all time european XI vs all time south-american the build up

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tony-soprano37, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Your two teams from each continent could have a play-off game between themselves to 'qualify' for the main event(s) I guess:laugh:. Although alternatively the similar formations could play against each other (would it be more entertaining to have the different formations play each other though perhaps?).
     
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  2. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    hahah yeah maybe they could. i alway like to make several formations because soem players better fit in certain formations and not so good in others.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    PDG1978
    Nice teams for Europe- and Nice team for SA,
    However one small adjustment on RB position at both teams:
    - D.Santos was better than Cafu in defense, while Carlos Alberto was better (general) in attack than Cafu in SA first team
    - Thuram was a bit better than Suurbier as RB. Suurbier ever was.
    Any comments Babaorum ?
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks. Baboarum might put forward Amoros too now I think about it - once I realised I hadn't considered him I was on one hand thinking well he could even be in team 1 but on the other hand if favouring Suurbier he could miss out altogether still (as Thuram would cover the centre-back position better). Bossis might even be put forward by babaorum too potentially, but while I like his style and think he was a quality and versatile defender he probably wouldn't dislodge the other players I mentioned. Tight calls but France are well off for full-backs just like Brazil are.

    Could the Cafu comments be turned around to say he's better than Djalma Santos going forwards?(yes, I think so) and better than C.Alberto in defence? (no, but he is quicker and with greater energy and stamina).
     
  5. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    If this exercise is about the comparison of the best individualities by each position, I'd extend to compare the Top 5 from my own rankings to obtain a result:

    Goalkeepers

    1. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union) vs. Amadeo Carrizo (Argentina)
    2. Dino Zoff (Italy) vs. Ubaldo Fillol (Argentina)
    3. Gianluigi Buffon (Italy) vs. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay)
    4. Peter Schmeichel (Denmark) vs. Gilmar (Brazil)
    5. Gordon Banks (England) vs. José Luis Chilavert (Paraguay)

    Central Defenders

    1. Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) vs. Daniel Passarella (Argentina)
    2. Franco Baresi (Italy) vs. Elías Figueroa (Chile)
    3. Bobby Moore (England) vs. José Nasazzi (Uruguay)
    4. Gaetano Scirea (Italy) vs. José Emilio Santamaría (Uruguay)
    5. Ruud Krol (Netherlands) vs. Héctor Chumpitaz (Peru)

    Right-Backs

    1. Berti Vogts (Germany) vs. Djalma Santos (Brazil)
    2. Lilian Thuram (France) vs. Carlos Alberto (Brazil)
    3. Danny McGrain (Scotland) vs. Cafú (Brazil)
    4. Eric Gerets (Belgium) vs. Javier Zanetti (Argentina)
    5. Paul Janes (Germany) vs. Leandro (Brazil)

    Left-Backs

    1. Paolo Maldini (Italy) vs. Nílton Santos (Brazil)
    2. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy) vs. Roberto Carlos (Brazil)
    3. Karl-Heinz Schnellinger (Germany) vs. Silvio Marzolini (Argentina)
    4. Andreas Brehme (Germany) vs. Júnior (Brazil)
    5. Antonio Cabrini (Italy) vs. Víctor Rodríguez Andrade (Uruguay)

    Defensive Midfielders

    1. Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands) vs. José Leandro Andrade (Uruguay)
    2. Marco Tardelli (Italy) vs. Luis Monti (Argentina)
    3. Duncan Edwards (England) vs. Obdulio Varela (Uruguay)
    4. Graeme Souness (Scotland) vs. Fernando Redondo (Argentina)
    5. Dave Mackay (Scotland) vs. Néstor Rossi (Argentina)

    Central Midfielders

    1. Lothar Matthäus (Germany) vs. Didí (Brazil)
    2. Luis Suárez (Spain) vs. Falcao (Brazil)
    3. József Bozsik (Hungary) vs. Gérson (Brazil)
    4. Josef Masopust (Czechoslovakia) vs. Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina)
    5. Ernst Ocwirk (Austria) vs. Toninho Cerezo (Brazil)

    Attacking-Midfielders

    1. Michel Platini (France) vs. Diego Maradona (Argentina)
    2. Zinedine Zidane (France) vs. Zico (Brazil)
    3. Bobby Charlton (England) vs. Rivelino (Brazil)
    4. Gianni Rivera (Italy) vs. Sócrates (Brazil)
    5. Nils Liedholm (Sweden) vs. Ricardo Bochini (Argentina)

    Mediapuntas

    1. Johan Cruyff (Netherlands) vs. Alfredo Di Stéfano (Argentina)
    2. Ruud Gullit (Netherlands) vs. José Manuel Moreno (Argentina)
    3. Raymond Kopa (France) vs. Zizinho (Brazil)
    4. Valentino Mazzola (Italy) vs. Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina)
    5. Fritz Walter (Germany) vs. Ronaldinho (Brazil)

