his main position was a "classic playmaker" operate in CAM position. Caniggia was a skillful Wide Forward (not winger) in same style as G.Best, CR7, Cantona ... not as a Garrincha, Overmars Figo or Giggs type
I could watch him mate, I remember his very good performances against Paraguay, Venezuela and Chile. There are other two points I think are against of Caniggia in this comparison. First, his lower level and regularity at club level than Jairzinho, who is one of the most legendary players of Botafogo alongside Nílton Santos or Garrincha. Second, and probably the most important, I think their individual skills aren't also at the same spot. Caniggia was faster by sure, but Jairzinho seems me better at overall in physique terms, better technically and with a more powerful shot.
That's true, but I also think it's fair to consider him as winger because despite he played longer as "mediapunta", he was always involved in a side position. He started his career as left-winger and was very often evoked as the successor of Garrincha for Botafogo.
Caniggia was very impressive in Serie A though, with four excellent seasons at Atalanta, his two year spell at AS Roma was less successful due to injury. Roberto Baggio himself called him a "legend".
I could only rate his spell in Atalanta as very good for sometimes, but clearly not at the level of Jairzinho in his higher peaks of performance reaching an historical level for Botafogo in my opinion.
I think Caniggia's play at River Plate and Boca Juniors is higher than Jairzinho's however. Also the Brazilian did not have to move abroad to Europe and play a different game than what he was accostumed.
But Jairzinho played in Brazil in a different time, when South American leagues were stronger. Do you believe Caniggia was better than Jairzinho in terms of individual abilities?
No, I think it's a close call there, but Caniggia played better in bigger games. To me, you can have Didi, Platini, Maradona, etc. all lob the ball to Jairzinho one hundred times and he never scores over Baresi, Bergomi and Ferri.
Matthaus had a better offensive game than Rijkaard, therefore he had the better all round game. His WC90 performance and longevity are enough to put him higher overall as a player IMO. But for a DM role, a strictly defensive role, I would choose Rijkaard any day. Why is Garrincha greater than Jairzinho? One has WC62 the other one has WC70. Both played most of their years and at their best in Botafogo. Jairzinho has more goals for club and country. I get it that Garrincha was a flashier player and great dribbler (undoubtedly more popular, "joy of the people"), but Jairzinho was more effective and multi-dimentional. Not a bad dribbler, better goalscorer. In my version of the SA all-star team I wanted someone who was more like a forward than just a winger. Aren't you forgetting that Garrincha also played in that WC66 team? And yes at WC70 Jairzinho played along side Pele, Tostao and Rivelino, but he outshone them all and was perhaps Brazil's best player in that tournament, scoring in every game. You say that the Brazilian team from WC74 is one of the worst teams, along with the one from 1990. Yet in 74 Brazil still managed to get further than they did in 66. That 74 team was led by Jairzinho and Rivelino, both older, the WC was in Europe where Holland and Germany just had better generation of players already. Caniggia? Bigger than Jairzinho? Please....don't make me laugh!
Yet, Jairzinho has scored more goals in his career for club and country than Caniggia has. Don't get me wrong though, I loved Caniggia too. He was excellent at WC90 (better than Maradona IMO), but Jairzinho's WC70 is slightly better.
