Amoros and Bossis could be considered but honestly there are so many names at their position that I can understand you didn't pick them. Great job anyway .
What's so difficult to defend? Rikjaard as the #5 with Charlton or Xavi as the #8. I wouldn't pick Matthaus even in the third team.
you know what is a big point on why ronaldo isn't that good ?????????????? van basten and eusebio (to name just a few) and even gerd muller who was considered lazy but actually wasn't. those players also did their defending dutys. and if they did not have their day they could work for other players. ronaldo and romario type of players never worked never chased their opponents when they lost the ball. having such a player in you're team means the other players will have to work harder. thtas why i always rate a romario/ronaldo type player less then van basten type player. as skilled as ronaldo was when he did not have his day he was not willing to work hard for the rest of the team.
its easy to place rijkaard over mattheus as DM (at least in making an all time team) simply because the defensive skills of tijkaard where a bit better then mattheus his. overall mattheus probably the better player but in the role of defensive midfielder i rate rijkaard a bit higher. p.s. on the ruud krol/geatano scirea part. i think the problem is that krol played half his career leftback and the other half sweeper/central defender. where as scirea played almost his entire career as a sweeper. so some people have difficulty ranking him. so would krol played leftback all career he probably would compete with maldini/fachetti fore the nr. 1 spot. would krol played sweeper all his career he would be ranked just below beckenbauer as the undisputed nr. 2 all time on that position. last in the baresi/scirea discussion ? in my honest opinion scirea should be rated higher as baresi.
[Excellent squad-building there, mate: I might suggest Johnny Haynes here rather than Hoddle because Haynes (before the auto accident) had a much more physical side to his game, was a superior ball-winner to Hoddle when called on to do so and also carried more of a goal threat (as both of their club and international careers goal tallies should show). But, it's simply my opinion and should be viewed accordingly...]
This is interesting comparison. IMO Europe has the advantage in GKs, defense (except for right-backs) and defensive midfielders. In attacking midfielders its about even. SA has better right wingers, Europe has better left wingers. SA has better forwards than Europe, though Europe's aren't too shabby either. Here is my attempt at the best XI's: Europe: 1) Yashin 2) Vogst 3) Maldini 4) Rijkaard** 5) Beckenbauer 6) Moore 7) Scirea* 8) Cruijff 9) Muller*** 10) Platini 11) Eusebio*** Find your football tactics app at this11.com * I prefer Scirea over Baresi. ** Matthaus was a better overall player than Rijkaard, but Frank was better on the defensive side and that is needed when facing an All-time SA team. *** Puskas was obviously a great forward and goalscorer too, but Eusebio and Muller edge it for me because of their WC performances. South America: 1) Fillol 2) D. Santos 3) N. Santos 4) Figeroa 5) Monti 6) Passarella 7) Jairzinho* 8) Didi** 9) Pele 10) Maradona 11) Di Stefano** Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com * I know I will get a lot of stick for this but I prefer Jairzinho over Garinccha, because to me he is more multi-dementional winger/forward. ** I opted to include both Didi and Di Stefano instead of another forward because I'd like a partnership up front by the two greatest players in the game - Pele and Maradona. Another reason is that it will give the SA team more balance when facing an All-time Europe team.
In a "fantasy world" your team is great one, no doubt. I did not mean it's a "bad" selection, but simply add on some reality on the sides like INFO, no more no less. After all it won;t be any realistic team by any means -
I know Jimmy Greaves spoke very highly of Haynes, Roy. In fact he seemed (against popular opinion?) to rate the team of 1961 (not 1962 due to ageing I believe) higher than the 1966 or 1970 England teams. I'm getting this from the interview he gave to Jimmy Armfield that you linked to on the Footballs Greatest thread. It could be that footage from after his accident (and as he got older) could be misleading then I guess. From what you've said about his England partnership with Edwards I see why you'd put him forward for such a role albeit the formation would be a bit different overall. I think like the Spaniard Luis Suarez that I mentioned in my post, he possibly played quite advanced as an inside forward (but not a goal-scoring inside-forward) in the 50's and into the 60's? I suppose that along with the goalscoring rates of the era would give him an advantage over Hoddle in terms of getting oportunities to score but even so at International Level he was the more prolific whatever way we look at it. Perhaps when Hoddle was at his most prolific as a scorer for Tottenham he was only a bit part player for England. And yeah, Hoddle wasn't a ball winner although I've noticed he did occasionally succeed with a sliding tackle.
Rikjaard was better than Matthaus as a player: he always outplayed him in Serie A, and at NT level Rikjaard was better at Euro88, Euro92 and WC94. Matthaus was better at WC86 (the Dutchman did not participate) and WC90. Matthaus also played at WC98 but his performance was subpar, especialy against Croatia and Yugoslavia, who exploited his slowness. So overall, about even at NT level, maybe a small advantage to the German for longevity, however Rikjaard is much better at club level. And not only is Garrincha greater than Jairzinho, there are at least five other SA wingers that are better than him.
[Perhaps I should give the info over in that Haynes thread? It's certainly up to you, mate: if you happen to prefer Hoddle in that role over Haynes then go right ahead...]
Agree that Rijkaard was a more skillful player than Mathauss. Mathaus had better WC games, while Rijkaard shone great at UCL and Euro. Mathaus was also a very goodleader
I'm curious, who are in your mind mate? Garrincha is for me the best South American right-winger by sure, but Jairzinho has clearly the second position in my opinion. Behind of them would be Julinho, Omar Corbatta, Carlos Peucelle, René Houseman, Alcides Ghiggia, Luis Cubilla, Juan José Muñante, Daniel Bertoni, Gerónimo Barbadillo, Willington Ortiz and Antonio Alzamendi.
