all time european XI vs all time south-american the build up

before making teams i am gonna take it position by position to see wich continent has the better players.

european goalie's 1 yashin (banks, zoff)
south-american goalie's 1 fillol (mazurkiewicz, carrizo)

allthought the substitutes are a little closer together the difference between europe's best and SA best is clear. a descicive win for europe.

leftbacks : maldini, krol, fachetti, karl heinz schnellinger vs nilton santos, marzolini, roberto carlos, junior. again the outcome is close but again europe provides the better leftback.
so 2-0 for europe.

rightbacks : suurbier, bergomi, vogts, mcgrain vs djalma santos, zanetti, cafu, carlos alberto.
personally i favor the europeans but i will go with the general opinion and give it to SA so 2-1 by now.

sweepers/central defenders : beckenbauer, krol, scirea, baresi, moore vs passarella, figueroa, da guia, santamaria. this one goes to europe, 3-1


defensive midfielder : rijkaard, neeskens, bozsik, matthaus, keane, blanchflower, ocwirk vs andrade, varela, monti, redondo, ardiles, rattin. again a close call but i have to give this to europe asswell, so 4-1 by now.

rightwingers : best, matthews, johnstone vs garincha, julinho, jairzinho, juan carlos munoz
this goes to SA 4-2

leftwingers : best, dzajic, gento, finney vs loustau, zagallo, rivaldo, pepe
this goes to europe 5-2

as for the strikers/forwards/attacking midfielders/playmakers i will name like 10 from europe and 10 from south-america and since this group contains several players for several positions in total 4 points can be earned here.

charlton, platini, eusebio, cruyff, puskas, muller, meazza, rivera, gullit, kopa, zidane vs messi, zico, pele, pedernera, di stefano, didi, maradona, schiaffino, socrates, ronaldo, rivellino,
i think SA deserves this with 3-1

so the total makes europe 6 points and SA 5 points

then the coach : rinus michels, ernst happel, vs helenio herrera, carlos bianchi this one goes to europe again so finalscore is 7-5
therefore the conclusion is the a all time european XI would beat an all time south-american XI

Pele, Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano on the same team. If you want change, you can put Garrincha, Ronaldo, Romario, Zico, Schiaffino and others... It's impossible beat the All-Time South America. There is no defense to stop these geniuses.

i never said they all on the same team. please read the thread closely.

as a site note you say its impossible to stop the SA attackers. and what about the europeans ?? for example puskas and muller and eusebio had a higher scoring ratio then zico, maradona, schiaffino.

i rate european defenders higher then the south americans. you think roberto carlos or cafu is gonna stop cruyff, dzajic, best, eusebio ??????????

Nice try, but that was just YOUR OWN opinion to set up the team formation and playing

While I agree that Europe team would be greater from defense midfield to GK surely.
However, SA midfield up to attacks will be too much for their rival in contrast ... so it's a 50-50 call depends on how you play them together and setup the right formation.

Look at your "assumption", None of Schiaffino, Zico would even make the starting, and same go to Carlos and Cafu. So your assumption is NOT valid.

Now my assumption:
The best attack SA in Pele + Ronaldo + Garrincha + Maradona >> Cruijff Muller Best Eusebio
(go look for their goals and assists in big games international for reference)

In defence, Nilton Santos Carlos Alberto Passarella Figueroa , Deguia would be good enough to stop or hold back Europe attack. Even if they could not stop them, the attack above would surely great enough to find more winning goals

Maradona and Pele means SA wins.

In big matches the Europeans are unstoppable

If anyone ever perfects the time machine I think a series of games like 'test matches' as in Cricket ought to be sensational viewing.
Perhaps a game in the Maracana, one in the home stadium of Boca Juniors and one in Mexico City (I know that's not in South America but given Argentina and Brazil's success there it would be a 'home' fixture) and also games in the San Siro, in Paris and the City Ground, Nottingham (oh ok then Wembley instead!).

