Lucio is an unorthodox type of CB, imo. Sometimes he's out of position, disorganized the defensive line. But in his prime, he was very fast, strong, good technique and leadership. He was rated by Kicker 5 years in a row for Bundesliga XI, and also was rated with 3wc + 3 ic seasons. Enough to merit inclusion in the 2nd tier of brazilian CBs, imo.
I agree that Bregkamp used to be a "playmaker" at least 50% of his career time: (role for Netherland NT, and STYLE at Arsenal) Let me repeat one more time: "play maker" is a term to describe a certain type of player in Either ROLE (responsible) and/or STYLE (his characteristic imprint on the pitch) One might classify in details there are 3 types of playmaker thru out history: 1- CLASSIC playmaker: A player who OPERATES from midfield with the ROLE (specified by coach) and his STYLE to do so. What they do? (IN ORDER) - Control and dictate the tempo - Distribute pass and maintain the possession for the team - Create chances in attack and link up with forwards in scoring - Help the defense Example: Zizinho, Didi, Rivelino, Moreno, Gerson, Hagi Laudrup Zidane,Rui Costa Riquelme 2- Attacking Playmaker: A player who has FREE ROLE to operate frommidfield to danger zone, (either as FW or CAM ) hold a responsible to (in ORDER) - Create chances and scoring goals for team - Provide passing and ball distribution - Control and dictate tempo - Control and dictate tempo when necessary - Defense in needs Example: Di Stefano, Puskas, Pele, Cruijff, Platini, Zico, Maradona, Overath ... 3- Modern Playmaker A player who could be FW, winger, or CAM who share roles with another CM to help dictate and control MF. Responsible in ORDER: - Create chances in attack and scoring goals - Link up with midfield maintaining possession - less defensive task Overath, Gullit, Boby Charlton, G.Best, Baggio, Totti, Bergkamp, Figo, Cantona, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka. Ozil, Sneijder, Neymar, Modric, Silva, ==================================================== This a "GREY area" now aday, as people (media) would label any player who has or can "create chances for attack = playmaker! Hence some consider Cecs Iniesta , Mata, Carzola, Essein... Lampard, Gerrard as playmaker !!! and some POPPED up with a new term Deep lying playmaker : from Redondo, Rijkaard, Mathauss ... to ... Xavi Pirlo Yaya Toure or even Xabi Alonso Vieira GOSH they confuse between ROLE and STYLE: A traditional player should have STYLE and get the ROLE to do so. - Style: Del Piero, Mata Carzola,Oscar, Zola, Rooney ... looks like the can be a "playmaker" but it just their style , NOT necessary they can hold that ROLE nor the coach allows them !!! - Role: in the past, Aimar Mendieta, Nedved ,Ballack, Gerrard Robinho Denilson ... are "granted" the ROLE of playmaker, but they did not have STYLE to complete such role for their team!
Ok, here I can understand better your point about our discussion about Puskás, although I not completely agree, but I think you're referring more to a particular quality than a main role on the pitch. In these terms even Matthias Sammer was clearly a playmaker, but he's not at the same group than Zinedine Zidane or Michael Laudrup in a positional analysis, but between sweepers/defensive midfielders. The same for Puskás, Bergkamp or Baggio, who I'd rate mainly as forwards despite his playmaking abilities. Apart of that, according to your own terms I definitely rate to Zizinho and Moreno as attacking-playmakers, not classics.
This is my version. http://xtralegend.blogspot.com/2013/05/brazil-national-team.html Glavisted's rating is similar to mine. There are only twice clear difference I would share is ; I see Edinho is among the toughest Brazilian central defender ever. His career with Udinese is seen to be one of the most successful Brazilian defenders to ever play in Italian Series A. DBScalcio rate him 6.53, 6.41 and 6.48 between 1982 and 1985. Even the rating could be questionable for its accuracy but it is the best representative of players' performance in the whole season and Edinho's rating in above-mentioned period is in the same level as the likes of Gentile. In reliability of defending task which is the most important factor in defenders' quality, Lucio should be below Edinho. The most surprise rating is place of Zinho which is ranked higher than Eder and Edu. Zinho is a consistency attacker with impressive basic skillful player but he didn't even establish himself among the top Brazilian players in his generation although his Brazilian candidates level is far inferior to the 50s and 60s.
