Are you suggesting he was strictly a supporting role or a failure at his various clubs...? I'd have thought the only one that really sticks out in that respect would have been his time at Internazionale. Ajax, Samp, Real Madrid, Milan... he seems to have done well at all of these.
I have to agree. Seedorf was never the main star (neither was Cocu ofc), but a starter and important part for many different (succesful) teams.
I don't say he was a failure but that his versatility worked against him at times, combined with consistency and reliability (if he accepted his role that is). Actually, his form at Internazionale was good I think. Both at Madrid and Milan he was used to fill in gaps. I would say that he performed a vital role in the Milan team at that day as a 'multi-way' player (was a good complement to Pirlo, Gatusso, Ambrosini, Kaka). Some tend to rate him quite high (including club coaches) while others rate him low (including national team coaches). On dbscalcio he is rated low, also in the season when he was included in UEFA all star teams and elected best midfielder of the champions league (when he was already past physical prime btw). Said also in some other threads that ratings can be quite harsh on a player. How objective and neutral are the raters? In my opinion, no surprise, some players like Maldini, Mendieta or even Redondo (as example) are overly glorified. Overall I think Seedorf is rated about right; I punish him harsh for his NT career. Cocu is nationally rated higher by many because of his NT form and versatility. At 1998WC he played as striker and scored goals+assists in that role. He had also a nice Indian Summer of his career at PSV and a very good 04/05 CL campaign with some important goals as well. Although he won less, I'd say that Cocu was more important at Barcelona. He was in some seasons among the highest scorers among his club as player with defensive duties with only forwards scoring more (Rivaldo etc.).
Agreed. Although I would argue that he quickly became a key player for Samp, hence why Real quickly snatched him up.
Also have to say that I never really understood the high transfer sums for which Seedorf was traded. At that time (say 1996-2002) it was quite high for a midfielder (who did not score a lot either).
That sounds a bit like injustice to me punishing a player for not playing in the local league/NT and therfore not rating him how he might deserve it in his homecountry. (see Stielike or Schuster) Afterall Seedorf was seen to be good enough to be a starter for 3 diffrent clubs over 13 full seasons who were arguably the best in Europe for some of the time. Cocu has 6 for FCB. That cant be a coincidence. Seedorf ratings are good but not great for milan, I could find any for Cocu.
Disagree, someone like Rijkaard has rightly an extra badge on his resume for what he meant for his home country. Which ultimately also helps in creating future generations of players (also by contributing well for NT; NT is extra important without a good club league). As Bogarde of all people remarked, that final in Vienna was tremendously important for the careers of many players AND the fate of the national team. And who was a jigsaw in that puzzle? Rijkaard indeed. [how ironic that I vouched for Milan back then and was upset by that late goal] It can be objected that Seedorf played under incompetent national team coaches (except Hiddink), thanks to insufficient revenues. In case of Stielike (but this is off subject) I'd say that he was even in his own country seen as a dirty player. He had also not a nice style on the ball, it looked quite ugly for a libero. There was a general discrepancy with how Stielike was rated inside Spain and in the rest of Europe (and you can't say that he came from an unknown country), Raul Gonzalez is another good example (who I rate quite high to be frank). Schuster was always a guarantee for a lot of drama and headaches for his coaches and of course that should be punished. Also unlucky to catch that knee injury.
Cocu held the record for most club appearances as a foreigner, that is also a sign. Many drowned in Barcelona, until recently at least, after a few seasons (that is another remarkable thing, it is nowadays seen as the ideal club to be). Barcelona actually offered him a contract extension but he declined. You can google that if you don't believe me. It is strange that he is rated so low while club coaches applauded him and was transferred for so much money as 'pure' midfielder (but as said, I felt he was overrated). Plus those all star team selections in some lowly rated seasons. Said that ratings are sometimes harsh and I'd say that racism (latent in Italy) and bias against small nations (no hype machine like others) might have a part. Also heard rumors/stories that Moggi/Calciopoli even had raters under control. Though, an opposite Dutch case also exists. Bryan Roy is rated high in early 90s and his stats, esp. assists, were also great (among best single season EPL assisters all-time). Strange, because he was always a bit overlooked in the Netherlands, even while playing at Ajax. Seedorf at least had a section of big fans although during his peak many outright hated him, for his missing of PKs (against wishes of coach) and other things.