If I was picking the squads as a European I might be tempted to put players like Mirandinha (who played for Newcastle United) and Denilson (who Real Betis paid a record fee for) in the South American team - still entertaining enough players but a team full of them ought to get thrashed by Europe!. Picking a serious South American team would be a different matter though - on first thought I might make them favourites to win the series or a one-off game, but I feel a reserve team game or moreso a 3rd team or 4th team game would be more in favour of Europe (in other words the depth of overall quality is higher but the South Americans might have the edge in terms of top end talent - in attacking positions only as said above though).

If I was personally selecting the European squad then I'd go with something like this I think:
1) Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
2) Wim Suurbier (Netherlands)
3) Paolo Maldini (Italy)
4) Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
5) Franco Baresi (Italy)
6) Bobby Moore (England)
7) Tom Finney (England)
8) Michel Platini (France)
9) Bobby Charlton (England)
10) Ferenc Puskas (Hungary)
11) George Best (N.Ireland)
12) Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
13) Eusebio (Portugal)
14) Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
15) Lothar Matthaus (Germany)
16) Johan Neeskens (Netherlands)
17) Bixente Lizarazu (France)
18) Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
19) Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
20) Zinedine Zidane (France)
21) Peter Schmeichel (Denmark)
22) Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)
23) Gordon Banks (England)

With the 1st choice starting line-up being maybe:
-------------------------------------1 Yashin------------------------------------

2 Suurbier------------5 Baresi--------------6 Moore--------------3 Maldini

---------------------------------4 Beckenbauer------------------------------
----------11 Best--------------8 Platini----------------14 Cruyff--------------

---------------------13 Eusebio-------------12 Van Basten-------------------

Reserve squad to follow, and 2 South American squads (for the South American ones moreso than the Europeans I'd be a bit vague on some selections and appreciate others might have more experience and knowledge - for example based on my knowledge and familiarity I might put Gilmar in squad 1 and not Carizzo)...

EDIT Almost forgot Puskas but he's in now! Could have taken out Dalglish but felt there was enough striking ability with Puskas added to take out Muller...

European reserves:
1) Peter Shilton (England)
2) Lilian Thuram (France)
3) Ruud Krol (Netherlands)
4) Gaetano Scirea (Italy)
5) Alessandro Nesta (Italy)
6) Duncan Edwards (England)
7) Luis Figo (Portugal)
8) Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia)
9) Gerd Muller (Germany)
10) Roberto Baggio (Italy)
11) Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)
12) Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
13) Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)
14) Thierry Henry (France)
15) Patrick Vieira (France)
16) John Charles (Wales)
17) Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)
18) Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
19) Andriy Shevchenko (Ukraine)
20) Gianni Rivera (Italy)
21) Gianluigi Buffon (Italy)
22) Matthias Sammer (Germany)
23) Dino Zoff (Italy)

Making a starting XI out of these:
-----------------------------1 Shilton--------------------------------

2 Thuram-------4 Scirea-----------16 Charles---------------3 Krol

--------------------------------6 Edwards------------------------
------7 Figo--------------20 Rivera-------------------11 Dzajic---

----------------8 Savicevic------------14 Henry--------------------

I don't think I've omitted others by mistake, but certainly Stanley Matthews was unlucky as Finney was more versatile for squad 1 then I've gone with Figo plus some other versatile players in squad 2 (even though the starting line-up has 2 players playing more as typical wingers compared to squad 1). Rummenigge was similarly unlucky really as he was neither an outright scorer or an outright creator. I would have liked to have squeezed in Nandor Hidegkuti and/or Raymond Kopa. Kopa's team-mate, the prolific Just Fontaine, would be another close call as would Gary Lineker for a similar front-running/goal poaching role (went with the muti-talented strikers though).

