Thought I'd draw this for you. Team looks legit to me. Cruyff first name on there by default, van Basten Rijkaard and Gullit are mandatory and Krol is their greatest defender, so half the team picks itself. From there, if you're going to pick three more players to make a 3 and a 3 in front of Rijkaard, then Neeskens, van Hanegem and Rensenbrink are the logical options for me, based on talent and suitable starting positions. The only one that can touch any of them for talent is Bergkamp (obviously well in a top 10 of Dutch players), but it's harder to squeeze him in the lineup positionally. Defensively, there's no comparable option than to play Rijkaard where you put him, and so you need a right sided defender and one more to play alongside Krol. I find there are very few great fullbacks from Holland. Suurbier walks into a right-sided role the best, but it's hard to find a left back other than Krol to allow him to guard the middle, so he belongs on the left. Centrally there are options with Stam and Koeman but I buy your point about Rinus Israel, he's more mobile and suited to a three man defence in a team playing total football. Keeper is an open discussion really. I'd have thought go for VDS but van Beveren seems the outstanding other candidate. Amazing how he was frozen out of the national team in favour of Jongbloed. Just thought I'd keep the discussion going by listing a few other names that may or may not be in contention for a second XI, or even first XI for some. Not saying these are what I'd put in, just putting it out there: van der Sar van Breukelen Jongbloed Graafland Koeman Stam F. de Boer van Bronckhorst Blind Hulshoff Rijsbergen Stevens van der Hart Davids Seedorf Robben Sneijder Overmars Rep Jansen Haan van der Kuijlen 2x van der Kerkhof brothers Keizer Moujlin Wilkes Puck van Heel Bergkamp RVP van Nistelrooy Lenstra Geels
Stevens doesn't belong there. I would take Van Tiggelen over him. Van Tiggelen was a fine left back with excellent dribbling skills and nicknamed 'the nail' for his frail posture but also his 'nail-precise' tackles. He punctured the ball so to speak. Very reliable. For his club Anderlecht he often played as central defender though (and was compared with Morten Olsen at times). I would use him as left-back if Krol is used as central defender. With regards to goalkeepers football historians tend to speak about a 'Big Six'. Those are: Just Göbel, Eddy Pieters Graafland, Frans de Munck, Jan van Beveren and Edwin van der Sar. We had also some more good ones: Hans van Breukelen (saved in 1988 some very important PKs), Ed de Goey, Theo Snelders, Piet Schrijvers, Gejus van der Meulen (dirty nazi!), Piet Kraak, Wim Landman, Edward Metgod, Eddy Treijtel. Those are the most notable ones but are seen as a tier below the 'big six', based on quality, longevity, prizes, caps and historic significance. Based on stats like caps, clean sheets and goals against I tend to go for Edwin van der Sar. Usually underrated but his stats match with the very best in history while he played for a small country with a not so great defense in front of him. Disagree with some other choices and comments like that Bergkamp is the only one who can touch them for talent but that is inevitable with someone who adores a German. I'll leave it at that.
I'm busy with collecting them. I agree that this one is among the better ones. Like every 'award' it is still not flawless (how sports are rated over the years also varies) but it is compared with the other major ones quite balanced (in my opinion). Btw, as babaorum said, Senna was in France just as popular as Prost. For 1989 this was the top 10: 1. Lemond (cycling) 2. Becker (tennis) 3. Graf (tennis) 4. Prost (autoracing) 5. Van Basten (football) and Kingdom (athletics) 7. Sotomayor (athletics) 8. Tyson (boxing) 9. Svan (cross country skiing) 10. Schneider (alpine skiing) Indeed, it lists males and females alike. What connects Senna with this list/thread is of course the year 1988, when Senna won his first title and Van Basten led his country to the european championship. Both were not listed among the top 10, it was an Olympic year of course: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 1. Griffith-Joyner (athletics) 2. Otto (swimming) 3. Graf (tennis) 4. Biondi (swimming) 5. Bubka (athletics) 6. Lewis (athletics) 7. Louganis (diving) 8. Tyson (boxing) 9. Suleymanoglu (weight lifting) 10. Joyner-Kersee (athletics) Senna was certainly listed in some other years. 1986: not among first five 1987: missing list (i.e. I don't have this one) 1988: no F1 driver listed in top 10 - Senna his first championship 1989: Prost ahead of him (see above) 1990: 1st (like you said) - Senna his second championship 1991: 3rd (behind C. Lewis and M. Powell) - Senna his third championship 1992: Mansell ahead of him (on place three behind M. Jordan and C. Lewis) 1993: Prost ahead of him (behind Morceli, Linford Christie, M. Jordan, Indurain and Peyron) 1994: No F1 driver among first ten.
Yeah, you're right. Number six is Gejus van der Meulen (the fascist). In 'alternative' lists Van Breukelen is number six. The five I mentioned are placed in any list. Van Breukelen was rarely the unchallenged number one though. Snelders and Stanley Menzo in particular were his rivals.