First bold: Matthaus may have been a more complete player, but that's different from being a better player. I think quite a few players were more complete than Garrincha, Best or Platini, including Matthaus himself. But that doesn't mean these were better players, Platini is a much greater player than Matthaus, despite having little defensive prowess. Also, I don't think Matthaus' performance at WC90 was anything extraordinary, he was just solid during a tournament where many of the stars failed to live up to expectations. Despite this, Gascoigne, Stojkovic and Caniggia all played better than him. And Rikjaard owns him at club level, winning the CL with two different teams and being an integral part of them, while Matthaus never even came close. Second bold: Garrincha has WC58 and WC62, his performance in the latter is arguably the second best of all time at a WC, Jairzinho is not even in the discussion. I don't think this is even worth considering, Garrincha is on a plateau much higher than Jairzinho as that is the consensus for a reason. Third bold: Garrincha was 31 at WC66 and plagued with injuries as his physical handicap finally had caught up with him. Even then, Brazil played better with Garrincha than with the young and healthy Jairzinho. Also, this must be the first time I hear Jairzinho outshining Pele, Tostao, Gerson and Rivelino at WC70, I can assure you no Brazilian would ever say that. He played well on a team that had everything going for them, yet not so impressive when things weren't as peachy. Fourth bold: Jairzinho scored one irrelevant goal against an overmatched Italy, Caniggia scored a goal that broke their record and eliminated an Italian side that looked invincible up to that point. Who's the bigger player? Agree, Caniggia was Argentina's best player at WC90. Also, Caniggia played in a super defensive Serie A, and he was not the type to pad his stats with meaningless goals. He had a knack for scoring the big goals or making the key play that lead to those goals. Jairzinho failed every time with Brazil except at WC70.
IN case you don't realize that Jaizinho was a big games player (better than Caniggia) 1- WC: 7goals/6games of WC70. (He was the Very FIRST (HISTORY record) to have scored in every game from day 1 to final at WC level) and 2goals/6games WC74 2- Libertadore: 11goals/12games 1976 3- Club world 1968 Campeona (3goals/4games) 4- WC qual: 3goals/6games 5- Brazil Independence cup : 3goals/4games 6- Sao Paolo Championship: 6gaols/9games
Except for WC70, those numbers aren't too impressive. I believe someone posted about Jairzinho's goals in Mexico, and only his game-winner against England was a crucial goal for Brazil. I believe Caniggia and Cruyff are the only players whose goals have eliminated Brazil and Italy from the WC.
[I think that this also has something to do w/Greaves thinking that he should've been in the England '58 Sweden squad post-"MAD". Greaves has a good point; but he would've faced stiff competition for the "goal-scoring" I-F job from the likes of John Atyeo, Sir Bobby Charlton & Brian Clough at that stage of his career IMO...]
In numbers the difference in scoring ability between Matthaus and Rijkaard isn't very big. Matthaus scored 17 goals in 100 European club games but 7 were penalty kicks. Rijkaard scored 12 in 52, none of them a PK. Matthaus scored 8 of 23 goals for Germany from the spot. Rijkaard scored none of his 10 goals from the spot. Rijkaard also stepped up in big games. Anyhow, the longevity is a big plus for the first one (irrespective of how good he was as sweeper in the latter half of the 90s).
Well Caniggia goal in WC90 was 75% effort of Maradona dribble run. He was just a good finisher at final touch. In general, goal scored against Brazil is relatively easy since Brazil were never a great defensive team. Goals against Italy, Germany, France , Uruguay, Argentina, Sweden ... are more difficult since they were all good in defense - or at least betetr than Brazil
[This is an excellent thread from XT.org where a handful of the E. European football lads over there give some good info on Kubala: http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187392 Once again, I hope that you will find this information helpful, mate.]
Thanks Roy. Actually I accidentally lied - I have seen Kubala play a 90 minutes - babaorum posted a France vs Spain game from 1959 last year. Kubala was playing alongside Di Stefano, Suarez etc for Spain - Kubala more in the attack and Suarez as the attacking midfielder effectively. That was late in Kubala's career though.