Ok, if the time machine was ready for the South American squad (hopefully no undeliberate omissions this time - I know that a few more old-timers would be put in by some):

1) Ulbaldo Fillol (Argentina)
2) Cafu (Brazil)
3) Nilton Santos (Brazil)
4) Elias Figueroa (Chile)
5) Fernando Redondo (Argentina)
6) Daniel Passarella (Argentina)
7) Garrincha (Brazil)
8) Diego Maradona (Argentina)
9) Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina)
10) Pele (Brazil)
11) Lionel Messi (Argentina)
12) Carlos Alberto (Brazil)
13) Ronaldo (Brazil)
14) Didi (Brazil)
15) Obdulio Varela (Uruguay)
16) Jorginho (Brazil)
17) Ronaldinho (Brazil)
18) Domingos Da Guia (Brazil)
19) Mario Kempes (Argentina)
20) Zico (Brazil)
21) Gilmar (Brazil)
22) Romario (Brazil)
23) Ladislao Marzurkiewicz (Uruguay)

-------------------------------1 Fillol-----------------------------------

2 Cafu----------4 Figueroa----------6 Passarella---------3 N.Santos

---------------------------------5 Redondo----------------------------
-------7 Garrincha---------9 Di Stefano-------8 Maradona---------

-----------------13 Ronaldo---------10 Pele--------------------------

I've chosen a similar formation to the European one, but it might be in either sides interest to switch to something different. Having chosen the squads I'd hand over team matters to Tele Santana, Manuel Pellegrini and Cesar Menotti while the Europeans would be managed by Rinus Michels, Brian Clough and Michel Hidalgo.

If doing the test match series I'd think there would be varying results but each contienet might fare better on their own pitches overall. Maybe the South Americans would get better reults in Europe than vice versa and the Pele/Maradona/Di Stefano combination would click enough to take the series! Only maybe though and I'd not expect 100% SA victories at all. Perhaps something like 2 victories and a draw in SA and a win, a draw and a loss in Europe .

South American reserves (again hopefully no slips of the mind - Brazil are not famed for more defensive midfielders but I could have stuck one of their midfielders who were slightly more defence-based than Ardiles in there, but went with the highly positive approach):

1) Amadeo Carizzo (Argentina)
2) Djalma Santos (Brazil)
3) Roberto Carlos (Brazil)
4) Aldair (Brazil)
5) Jose Leandro Andrade (Uruguay)
6) Oscar Ruggeri (Argentina)
7) Jairzinho (Brazil)
8) Gerson (Brazil)
9) Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina)
10) Socrates (Brazil)
11) Roberto Rivelino (Brazil)
12) Leonidas (Brazil)
13) Tostao (Brazil)
14) Jose Manuel Moreno (Argentina)
15) Edmilson (Brazil)
16) Javier Zanetti (Argentina)
17) Rivaldo (Brazil)
18) Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina)
19) Claudio Caniggia (Argentina)
20) Silvio Marzolini (Argentina)
21) Roque Maspoli (Uruguay)
22) Kaka (Brazil)
23) Jose Luis Chilavert (Paraguay)

-------------------------------1 Carizzo--------------------------------

2 D.Santos---------4 Aldair----------6 Ruggeri-----------3 R.Carlos

-------------------5 J.Andrade-------8 Gerson--------------------

--7 Jairzinho---------------22 Kaka---------------------11 Rivelino----
------------------------------9 Batistuta--------------------------------

Peru has been unlucky to miss out completely for example, and Teofilo Cubillas could easily have been in there somewhere particularly.

With the same management teams in place as for the first squads then I'd be thinking SA might get a win, a draw and a loss at home this time and a win and two losses away vs the 2nd European squad. The formations would be different although the Europeans could easily drop Savicevic into the hole and push Figo and Dzajic further forwards (perhaps with Vieira or even Hagi taking Rivera's place in midfield to play more alongside Edwards).

Nice attempts.

Like you've said in the past (for example the Zico vs Laudrup thread), and I agree with you, the differences in talent and performances are often very small or not clearly noticeable. It makes it hard to really select a best 23 (probably I'd include Krol among the first 23 as well).

I think it would largely depend on where the game is played. If the game is played in South America then the likes of Garrincha, Maradona, Pelé, Passarella and arguably Ronaldo (cause he reached higher levels in the yellow shirt as for his clubs) will probably reach their best form.