My Brazil All-Time Squad: B-Team (out of the options their website gave me): B-Team looks a bit unbalanced, as it does not have a proper Defensive-Midfielder (both Falcao and Gerson were CM's, rather than DM's). And I had to improvise Carlos Alberto Torres as a CB to make room for Cafu in the RB position and also because the options they give for CB position weren't really that great.
In no particular order: Top 5 Brazilian CM's (mid 1950's onwards) - Didi, Gerson, Ademir da Guia, Falcao & Toninho Cerezo. Top 6 Brazilian AM's (mid 1950's onwards) - Rivellino, Dirceu Lopes, Zico, Socrates, Rivaldo & Ronaldinho. Top 5 Brazilian Strikers (mid 1950's onwards) - Reinaldo, Roberto Dinamite, Careca, Romario & Ronaldo.
Haha! I haven't posted here since mid-2014, mate. How are you? Of course I didn't see Domingos da Guia play, but I didn't see Pele either Domingos is widely regarded as the greatest CB ever for Brazil, I cannot just ignore that fact. Anyway, I don't know why I included Domingos, since I don't usually include pre-50's players. Perhaps I should keep to my criteria and just put Luis Pereira in his place. I agree it's full of oldies, but those are the ones that have legendary status in Brazil (player for player, position for position, Brazil '58-62 is regarded as the most powerful squad ever assembled in Brazil). I guess most players would necessarily have to come from that Golden Age of Brazilian football. Anyway, what would your team look like, @giles varley ?
Nice to see you posting again mate. Im fine thank you...i wasnt being critical of your team if it seemed like i was .. i would just like to know as a brazilian what your team would be from the players you saw a lot of...?? It would also be great if you could post some of your opinions on my tele santana thread !!
Thanks! And no worries, mate... I gotcha. Not even my grandfather saw Domingos da Guia play, although he did see all the other guys (he's 80). Well, I would have to think a bit more, but out of the ones I saw (considering I was born in 1987), my Brazil Dream-Team would probably look something like this: Taffarel - Cafu - Aldair - Lucio (not so sure) - Roberto Carlos - Dunga - Cesar Sampaio - Ronaldinho - Rivaldo - Ronaldo - Romario This "Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Romario" attacking quartet almost became real in 2002. How menacing would that be? What do you think?
I thought you were older than me but i ve got 14 years on you ! I was never a fan of Dunga although he was a decent player. Cesar sampaio - i know he was at his best with palmeiras..how come he didnt make the 1994 squad when he was seen as one of the best defensive mids in brazil at the time ? In my team I would have falcao and cerezo in their place.. Its hard to argue with that front four of rivaldo, ronaldinho, ronaldo and romario . It would have been great to see in 2002 . its also a shame we didnt see romario in 1998. Choosing an all time brazil team is almost impossible.. do we select players on ability or success ? .. for example i prefered jorginho and leandro to cafu as they were more technical in my opinion.
No, I'm 28, mate! haha I'm not the biggest fan of Dunga's football style either, but every team needs a DM. Even Barcelona have a destroyer (Busquets) - so I had to pick him to do the dirty work and allow the other talents to shine. As for Cesar Sampaio, he was a great DM - in 1993/94 he was peaking with Palmeiras (in fact, the whole team was peaking in those years) - the funny thing is that Mazinho got picked to play that WC'94 in Sampaio's place, whilst with Palmeiras, Mazinho was moved to the Right-Back position to make room for Sampaio to be in the midfield. Sampaio is a much bigger name for Palmeiras than Mazinho. I'm not really sure of the reasons why Sampaio was not taken in 1994 - I guess it was simply manager's personal preference: he already had Mauro Silva and Dunga as DM's (although I have no doubt Sampaio was much more technical than both of them). Anyway, I'm sure if I think about it a bit more, I might change 2 or 3 names in that squad. I can probably leave Cesar Sampaio as the sole DM (in Dunga's place) and add in another CM. I'm aware you're a fan of the 82'squad. Would you only add Falcao and Cerezo to that squad? I dont' believe it! haha And, yes, I agree... choosing an all-time Brazil squad is tough. Probably the hardest of every all-time squad one can attempt to create. I agree it's difficult to choose what criteria to go for. would you go for a player that had an amazing peak, but didn't last too long or would you go for a less magnificent peak, but with more longevity and consistency playing at high level? I try to balance all those factors and I also take into account resume. It does not seem fair to completely overlook a player's career achievements. It's a combination of factors, really...
Perhaps it could look like this as well: Taffarel - Cafu - Aldair - Lucio - Roberto Carlos - Cesar Sampaio - Ze Roberto - Ronaldinho - Rivaldo - Ronald0 - Romario It doesn't get much different than that, really.