Yeah that would be good if you'd like to Roy. Perhaps we could just have a link in this thread to direct us to the Johnny Haynes thread which I know you've contributed to already. It's always good to get to know more about these older legends and you're particularly good with memories of the old British ones and finding good links to describe their games. In the end I went with Jean Tigana, the French midfielder, for that place in my 2nd European squad as I felt his combination of skill and stamina would be a good fit. So I wasn't choosing any of those players, Hoddle included, to play as the deep-lying playmaker alongside Edwards. I know the area Hoddle was exceptional in was the technical side but I understand that Haynes was also a skillful and creative player. Perhaps pre-injury Haynes was a bit quicker and dribbled more (Hoddle was great with manipulating the ball and particularly in the early 80's for Tottenham could dribble well over a short distance before scoring from the edge of the box etc)? If you want to give any answers or insight after these further questions then probably the Haynes thread would be a good place for that too - feel free to quote me or ask me to put my quotes in that thread if you want to put your answers into context . Thanks Roy. On a seperate note, and I know it's an 'impossible' task in a lot of ways but are there a couple of European players from times past that you'd consider for the first or at least second all-time squad that haven't been mentioned yet? I know that, of the non-British players, you've written about Fritz Walter and Gunnar Nordahl in glowing terms so maybe they'd be in your plans if you were compiling such a squad?
Maradona with Passarella/Pele and Didi with Di Stefano would be fun in reality. Maybe Diego and Pele might overcome their differences for the sake of winning, but the other two factually don't work. Kudos to Tony who moved away from the usual allstar-team concept. I'd play Pele with Garrincha, Rivelino, Didi/Di Stefano - Monti, Falcao - Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos not sure about CBs - Fillol/Gilmar/Mazurkiewicz doesn't really matter Europe I would include Platini and Cruyff for sure, rest is variable leaning towards Puskas, Kocsis, Bozsik- CBs either Blanc+Desailly or Baresi+some like Vierchowod/Costacurta/Cannavaro, RB Thuram, LB Krol/Maldini, GK Buffon.
[I both saw and followed the likes of Josef Bozsik, Kubala, Neeskens and Yashin: it's just that people tend to ask me more about British and Irish footballers or foreigners that played in the British leagues (such as George Robledo); so those are the questions that I generally end up answering. Did you have any questions on any particular players, mate?]
Yeah I understand Roy. I do think you are particularly knowledgable about a lot of the older English 1st Division players that a lot of us don't know a lot about, but also have great memories and understanding of foreign players (Ocwirk is another you talked about, and Masopust). I remember you said you went to the 1953 game between England and the Europe XI. Did you also happen to see the 1963 game between England and the Rest of the World (I have actually seen those 90 minutes myself after a Big Soccer member found a link for the game a while ago)? Yashin would be a particularly interesting one to get your thoughts on, in general, and in terms of whether you think he is a clear number 1 in terms of European/World goalies. Thanks. Anything you want to add about the others would be interesting too I'm sure (Kubala is the one from that list that I haven't seen play a full 90 minutes, but I know you discussed him a little in another thread and posted some links).
Rijkaard was also a good leader. Agree that he was more skillful and if you deduct the 17 PK goals of Matthaus in Serie A the difference in goalscoring isn't very big either. Still, based on WC90 Matthaus has a stronger claim for an all-time XI as well as longevity. Anecdote: Toni Schumacher once referred to Matthaus as the 'walking pharmacy'
Besides Garrincha, who is greatest winger ever, I also rank Caniggia, Bertoni, Ghiggia and Cubilla ahead on the right wing, and Schiaffino, Orsi, Sivori and Julinho ahead as left wingers.
England v. the RotW XI @ Wembley in Oct. of '63: Just in case any of you would like to see it; here's the full 90 minutes+ on film: http://tvali.eu/index.php?action=watch&v=199487 Yes, I was there on assignment for "The Monthly" back in '63...
Caniggia seems me a very odd selection, I think he's notoriously below the level of Jairzinho and Julinho. Bertoni seems me also far of that level despite he was a popular player at his time. Omar Corbatta, Carlos Peucelle and René Houseman seems me the best Argentinean right-wingers. Apart of that, I've to note that Schiaffino wasn't a winger. He played as a left inside-forward, not outside-forward. He was more the type of an attacking-playmaker or "mediapunta".
This is an excellent obit & profile of Schiaffino by Brian Glanville in The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2002/nov/15/guardianobituaries.football
Jairzinho was poor at WC66, looked good at WC70 next to the likes of Pele, Tostao, Gerson and Rivelino. The WC74 side, where he was supposed to be one of its leaders, is the worst Brazilian side at a WC besides the one of WC90, so that should tell you something. Caniggia a big game player.
I'd say he was one of the best players in the 1970 World Cup, overshadowing other great legends. But that's only his record at World Cups, he was primarily an impressive player for Botafogo and Cruzeiro, a big star of the Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa, the Río / Sao Paulo Tournament, the Campeonato Carioca and the Copa Libertadores. Also he had a great performance during the World Cup of Clubs in 1968. I'd rate Jairzinho as Top 5 into the greatest wingers ever (despite I know he played regularly as "mediapunta"), very ahead of Caniggia, who had only a regular career at this level.