A name I miss among the first 50 names though is Teofilo Cubillas. His omission is the one I noticed the most. Notable World Cup performer and also one of the Copa America legends I think.

Aha, I did overlook Falcao of Brazil (was thinking of other Brazilian alternatives to Ardiles). I think he'd have to get a place instead of Ardiles even though Ossie was in some respects (nicking the ball from the opposition, dribbling, stamina) better than Falcao.

As for the 2nd Euro squad I named - if a 4-2-3-1 was chosen then perhaps a pick from these deep-lying playmakers would replace Hagi in the squad and actually make the starting line-up:
Jozsef Boszik
Josef Masopust
Nils Liedholm
Luis Suarez Miramontes (initially more of an inside forward but never a really advanced player I think)
Kazimierz Deyna
Glenn Hoddle
(More solid options at top and more outright playmakers with attacking instincts at the bottom).

Yeah you're telling me (I often can't resist having an attempt at these things though!). Indeed hard and I agree on all points and especially that the differences are small and it would come down to a personal selection in a lot of instances. Krol could easily have been in squad 1 that's true as he could play all over the back line very well - he could even take Suurbier's place I suppose as a greater player although less of a specialist and I suppose less of an attacking outlet as a right back (like Thuram is hence why I put Suurbier in team 1).

Yeah, I didn't expect to leave out Cubilas considering he could be great as a support forward and also as an AM. Moreno is rated so high by most South Americans so I was convinced/compelled to put him at least in squad 2 and Caniggia could play as a winger wheras Cubillas wouldn't be so good in that role. Probably he should be in though. I don't know so much about what he did in Copa America's to be honest so any stories would be interesting.

Ah I said agreed on all points, but the one I think might be debateable is Ronaldo reaching highest levels in the yellow shirt (I'm thinking of course of his year at Barcelona).

Yeah maybe swap Krol with Lizarazu and then swap Krol with Suurbier (squad number and 1st team right back). Maldini could even play right back but he mainly played on the left. Having Krol in the squad does seem more correct though anyway - I didn't spend long on the squads to be honest.

I guess Puck that Krol might be favoured over Maldini as 1st choice left-back by yourself?

Tbh Krol would be great as a centre-back or libero (maybe that's why I was holding him back for squad 2 - squad 1 should take precedence though of course!).

Yes, his physical form was also at his best at Barcelona but my personal impression was that he showed more of his talents in a Brazilian shirt during the same 'prime' years. Better understanding with team mates, more fluid mobility and movement in sync with others (I mean: that also his team mates understood his movements and moved very fluid too) etc. Later on after his injuries his form for Brazil was also better I feel. Stats also show this I think. 62 goals (8PK) in 98 games and on top of that also 26 assists.
He had esp. not a lot of assists at the club level but anyway, no problem to disagree about this.

About Cubillas,

Cubillas played well at two World Cups (1970 and 1978, Peru didn't qualify for 1974) and was best player of Copa America in 1975, which Peru won and was the only CA tournament Cubillas played in. It made European newspapers (at least in the country I live).

Yeah no problem to have a rare disagreement but I see where you're coming from and don't even know if I do disagree . Some of his solo goals for Barcelona were pretty astonishing, although I know he did great in CA '97 too.

As for Cubillas I'm familiar with his World Cup exploits but should look into CA '75 then. I'm sure some South American posters can add some comments about that tournament.

Actually scrub those as Jean Tigana could pretty much double as a deep-lying playmaker and an energetic box to box player and after due consideration he'd take the number 18 shirt from Hagi and the starting place (effectively from Rivera) to allow a 4-2-3-1 to be played by European squad 2. I think that's the last of my adjustments to personel now though!