    Right-Wingers

    1. Stanley Matthews (England) vs. Garrincha (Brazil)
    2. Luís Figo (Portugal) vs. Jairzinho (Brazil)
    3. Helmut Rahn (Germany) vs. Julinho (Brazil)
    4. Jimmy Johnstone (Scotland) vs. Omar Corbatta (Argentina)
    5. Kurt Hamrin (Sweden) vs. Alcides Ghiggia (Uruguay)

    Left-Wingers

    1. George Best (Northern Ireland) vs. Raimundo Orsi (Argentina)
    2. Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia) vs. Félix Loustau (Argentina)
    3. Francisco Gento (Spain) vs. Pepe (Brazil)
    4. Tom Finney (England) vs. Canhoteiro (Brazil)
    5. Ryan Giggs (Wales) vs. Juan Joya (Peru)

    Forwards

    1. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary) vs. Pelé (Brazil)
    2. Roberto Baggio (Italy) vs. Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    3. Giuseppe Meazza (Italy) vs. Leonidas (Brazil)
    4. Matthias Sindelar (Austria) vs. Tostao (Brazil)
    5. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal) vs. Ángel Labruna (Argentina)

    Centre-Forwards

    1. Eusébio (Portugal) vs. Ronaldo (Brazil)
    2. Gerd Müller (Germany) vs. Romário (Brazil)
    3. Marco van Basten (Netherlands) vs. Arsenio Erico (Paraguay)
    4. Sándor Kocsis (Hungary) vs. Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina)
    5. Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden) vs. Mario Kempes (Argentina)

    Results

    Europe: 42
    South America: 18
     
  6. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    So what you're saying is, Ronaldo isn't good enough to crack your top 46 all-time Europeans? Lol, as an avid follower of everything Portuguese-football for the better part of 20 years, having even Figo ahead of CR7 is absolutely laughable.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Very good effort and good idea Peru.
    However I have a few doubts in your "assumption"

    * LB, I am not so sure Maldini (overated with Milan and Italy team) was better than the so called "The Encyclopedia" and the very first FULLBACK of the football history (Nilton Santos)

    * FW:
    NOt sure if Meazza (overated with lucky WC34) betetr than Leonidas
    BIg question if Sindelar

    * CFW: Kempes was a forward, not a center forward there. Iw oudl swap Kempes (FW) with Leonidas (CFW) And Leonidas or Batistuta were well possibly better than CR7.
    You forgot Vava was also another great CFW here instead of Erico

    * LW: Not sure Finney was better than Canhoterio (very underated talent of prewar time)

    * Lastly you mixed up abit between some names from mediapunta to AM (as part of common media mistakes in present time) Already discussed in other post
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Here's the all-time SA side:

    Mazurkiewicz
    Carlos Alberto---Figueroa---Passarella---N Santos
    Redondo---Didi---Maradona---DiStefano
    Garrincha---Pele

    Bring it on!
     
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Obviously it's only a crude comparison, not so analyzed, but shows a correct proportion in my opinion.

    It's a difficult decision, I ranked both of them among the 3 best side-backs ever alongside Facchetti. I think Maldini was the second best defender ever behind Franz Beckenbauer.

    That's another difficult decision but I think Meazza wasn't only great at World Cup level, but also at club level with Inter Milan.

    I've had already discussions about it. I think Mario Kempes was primarily a centre-forward during his career despite is remembered for occupy a deeper role during the 1978 World Cup. Indeed he was a very polyfunctional attacker but I think his main role was striker: CF*, FW, LW, MP.

    Here I've to disagree strongly because I think Vavá is not at the same league of Arsenio Erico. The Paraguayan is regarded as the best striker ever of the Argentinean football and I'd rate him as the best South American centre-forward just only behind Ronaldo, Romário and Leonidas. I also think he's a very competent candidate to be one of the 10 best centre-forwards of all-time, while Vavá just only border the Top 50.

    Apparently it's part of a long discussion which hasn't consensus.
     
  10. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I agree with James about Kempes.
    1) SS/FW 2) AM 3) LW 4) Striker
     
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  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Europe All-Stars

    [​IMG]

    Substitutes: Dino Zoff, Gaetano Scirea, Ruud Krol, Frank Rijkaard, Bobby Charlton, Zinedine Zidane, Ruud Gullit, Stanley Matthews, George Best, Gerd Müller, Marco van Basten.