Are they really low? We don't have Cocu's so they are quite useless for comparison with him. I dont believe the racism part excellent ratings for Thuram or Davids for example. I wasnt aware of Cocu's apperance record.
To illustrate that I don't talk BS: look at Ballon d'Or rankings (he got one second place vote in 1979, 4 points; one fifth place vote in 1981, one point - that's all). Also never mentioned in Onze Mundial teams. Large discrepancy with how he was rated inside Spain (four times foreign player of the year, in some seasons with considerable distance). Opposite case is Littbarski who was criticized and not mentioned in 'kicker rangliste' (not even 'national class' or 'broader circle' rating) while scoring career high 17 Bundesliga goals without a single PK. Some about this is also posted on this board. Though, an average rating of 3.30 is roughly the same as what 'international class' Phillip Lahm reveived. Was nevertheless still ignored and castigated. Compared with awards yes. In his first Milan season he was included in UEFA team of the year (2002) and for next year, after winning CL, shortlisted for various other things. For some pundits it was a simple equation, he was a vital element/piece in the machine leading to success. Juventus And no, I don't fantasize that those ratings became possibly a bit corrupted (assuming that it never had an role). Some others have also mentioned that here on this board I think. Phone taps did the trick. That is fine. Can also accept that I have a different opinion as some others. Like I said, found Redondo often overrated (what kind of goal output did he have btw? is everything based on that backheel?) and Raul under-appreciated in many respects (luckily, 'El Salvador' agreed with me at that time ).
This doesn't really tell us anything other than that the Spanish league not being of very high quality/highly rated at that time. Unless there was any foreigner who played in La Liga ahead of Stielike? Look at the list of foreigners back then, he had hardly any competition. Yeah might be right he got quite some ESM Team of the Month (9, Cocu has <3 I think it's even 0) votes too. But is it low compared to Cocu that's the question? I fail to understand...? Seedorf played for AC Milan not for Padova or Lecce. Isn't the dbscalcio rating based on the average of several magazines? I've seen a lot of things mentioned on this boards, but how about some evidence?
Ballon d'Or 1979: Simonsen, Krankl 1980: Schuster, Arconada (Spaniard) 1981: Schuster, Arconada 1982: Schuster Also mentioned Littbarski example Is that anywhere published? Those votes? Well, when you mentioned the ratings (said some things before your post about it in post #53) my 'message' was more intended to point at discrepancies and caveats. Like you say, we don't know about Cocu. We do know that he was in his first Barca season a great scorer, had the appearance record for foreigner (until Messi broke it), gained in a turbulent period of the club (then it is easy to kick out the foreigners and cherish your locals), and Barca wanted to extend his contract and not even at a lower wage. Know that some disagree but in all honesty I do see performance for NT as major sign. Really, I do not lie, Cocu was a very consistent and important too (think now about that shot on the crossbar vs Portugal in his last cap at 2006WC). When he broke through he also faced tough competition. He took the spot of Ronald de Boer around 1997-1998, who was relegated to the sides. As you perhaps know (based on Ballon d'Or between 1994 and 1998) De Boer was back then viewed as one of the elite midfielders (also played as CF). Cocu was well rated in early 90s too while playing for minnow Vitesse, see thread I created. Can post original photocopy if you insist. It is hard to make a general statement but it is safe to say that Cocu is widely appreciated while Seedorf still has (though less as in late 90s and early 00s) some haters. NT has a big role (can accept that you see that as flawed). Agree, Milan was also part of the 'conspiracy' though Seedorf was not a poster boy (unlike Maldini, Nesta etc.), a board and fan favorite. Anyhow, raised 'racism' theory because Seedorf was various times confronted with it (already in 2001). Seedorf is a proud person and complained about it. Not every press-voice appreciated that. This is also not very subtle. "Willy wonka, willy wonka" http://forum.acmilan-online.com/showpost.php?p=312419&postcount=728 Good question. Now you raise it I start to doubt again. Do you know it? In favour of Seedorf, have to say that I was impressed last season with the class he showed against Barcelona at his old age. At times he did really well in holding possessions and bringing the game/ball forward. Let I put it this way: he 'survived' against them and wasn't eaten alive by the tiki-taka machine.