Well, i think the '82 midfield is the best you ever had .. Cerezo and falcao would definitely be in my midfield because they could both defend and attack..
Hmm... kind of. I still think it was a bit risky, none of the two were true DM's, they were both CM's. They weren't that solid defensively. That's actually one of the main points people make when criticizing that team - it was too offensive minded (although I don't fully agree with it). Still I think it's good to have at least one DM - more than that, it's necessary. It gives the team more balance - behind every successful team, there's a watch dog to guard the midfield and do the dirty work. He doesn't necessarily have to be a poorly technical player - look at Frank Rijkaard. But anyway. what about the rest? What about your GK, CB's, RB, LB, Forwards? One can argue that was the best midfield Brazil has ever had, but you wouldn't change a single piece there? I think I would at least replace Cerezo for Didi and Socrates for Rivellino - and I'd keep Zico and Falcao. But, yeah, at the end, those are all 1st tier names anyway.
It wasnt risky !! That midfield was not to blame for losing... i find it hard to judge Didi because of the era he played in and from the footage i've seen. I can't select players that i only really know from books and anecdotes. My team would be a kind of 4-5-1 with cerezo and falcao playing deep then probably zico, rivaldo and Ronaldinho with Ronaldo or Romario as the forward.. But then i ve left out Pele !!
My ideal team is: Taffarel - Nelinho, Aldair, Júlio César, Junior - Socrates, Falcao, Cerezo, Zico - Eder, Romário. Subs - Leao, Carlos, Leandro, Edinho, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Dunga, Mauro Silva, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Careca. Coach - Telé Santana The first World Cup I' ve ever seen was Argentina 1978, so it's from 1978.
With all Brazil’s popularity and success over the years, one might expect to see little agreement on an all-time eleven. In fact there seems to be more agreement than for any other country. Sifting through numerous all-time Brazilian teams from a variety of sources (and excluding for the moment the “best-I-have-seen” selections) the position appears to be something like this: GK: Gilmar. Unanimous. RB: Djalma Santos or Carlos Alberto. With a touch more support for the former. LB: Nilton Santos. Comfortably the most popular choice, though Roberto Carlos has his followers. CB: Domingos da Guia. Fairly unanimous. CB: There is no agreement at all on Domingos’s partner. No one candidate would receive 20% of the vote; perhaps not even 10%. Luis Pereira might claim a narrow lead but it is certainly arguable. DM: This is the problematic position. Some selectors outside South America favour Falcao. Brazilian experts say this was not his role and that he was insufficiently defensive to occupy such a position in an all-time eleven. When Cerezo is offered as an alternative, the Brazilians come back with the same response. Dunga divides opinion wildly both inside and outside Brazil. That leaves Zito and Danilo Alvim. Zito is yet another of the late 1950s/early 1960s generation that looks set to dominate this team. Danilo Alvim, perhaps the most suitable choice, was a member of the 1949-50 side that may have been further ahead of its contemporaries than any since, but which has not been treated kindly by history. The 5 creative/attacking players. With the passing of time, these places appear increasingly to be set in stone: Pele, Garrincha, Didi, Zico, Ronaldo. Of course others draw support, but not enough to dislodge any of these five. Zizinho, like Danilo Alvim, is unfairly associated with a World Cup failure that for some reason is regarded as less glorious than that of Zico, Falcao and company 32 years later. Was he really a lesser player than Didi? Admittedly Didi’s deeper role gives the all-time team additional balance. But so would Rivelino’s left foot. As noted, the combination is heavily weighted towards the late 1950s/early 1960s. If Zito plays DM and Mauro Ramos or Bellini CB, there could be eight representatives from this era. And only the mature Pele from the “best ever” 1970 team. Is this justified? One further question, perhaps for another thread. If Brazil’s all-time eleven produces the most agreement, which national all-time selection would generate the least? My bet would be England.
I think one of the problem with playing Garrincha is that by definition there's a right-winger in the team, but there isn't a left-winger, or even anyone who's comfortable on the left because Pele, Zico, and Ronaldo all play down the middle.
Brazil's all time XI definitely has the most unanimous choices. Argentina, France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Spain also to be fair have maybe only 3-4 contested spots each, or less. England though as you say is at the other end. I can only think of Bobby Moore, Stanley Matthews and Bobby Charlton that would certainly be in the XI, perhaps Tom Finney too.