    South America All-Stars

    [​IMG]

    Substitutes: Ubaldo Fillol, José Nasazzi, Carlos Alberto, Luis Monti, Fernando Redondo, Zico, Zizinho, José Manuel Moreno, Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, Romário.
     
  12. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    If you have to compare him with a current or recent player, who would be mate?
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Let me take the first shot before Misioux comments''
    Kempes was like a Caniggia (Argentina) , a Baggio/Zola (Italy) a Henry/Anelka (france) a Bebeto/Neymar (Brazil)
    Of course all of them could very well play as a center forward too, in some games.

    In other hand Leonidas was very much like Careca, Romario or Ronaldo = skillful CFW. Ronaldo and Carreca could well play as SS, or wide FW in some games too.

    ==============================================

    in your last SA team,
    1- Falcao would be the weakest link in DM position (his styel is pretty much like Didi, with same attacking mindset and a bit less in skillset) . Zito , Redondo, Monti or even a Dunga could be the better choice as DM with Didi- in fact Didi said Zito was his best partner ever in a two prongs midfield (4 2 4)

    2- Didi and Distefano were a big collision in center midfield playmaking (they failed each other at Real Madrid) One of them should be out
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry mate - I wasn't trying to upset you honestly - we can all be free to post our own ideas/have our own opinions though surely. I respectfully understand your position and don't want any arguments but for example I think you're really under-rating Figo with that statement - I honestly think in his prime he was a great player and in contrast to CR7 a great creator. I think we covered this ground though in a CR7 vs Figo thread ages ago. They are very different players in my view anyway and we can't just look at the goals scored column and think "well they can both be classed as 'wingers' and CR7 has loads more goals".

    Anyway, no desire to upset you but there have a been a lot of great European players and I was choosing players to play in a midfield 4 (like Cruyff etc) then in the second team some real creative wingers like Dzajic and Figo. Maybe the chosen formation doesn't seem to suit CR7 perfectly (although he is now playing a role in a 4-2-3-1 albeit he's sort of a false winger if anything and plays somewhat of a strikers role in effect - the European strikers I chose were also pretty special). I probably would value CR7's abilities a touch higher than some excellent goalies for example (Buffon, Shilton, Zoff) but obviously he can't take their place in the squad (same with a number of the defenders).

    If you'd like to add your own team or squad that'll be interesting to see though, and I won't complain if you include Cristiano Ronaldo I promise:). I do understand where you're coming from in a way because he's clearly a prolific goalscorer and stand-out player in European Club Football over the past few years, but I guess we both understand by now you rate him higher than I do in terms of his overall game. You wouldn't want me to just change my view to agree with you though I'm sure.
     
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  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I agree mostly with you about the two player style and position and role.
    They are two totally different type: Figo was a true winger, while CR7 is a true forward (wide FW to be more specific)
    they both had different effect on their team. Figo could provide a great dribble run on the whole flank to create width and provide crosses, CR7 dribble run is to cut in and score goals.

    Up to 2010: I rated Figo a bit higher than CR7 (for his Euro2000, and his leadership)
    from 2010 to now, I may change my view to rate CR7 higher than Figo (for his more all rounded games, his consistency and his improvement in big games - than before) Note that CR7 maintained a longer peaks than Figo up t0 now - that's the main drive.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Fair enough James yeah. I don't want to take the thread into another CR7 vs Figo debate lol, but you have posted well here to illustrate the differences between them and I agree that CR7's peak years have been more numerous than Figo's. As long as the peak lasts a year or two I don't really consider longevity too much for this sort of thing - even if we had 6 games between the two continents we could probably get them done in a few months lol. My focus is always on prime form unless otherwise stated anyway, but I know some people prefer to rate 'greatness' which considers strongly longevity generally and longevity of prime form too.
     
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  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well, my rating is always in order of
    1- Individual skillset (as basic)
    2- Individual achievements
    3- NT Team/club achievements
    4- Longevity in topforms
    5- Last and not least: Performance in BIG games

    And that is just me. I believe in the term "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" as Football talent rating is like an Art form. As long as it's reasonable, not so much obvious like CR7 > Pele or Malouda is > Figo
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, as a guide to my methods (unless like I say we are discussing "who had the greatest career" or "who won the most medals") I would normally consider above everything point 1 in your list and the effectiveness the player was able to apply those skills and abilities so not just theoritical ability or inconsistent ability.

    I'd also consider to some extent points 4 and 5, but not points 2 and 3 personally although point 5 sort of covers the ability of the player to use his skills to help his team achieve. Hopefully you can follow what I mean.