Btw, the press agency AFP before 1980. Wikipedia does not go back before 1980 but (and this falls within this thread) in 1974 Muhammad Ali won the vote. It is the kind of the predecessor to that award. This was the result: 1. Muhammad Ali (boxing) 2. Johan Cruyff (football) 3. Franz Beckenbauer (football) 4. Emerson Fittipaldi (racing) 5. Jimmy Connors (tennis) 6. Filbert Bayi (athletics) 7. Eddy Merckx (cycling) 8. Tim Shaw (swimming) 9. Vassili Alexeiev (weight lifting) 10. Piero Gros (alpine skiing) [votes unknown] There was also another one that was seen as (more) prestigious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International_Athlete_of_the_Year_Award 1. Muhammad Ali (boxing) 173 points 2. Johan Cruyff (football) 147 points 3. Eddy Merckx (cycling) 117 4. Filbert Bayi (athletics) 100 5. Jimmy Connors (tennis) 99 6. Franz Beckenbauer (football) 66 7. Tim Shaw (swimming) 64 8. Emerson Fittipaldi (racing) 55 9. Vassili Alexeiev (weight lifting) 54 10. Brendan Foster (athletics) 37 I can also see the Associated Press poll. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press_Athlete_of_the_Year When only looking at the consulted European journalists, those preferred this order (also published in newspapers btw): 1. Ali 2. Beckenbauer 3. Connors 4. Cruyff [Reuters poll showed a similar result] Top three result of the AP poll (so with all journalists included) was: 1. Muhammed Ali (boxing) 162 2. Hank Aaron (baseball) 110 3. Lou Brock (baseball) 67
2 of those names i have concidered. those are : faas wilkes. he was a great great player a very good dribbler. but i find it difficult to give him a place in the team. the other one i have concidered is willy van der kuilen. all tiem topscorer of the dutch league. also did notplay much for the national team just like van beveren. so niot to commonly known outside of holland he was a real good player and goalscorer. if her where top be in the team he would be on cruyff's position and then cruyff would be the striker and van basten should be left out of the team. van der kuilen was a great nr. 10 he was totally 2 footed with a very good shot. keizer and moulijn will not make it when i play this formation. they where better wingers then rensebrink who was not a real winger. but i wanna play total football witht his team so players cosntantly switching and keizer and moulijn where strictly wingers and rensenbrink could swithc on and of with cruyff in this team. the same with gullit not a realw inger but with his talents he could play severla positions even in defense. just like almost all of the players can swithc with several others for example rijkaard and neeskens etc etc
That's fine, I expect you know far more than me, feel free to expand on this. I don't adore him or any other German! Just thought he has interesting hair. That and unfortunately using an English-related name just invites shitposting!
Player not mentioned here who can feature as left back is Frank de Boer. Very good player with fine ball skills and a pass. Also like Pearce (side back as well) a good free kick taker. Maybe a bit underrated nowadays, certainly compared with the overhyped Jaap Stam (IMO). According to Castrol/OPTA index by a distance the best Dutch player of 1998 World Cup (the real star Bergkamp was injured though). http://www.castrolfootball.com/legends/tournament/index.php?year=1998
Good work. I heard that F1 was really popular in France. Senna was well ranked on these lists and Schumacher deservedly won it 3 times. Now, I´m really curious about Pete Sampras and Michael Phelps ranking on these lists. In fact, I think Phelps should have won it in 2008. I noticed that Messi won it in 2011 (his best year so far IMO). He was the only football player that won the award in a non-WC year. I can agree with his victory, he was considerably ahead of any other player that year and won many titles on the club level. However, I´m curious about Ronaldo´s place on the 1997´s list , it was his best individual year, he was really ahead of other football contenders (Zidane and Bergkamp) that year. He lacked titles on the club level, but won Copa America and Confederations Cup on the national team level. For 98, I agree with Zidane´s victory, he was great in Juve and helped France won their only WC, that´s meaningful.
Good findings ... About F1, Senna in F1 was like a Garrincha of Football, a pure talent a non-political, a purist ... sportman that do not come often in a century! You should have watched Senna (national geographic bio video) if you did (ignore) or interested in! Alan Prost was a "crooked" in F1 and Senna was his "most feared" rival despite of they were team mates. Senna backed Prost to win his titles in some, while it was Senna's turn (situation) Prost used his experience to have "burned" the bridge and let Senna on his own choice to win. in other hand Prost was like a "Lance Armstrong" type .... Most F1 serious fan would love Senna for what he has done and given all to racing techniques and entertainment!
What about Cor Veldhoen? Could he be considered for a spot in a 23-man squad for all-time-dutch? I know that he is considered one of the best, if not the best, left-backs from Feyenoord's history.