Interesting. Reasons? National Team? Both Don Balon and Mundo (before you tell me that they are corrupted both are based in Barcelona and FCB players won the awards all three years prior to Stielike) thought Stielike was the best foreigner based on game ratings in the LEAGUE. Actually I 'd trust local sources more when comparing players from their league, than some random European journalists who might have seen the players in questions playing twice all season. (Look at how Van Hangeem and Neeskens are rated in their country according to all Dutch posters so far and how they are rated by other Europeans) What exactly are you looking for? The teams are all published. Who voted for whom only for some seasons. I do understand that Cocu is higher rated than Seedorf in the Netherlands based on that. Afterall NT performance for their country is always higher valued in the country itself. It's quite obvious that there is racism among some supporters, no doubt. However writers giving out worse ratings inmagazines based on nationality/race? It was kind of a rhetorical question. Yes, it is I asked the guy who runs the website.
No, would not say those ratings are corrupted (not more than usual anyhow ). Certainly not after the transition that took place in Spain. What are your thoughts about him when you saw him play? Real Madrid reached with him late stages of European competitions, including one EC final (1981). One more in 1983, CWC. Was apparently still not sufficient to impress. Thoughts about Littbarski example? (same grade as someone like Lahm but castigated) Don't disagree but my point about discrepancy was related to this comment of you: Said that 'European press' generally rated Stielike different. Agree that Spanish view is more reliable. Van Hanegem is interesting. Seems that internet folks of nowadays help him. Look for example at how pesstatsdatabase (not run by Dutchies at all) turned him in sort of the super-midfielder. At WC1974 not as good as Neeskens but skill with ball was obvious to see. You mean this right? Or where else? https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/esm-team-of-the-month.1693535/ Interesting (again) to see some all-time greats mentioned fewer times as him. Including aforementioned Redondo (according to many top 10 DM all-time, I don't lie; I also rate Redondo higher as Seedorf, to state that very clearly but not that high). Also see it as sign of performing outside of comfort zone under various schemes, though in case of Seedorf it can be said that he showed it at three clubs at the peak of their powers, who all played different systems and philosophy. There was also a video on youtube (now blocked) that showed the passing range of Cocu, with great long balls. Unfortunately not so much included of that in this one. Did not say I was right. I can be wrong. Was a theory. Said that Italian journalists did not appreciate his attitude in this matter. Never heard of stories about what kind of status raters in Italy have and how they are approached by clubs? In particular Calciopoli. Personally believe that this might have happened based on phone conversations.
Other recent example is Sneijder vs Van der Vaart. Guess who is rated higher in the country? It is nonsensical because first one had higher peak (also for NT) but last one has more widespread approval. Haters have generally said that Sneijder is/was one-dimensional and a blind man without overview. Van der Vaart was amazing though before his injuries. Was seen as one of the biggest talents in the Europe/world, see awards. This has a few of his goals (IMO not a good selection). Another fine example as said is Bryan Roy. Good ratings and assist stats at Foggio and Forest, but not so at Ajax. Remarkably, he had some good moments with NT. Wikipedia page has only a few sentences. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Roy
Great arguments PuckVanHeel. About Seedorf's NT career, I'll be honest that it's important but I would not give the weight you gave about it (691 games; 604 clubs; 87 NT - NT only 12,6% of his entire career filled with titles). And I say that because I'm used to great players that had poor or almost nonexistical careers for the Brazilian NT like Ademir da Guia, Dirceu Lopes, Juninho Pernambucano, Alex (Palmeiras, Fenerbahce fame) and were still really impressive players. And his career was not that bad with his nomination to these awards: Dutch Talent of the Year (2): 1993, 1994 FIFA 100 UEFA Best Midfielder Award: 2006–07 FIFA Club World Cup Silver Ball (1): 2007 UEFA Team of the Year (2): 2002, 2007 Real Madrid Team of the Century: 2008 L'Equipe's all-time European Cup dream team. Cocu was really good, I know, your words (puck) prove this. But, I saw them both play, and Seedorf's CLUB career impressed me more. About the Sneijder VS Van der Vaart, Sneijder CLUB and NT careers are way better than VdV. I don't even know how this can be a contest, only blind fans would pick VdV.