Jose Leandro Andrade in a similar role for the SA 2nd squad was a bit of a hard estimate but by all accounts (and very limited footage) he had the skill as well as defensive qualities to excel in such a role. With such limited evidence though, it's hard to say if I'd even put him in squad 1 or feel that overall he would drop out of the starting line-up for squad 2 if the more modern abilities of Falcao were to be preferred (Falcao and Gerson together could lack a bit of pace as well as solidity though so maybe I'd need Ardiles back , or Zizinho who is another that's quite hard to assess anyway but I assume was better in a fairly attacking role despite reportedly having a good all-round game). Jose Leandro Andrade could play as an attacking right back too (he played a similar role as old fashioned wing half I believe) but South America are well off in that area anyway and players such as Andrade's nephew Victor Rodriguez Andrade and Junior (who played as left-back to great effect) missed out on my squads.

Ahhh Schiaffino .
Erm ok he can take Caniggia's place in SA squad 2

And finally, after checking post 1 on the thread I'd probably replace Ruggeri with Santamaria based mainly on reputation (I have seen Santamaria playing for Real Madrid though). Ruggeri was a top marker and pure defender I'd say though (he did a good job on Lineker in '86 until John Barnes started putting in crosses near the end of the game!).

Thanks Puck - I appreciate you finding those so quick after the discussion
I've already watched the Brazil-Peru highlights and I'll come back to the others:
The run before the first goal (and assist by Cubillas) seems typical play by him and the free-kick was exceptional and he clearly had a good repertoire from set pieces (he scored a goal from a free-kick with the outside of the boot in a World Cup too).

I've already remembered about Schiaffino though so it might be a hard call to put in Cubillas even in squad 2 (could easily do so but another legend would have to miss out - I can't really make an informed choice out of him and Moreno though in all honesty but have seen some impressive albeit very short clips of the Argentine and his reputation is such that he's a hard omission I think; I know some would favour Cubillas over Kaka but I certainly rate mid-00's Kaka very highly indeed as I think you do too Puck to an extent - I don't think he ever played as well as Cubillas in Internationals probably but for AC Milan he was pretty phenomenol and wasn't even far away from squad 1 tbh). That said I don't think there's very much to choose between prime Kempes and prime Cubillas so it's, as said, really arguable in terms of filling these squads.

well here is my european teams (both are equally good in my opinion).

a very attacking formation so i have strong defenders and 2 players in midfield who have strong stamina and are very allround players. a suberb playmaker and a line of attackers wow. dzajic and best belong to the worlds best wingers. and van basten and muller need very few chances to score goals.
beckenbauer is the captian of this team.
squad 1 formation 3-2-1-4

goal : lev yashin
leftback : paolo maldini
sweeper : franz beckenbauer
rightback : danny mcgrain
DM right : johan neeskens
DM left : marco tardelli
playmaker : michel platini
leftwinger : dragan dzajic
rightwinger : george best
left striker : marco van basten
right striker : gerd muller

squad 2 no wingers so i chooce for backs who could defend well but also where good at coming up and giving the desicive pass.
cruyff is the captian of this team

formation 4-4-2

goal : dino zoff
leftback : ruud krol
sweeper : geatano scirea
central defender : bobby moore
rigthback : manfred kaltz/wim suurbier (both equally good)
DM : frank rijkaard
AM left : mario coluna (he just edged out gunther netzer but the difference is small between them)
AM right : bobby charlton
playmaker : johan cruyff
left striker : ferenc puskas
right striker : eusebio

my south american formations. both also equally good again first formation with wingers the second with great upcoming backs.
squad 1
formation 3-3-4
goal : mazurkiewicz
leftback : silvio marzolini
rightback : jorginho
sweeper : passarella
DM : toninho cerezo
DM : luis monti
playmaker : zico
leftwinger : felix lousteau
rightwinger : garincha
striker : ronaldo
second striker : pele

squad 2
formation 4-4-2
goal : ubaldo fillol
leftback : nilton santos
rightback : carlos alberto
central defender : domingos da guia
central defender : elias figueroa
DM : roberto falcao
DM : fernando redondo
AM left : roberto rivelinho
AM right : alfredo di stefano
left striker : diego maradona
right striker : lionel messi

maybe in this last formation leave messi out and make di stefano right striker and socrates as rightside attacking midfielder.