That are a lot of questions. As said, lists like this are not flawless but it helps to reveal which sports were rated high and which athletes made an impact. Messi his win in 2011 (apart from the things you mention) was helped IMO by the fact that the world championships in athletics and swimming at that year had no athletes who were head and shoulders above the others. It heavily depends on the events and performances in a year. In the past world championships in athletics were held only once in every four years, for example. Club football received an upgrade through the years, cycling a downgrade it seems. To focus on Ronaldo: 1996: not among first two (Michael Johnson and Alexander Popov) 1997: not among first five (Bubka, M. Jordan, P. Sampras, W. Kipketer, M. Hingis) 1998: not among first five (Zidane, M. Jordan, El Guerrouj, Marion Jones, M. Doohan) 1999: not among first five (Agassi, M. Johnson, M. Greene, Lance Armstrong, El Guerrouj) I try to get it complete and will post it one day in the thread below. If someone wants to help that would be great. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-of-the-year-1980-2012.1981231/#post-27073041
Would be hard to find a place for him but he was definitely a good player from a skills point of view.
this. in a 23 person squad i still think there is no place for him. if krol isn't the leftback then probably frank de boer gets this spot.
Thanks for all these informations. I agree that LEquipe Champion of champions is not a flawless award. However, it´s still more balanced and informative than american awards (associated press and Sports Illustrated Sportman of the year, which almost only americans won). Now I´ll go to the other thread.
blind as a leftback ?? hmm. i would say van bronckhorst, van tiggelen, numan or lets not forget hugo hovenkamp
Blind played as leftback indeed and very well. Hovenkamp was also quite good (though unknown abroad who are quick to buy English hype products).
My 3 teams: 1st: ---------------------- Van der Sar -------------------- ------------------------- Koeman ---------------------- Suubier --------------- Rijkaard ---------------- Krol -------------- Neeskens -------- Van Hanegem ---- -------------------------- Cruyff --------------------- ------ Gullit-------------------------- Resenbrink --- ---------------------- Van Basten --------------------- 2nd: ---------------------- Van Beveren -------------------- ------------------------- Israel --------------------------- Wijnstekers ------------ Stam -------------- F. De Boer ----------------- Haan ------- Davids ----------------- ----------------------- Bergkamp ---------------------- ----- Wilkes -------------------------- Moulijn ------ ------------------ Van Nistelrooy -------------------- 3rd: This one I have the feeling that could be better. ---------------------- De Munck -------------------- ------------------------- Blind --------------------------- Van Aerle ---------- Van der Hart --- Van Bronckhorst ------------------------ Jansen ------------------------- ------------- Sneijder --------- Seedorf ------------ ----- Robben -------------------------- Keizer ------ ------------------------ Lenstra ------------------------
Overmars instead of Robben. Cocu instead of Seedorf. Van Tiggelen instead of Van Bronckhorst. Wouters, Ronald de Boer, Van Heel, Willy van de Kerkhof, Wim Jonk, Vanenburg, Henk Groot also makes sense to consider. I had Van der Hart in my first team though other options are also possible. Would place Hulshoff in third team.
- I wanted to place Overmars (He was one of my favorites as a kid, always bought him for my teams in W11 for ps1) in the team, but I always thought his stronger side was playing in the left, so I decided to place Robben (who plays this way for Bayern - he was a beast in the season Bayern lost to Internazionale), but If you say Overmars was as good in the right as in the left wing, I would easily place him instead of Robben. - Picked Van Bronckhorst more due to his versatality. To be honest I never read much about Van Tiggelen. - The only point I disagree is with Seedorf. Cocu was really good, but Seedorf was one of the players that really impressed me (during these years that I see football) for his versatility, personality on the field and class (passes, positioning - He still shows a little bit here in Brazil for Botafogo). So, I would stick with a more creative mid (sneijder - seedorf). More of a tactical option (I know that Cocu was a lot more representative/important to the National Team).
Never really liked Seedorf for his attitude. He was also not popular here because he left the 90s Ajax team as the first one, and he was sorely missed in the 95/96 season. Later on he also clashed with NT coaches and started to claim PK-taking against the decision of the coach, which he missed. I think in his case his versatility was a problem. He could play on any midfield position but coaches (more so the NT coaches) tended to use him where the team had a weak spot. Hiddink, Rijkaard etc. reasoned that they already had a few good attacking midfielders and central midfielders so they relegated him to positions where Holland was at their weakest and where he was obliged to play a strictly supporting role (instead of being one of the main stars). Though, at occasions when he was allowed to play as #10, he failed in my opinion (like at euro2004). Something similar, but to a lesser extent, also happened at his clubs. Milan had Kaka, Rui Costa and so on. Apart from the question who were the better football players, also in this case his versatility worked against him. On top of that, he did not score a lot (Cocu scored more and was also an 'utility player', even more so as Seedorf). But if he scored, it often resulted in great goals. [nutmeg and goal as #10 at 1:55]