1983-84 was a strange season for Littbarski. While he scored many goals, his form apparently was not that good. Here's a newspaper article on Pierre Littbarski's lack of form during most of the 1983-84 season (taken from "Kölnische Rundschau", 26 March 1984): Das traurige Genie Pierre Littbarskis schwierige Zeiten Es muss wohl zu den Regeln des Showgeschäfts gehören, denen ja der bezahlte Sport, namentlich der Fussball, auch unterliegt, dass die Fans gerade demjenigen, den sie besonders lieben, Fehltritte übler nehmen als anderen. Gnade vor Recht ist vom Publikum nicht zu erwarten, das weiß der Kölner Kick-Künstler Pierre Littbarski - über Jahre hinweg Alleinunterhalter im Dress mit dem springenden Geißbock - spätestens seit vergangenem Samstagnachmittag. Das Spiel gegen den VfB Stuttgart im Müngersdorferstadion war nicht einmal fünf Minuten alt, da vergab Littbarski die riesengroße Chance, die Seinen in Führung zu bringen, indem er einen Elfmeter derart kläglich schoss, dass der gegnerische Torwart Helmut Roleder kaum sonderliche Mühe hatte, den Ball abzufangen. Der FC-Spielführer hätte gut daran getan, nach diesem misslungenem Versuch auf der Stelle seine Auswechslung zu beantragen, doch weitere 70 Minuten gab er sich mit einer gewissen Gnadenlosigkeit gegenüber der eigenen Person derart der Lächerlichkeit preis, dass Trainer Hannes Löhr endlich ein Einsehen hatte und ihn vom Feld holte. Pfiffe begleiteten ihn auf die Bank, der spärliche Beifall drückte eher Mitleid aus. Die schwierigste Art, einen Elfmeter zu verwandeln, hatte sich Littbarski ausgesucht. "Zehn Stück hab' ich so schon reingetan," verteidigte er später seinen Fehlschuss. Eben, nur hier und heute klappen diese Dinge nicht mehr. Die Zeiten sind vorbei, da der kleine Berliner mit den krummen O-Beinen und den Tricks, die die Gesetze der Schwerkraft am Ball aufzuheben schienen, die Gegner reihenweise zum Narren hielt. "Ich mache alles kompliziert, wenn ich einfach spielen sollte," weiß der Profi. Sein Trainer drückt es ähnlich aus: "Er stellt zu hohe Ansprüche an sich selbst und meint, erst wieder der alte werden zu können, wenn er auch den vierten Gegenspieler umdribbelt." "Es war wohl richtig und nötig, dass der Trainer mich ausgewechselt hat," zeigte Littbarski Einsicht in seine anhaltende Formschwäche. "Seine Entwicklung ist tragisch und stimmt mich traurig," fügte Löhr hinzu. Ist hier noch ein Fussballexzentriker des rechten Flügels auf dem Weg der Libudas und Abramcziks? 24 Jahre wird der kleine Berliner im nächsten Monat alt. Er wirkt manchmal altklug, dann wieder ratlos in der Krise, horcht wohl noch mehr als sonst in sich hinein. Der Charme des naiven, der die Leute zu Zeiten des tristen Fussballeintopfs mit seinem Genie in die Zauberwelt der Ballartisten und Jongleure entführte, ist dahin. Der CDU-Politiker Dr. Bernhard Worms, Oppositionschef im nordrhein-westfälischen Landtag und Mitglied des Verwaltungsrates des 1. FC Köln, empfahl kürzlich, Littbarski einfach sofort aus dem Verkehr zu ziehen und bis Saisonschluss zur Kräftigung der Nerven in Kur zu schicken. Ausgelacht hat man ihn, Praxisferne warf man ihm vor. Jetzt ist Löhr immerhin so weit dieser Überlegung gefolgt, dass er vorschlägt, dem Kicker einige Zeit sein zur Plage gewordenes Spiel- und Handwerkszeug, den Ball, vorzuenthalten. H.J.Weskamp.