It's not true that Matthaus was never even close to winning a CL. In fact he was in 1999 with Bayern Munich. That game was the epitome of "coming as close as you can, but not winning it". He was also on the losing side in 1987 against Porto. While agree that "more complete player" doesn't necessarily mean "better player", in Matthaus vs Rijkaard it is true - Lothar was the better overall player, while Frank was the better defensive player. Platini and Garrincha were better players than Matthaus, not sure about Best (I don't rate him that highly). Matthaus in WC90 wasn't an extraordinary performance, but it was very good and he showed leadership. Caniggia was perhaps better than him, but not Gascoigne or Stoikovic. What does Garrincha have in WC58, besides the medal? He didn't score any goals, did he have any assists at least? Yes, he was great in 62, but Jairzinho was great in 1970. The reasoning for the consensus can be questioned legitimately. Jairzinho was 30 at WC74 and he still did better than Garrincha in WC66, while Brazil overall did better too. No shame in losing to that Dutch team, you know. I don't care what Brazilians would say, Jairzinho was their best player in 1970. I can't believe you would even compare the two games! First, Jairzinho score in the final, Caniggia in a semi-final. Second, Caniggia's goal wasn't enough to eliminate Italy, it took PKs to do that. Who is the bigger player? The one who has a WC title and scored in every round/match of the WC...... I have a problem with the term "meaningless goal(s)" many like to use in order to undermine a player. What does it mean? Every goal is meaningful as it adds to the scoreline, making the margin more expressive and convincing. Plus, I'm sure Caniggia has had "meaningless goals" himself. If we talk about failures, Caniggia failed at WC94, when the team was more stacked than at WC90. I'm sure you will say that he scored two goals vs Nigeria, but Jairzinho also scored 2 goals at WC74. Plus, again....Brazil WC74 went further in the competition than Argentina WC94. So what is more a "failure"? And so what if Caniggia played in the super-defensive Seria A? He didn't play there all his career.
Regarding Garrincha, his WC debut with Pele against USSR are universally acknowledged as the best 45 minutes of football ever. Garrincha was a key player of the WC58 triumph, one of the best three with Didi and Pele, plus easily the best player at WC62, which puts him a good level above Jairzinho. Also, you may believe that Jairzinho was the best player for Brazil at WC70, everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as you're aware it's not one that's shared by almost anybody. Everyone I have talked about regarding Brazil at WC70 regards Pele, Tostao, Rivelino, Gerson and C Alberto as the best players on that side, well ahead of Jairzinho. As for Caniggia, the match against Italy in the semifinals of WC90 by an Argentinian team that often resembled a glorified pub side is far more difficult than playing against an overmatched (and tired) Italy in the WC70 final. Without Caniggia's goal Italy goes to the final, hence his goal was crucial for Argentina, and it indeed brought about the elimination of Italy. Also, Caniggia was exceptional in WC94 but went out injured after the second match, both he and Maradona did not play in the subsequent matches which Argentina not coincidentally lost. PS: Matthaus was a mere passenger for Bayern in CL99, I'll give you the 87 campaign but that only makes it one relevant final for Matthaus versus three CL wins and two other finals for Rikjaard.
[This must be the France v. Spain "friendly" that you mentioned; Dec. of '59 at the Parc des Princes IIRC: Once again, I hope that you will find this information helpful, mate.]
Caniggia was too much of a bohemian and an eccentric player to really have a career his talents deserved. (A different kind of talent than a Garrincha, Houseman, Julinho or Canhoteiro...he had more German qualities in him). Cani was crucial in the 1990 world cup, in 1994 too he was commendable. His partnership with Maradona was legendary. But he played the game like the Colombians did...like Asprilla...he knew he was good, never felt pressure, not even a single hint of nervousness...but at the end he was a man of free spirit...he did not like to adopt, nor to stay in a rigid system. Had he been more professional, Cani could have had a lot more in his career (not moving to Boca, for one)....but these are just "could haves" would haves"...the game of football does not only merit pure talent, but its application and the effects it has on both the players, spectators and the specter of the game...Jairzinho's impact in the game is much bigger than Cani's, and his overall accomplishment in the game too trumps the Argentine's. To get technical, Jairzinho was also a more accomplished master of the game. To compare an Argentinean player to Jairzinho would be incredulous because there have not been too many AM-turned-winger in Argie football (though the reverse is usually seen...cite Ortega). The closest one would be Mario Kempes, and that now would be a pretty legit comparison (a close one as well).
Jairzinho benefits from playing with Pele, Tostao, Gerson, Rivelino, Carlos Alberto, etc. Who did Caniggia have in WC90 besides a broken down Maradona and the unlikely hero Goycoechea? Swap them and Brazil still wins WC70 while Argentina goes out in the round of 16 at WC90.