    From what I remember from the original Figo vs CR7 thread your views have moved just a little towards mine (while I appreciate you still would rate CR7 ahead; maybe you'd not choose him ahead in a select XI depending on the formation and role required) wheras benficafan I think has moved a bit further from my view (though I think he did suggest CR7 ought to be ahead at the time). Anyway, no problem with either of you disagreeing a bit but I'll leave my contribution here as I don't really fancy trying to compile stats for 'shots over bar per 90 minutes' or 'loss of possession in big games' etc that might backup my reasoning on CR7 being justifiably rated below Figo and some others (and chosen behind them for teams like this). I know there would be alternative arguments too btw for why he should rate higher and get a place in any European All-Time XI!
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not trying to say C.Ronaldo is completely inept in terms of passing btw as he's shown he can pull out some good passes using good awareness and good timing and weight of pass at times. Maybe he's even playing a bit more 'unselfishly' in recent games as he gets older (more mature but less physically dominant in terms of acceleration etc I suppose). I don't think he's a genius creatively though and he tends to be focused mostly on scoring goals himself as I've said before. Definately he's a different type of player to Figo.

    Right after that clarification I'll leave it at that.

    benficafan might be pleased to know Gary Neville seemed to suggest Messi and C.Ronaldo were the top 2 players of all time this year on Sky Sports (although he did say "maybe I'm being ignorant of past greats").
     
  20. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I've moved to Kempes to my forwards category and recently I moved to Leonidas to my centre-forwards.

    It's because I'd risk defending with ball possession, a very South American concept, considering also Falcao was regardless a good defensive player.

    That's a well-known argument which I think is pointless when we build all-time teams. The problems between Didí and Di Stéfano were mostly ego problems in a very specific situation, not a net football problem, so we can recreate their society without thinking in the same scenario. By their skills they could be a very complementary players in a high level.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    To be honest, I'd have the same issue with Passarella, Redondo and Maradona in my South American XI. Unless Tele Santana could pull off the diplomatic act of the century perhaps the time machine should go to about 1980 to pickup Maradona and not from the pitch during the 1986 semi-final vs Belgium. And likewise to early in the 90's (maybe during the '94 World Cup) for Redondo not to 2000 (although he had decided to get a neater haircut by then anyway :laugh:). Or I could just leave out Passarella!
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I have to say that I find PDG his lists the most original and thought provoking. Don't know whether I agree with everything (I think I'd take Thuram over Suurbier but include Krol over either Maldini or Moore because I see him as more skillful) but I appreciate that it doesn't seek the 'consensus' or politically correct answer. It is clearly to an extent based on own impressions and ideas instead of informed by 'common sense' (don't know the English word for it but hope one understands what I mean).

    As side-note, what I never understood is why Scirea is often seen as superior to Ruud Krol. When Krol played in Italy, and hence in the same competitions as Scirea, he was actually by Italian pundits rated higher with Krol getting individual awards etc.
    But on the other hand, if I make a side by side comparison of Baresi vs Scirea I don't know who I prefer! (made a thread in the past). Or Krol vs Baresi.
    But I agree with PDG that differences between players are sometimes very small.

    But of course I have preferences; I don't rate grinder Berti Vogts but on the other hand, although I like Rijkaard very much it is difficult to place him over Matthaus (in a previous discussion some posters like Pipiolo argued the contrary which I find a difficult position to defend).

    Difficult...
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for the support as always Puck. 'Peer pressure' might be what you mean?

    Anyway, there's no problem with disagreement and apart from some players that I believe it would be 'laughable' or at least perplexing to omit from the squads (Pele for SA, Cruyff for Europe etc) I agree it's gonna be very debateable and the players available could be very closely matched overall with different advantages and disadvantages.

    If you would include C.Ronaldo yourself then I've no problem with that of course, and the post by yourself earlier in the thread did illustrate his new-found effectiveness against Barcelona at least in terms of scoring goals against them like against others. Possibly I would be seen to 'under-rate' him more than you do by his biggest fans/admirers but for Messi it might be yourself that is seen to 'under-rate' him more than me. No two people are going to see things exactly the same anyway.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No, I don't disagree with you here. I think C. Ronaldo might make a third team but a first team would be very difficult. Figo on the other hand is (in my view) one of the best wingers Europe ever had, certainly from a skills point of view. So Figo has a good chance to make a first team.

    I see C. Ronaldo more as a forward/striker than a winger and with that in mind it is hard to make the first team. Gerd Müller has the longevity on his side, I rate Van Basten as more skillful (better technique, wider range of weaponry), Eusebio has longevity+ability+great World Cup performances and also Puskas is hard to overtake.
    I know you agree with me as far as Van Basten is concerned but also with those other names in the mix it is hard to take Ronaldo over them - in my view.
     
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  25. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Since the primary job of a defender is to... defend I'd pick indeed Thuram ahead of every other right-back (except maybe Vogts ?) :).
     

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