Agree you can see it in both ways. Seedorf also did well in ESM team of the month selections (while he was not one of the main stars like schwuppe said), where he had equal/more representations as solid all-time names like Vieira (strong candidate for AT France team), Gerrard, Deco, Veron, Rui Costa, Giggs (who is according to many top 5 winger/side-midfielder all time). Mendieta, Redondo and Roy Keane have all also a solid all-time status (especially last two names) and fewer selections as him. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/esm-team-of-the-month.1693535/ It is also possible to point at how his arrival coincided with a renewed era of Milan successes (Dida and Nesta were acquired in the same season as him) and how that was noticed by coaches and pundits too. Also some things can be mentioned against him (which I did). Found in the meantime a link that discusses that Milan team and his role, with also a few good comments below I see. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/22/teams-of-the-decade-14-milan-2002-07/ IMO, he had in that team a multi-way role and his versatility allowed Ancelotti to shift tactics during games. Article describes him as #10 but he was usable in various midfield roles (as one of the comments say - he was anyway less of 'pure' playmaker or #10 as Rui Costa). In the quarter-final game against Ajax in the 02-03 season (Ajax crowd booed him btw) he had exactly that kind of linking role. Where did it all go wrong for the national team? It is this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_GFITeLkz4Y#t=302s Seedorf had until that point 6 goals (0PK) in 21 caps, a good ratio. In the 85th minute against Turkey (scoreline 0:0) receives Holland a PK. Cocu passes to Van Hooijdonk and he falls to the ground. Seedorf missed a year before at euro96 a PK against France in the quarter-final. Coach Hiddink ordered before this game that Jonk was the PK taker. But against the wishes, Seedorf (21 years and 0 months old at that time) took it and missed. He never completely recovered and his ratio dropped. Also clashed with later NT coaches. This Kluivert compilation (AT topscorer for NT) shows some assists though IIRC Cocu had as said until recently the appearance record for Barcelona as foreigner (Roberto Carlos has this for Real Madrid). Thanks to PDG1978 for mentioning this video to me
That is right, some even did not get a ranking including Krankl and Kempes. Others with fame had low rating as well (like Arnesen, who did well at Valencia). https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/la-liga-rankings-1975-93.1813986/ More remarkable is that the successes of Madrid in Europe did not translate in 'European' approval for Stielike (unlike Schuster, who is not well rated in Don Balon). Only few foreigners entered top 50 of Don Balon in those years, which is somehow strange because 1982WC squads showed quite some foreigners playing in Spain (compared with non-British players playing in England for example). Some others were signed based on 1982WC like Yanez of Chile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Chile 1982 WC saw: 17 foreigners playing in France (thanks to African colonies) 9 foreigners playing Spain 5 foreigners playing in Italy 5 foreigners playing in West-Germany 2 foreigners playing in England (excluding British nations) Included in top 50 Don Balon (when Stielike was #1 foreigner) 1979: 12 foreigners (mostly Argentinians) 1980: 9 foreigners 1981: 5 foreigners 1982: 4 foreigners Like in case of Seedorf, Bryan Roy there is also a inconsistency here with how Stielike was rated vs Schuster (inside Spain and outside Spain was totally opposite).
Thanks to longevity Seedorf was at the start of this Champions League season also among the top 10 assisters (1992-2012). Also Van Nistelrooy is listed, another one who often provoked mixed feelings in his home country.
This also fits here, it is in defence of Seedorf as well: http://www.sabotagetimes.com/footba...lland-became-the-brazil-of-european-football/
Feel that pre-war players are hard to rate. Personally feel that (will not surprise you ) Puck van Heel was perhaps the greatest. He was anyway the greatest star and contributed to popularizing the game (before him it can be said that it was still a little bit an elitist game). His club Feyenoord was before Cruyff surfaced also the biggest and most popular club in Holland, to some extent thanks to him. Of earlier times Harry Denis and Bok de Korver are known names. Of post-war 40s and 50s players obviously names like Frans de Munck, Cor van der Hart, Bram Appel, Kees Rijvers, Abe Lenstra and Faas Wilkes. I personally put Wilkes in the first team (based on what I read and how he was rated by players who played against him). Van der Hart and Appel played for French teams in 'Latin Cup' finals and were an integral part of them. Rijvers won personal accolades as a foreign player in France. But national team was despite high talent of some players/positions still in disarray as also foreign observers and coaches saw and noticed.
Interesting stats of Nistelrooy (never realized he racked up some good assists! Cna you share that link above?