That's a point I haven't studied yet and therefore I haven't done yet all-time squads for clubs. Taking into account only the player's contribution to their major club I'm still not sure if Palermo should be ahead of Varallo, this last reached apparently higher peaks in 1931, 1932 and 1935.
Palermo won multiple Libertdores, tons of league titles, scored more than Varallo, won and Intercontinental Cup scoring and performing great against the best European team at the time, Real Madrid, amongst other things.
Moreno is seen as a top tier alltime great yet there were two players on the same position from the same country who were good enough to take away his NT spot? Explantion?
Interesting thread. It's nice to know about those pre-1960s players. Outside South America, most of them are the unknown quantity. Here's my Argentina XI: ---------------- Fillol ------------- Passarella J Zanetti --- Ruggeri --- Marzolini ---------------- Rattin - Moreno - Kempes - Maradona ------- Batistuta --- Labruna A few years ago, I made an XI with Monti, Redondo and Ardiles in midfield behind Di Stefano. This time I've decided to focus more on players who played for Argentina only, played at World Cups and use a more attacking line-up. I'll add Messi if he does well at WC 2014. Still not convinced with his Argentine performances although I've heard that he is playing better under Sabella.
The main reason is that Moreno played two seasons in Mexico during mid 40s and in that era, it doesn't common selecting players for the NT playing overseas. Other reason is that Moreno peak was in early 40s. But in mid 40s was still good enough to being among the most capped insiders with the likes of Martino (IL) and Mendez (IR) who peaked in that era.
But that corresponds to a collective profile, not about an individual performance. Varallo played fewer games and has a better goal average (0.87 goals per game) than Palermo (0.58 goals per game) with Boca Juniors, in 1933 he was the top goalscorer of South America and also was part of an historic attacking line alongside Roberto Cherro and Delfín Benítez Cáceres.
I've added to José María Minella as 8th between the central midfielders in my positional rankings in my blog.
I think that the likes of Redondo, Cambiasso and especially Marangoni could be placed in CM category (if Simeone is, the other can be too) btw, like i said in other side. The likes of G.Martino, Zumelzu, Trobbiani and J.Basualdo don't make a significant impact at intl. level to be highly rated, imho.
I think these 3 players could be in both categories easily but share closer characteristics to the main defensive midfielder I've enlisted. I don't think they're highly rated in those positions. Who would you consider better to the central midfielder position?
How about Enrique, not a great player, but won the WC, CL and Intercontinental in 86? Another option is Pedrito Troglio.
I think the best 11 would be GK - Fillol CB - Ruggeri or Ayala CB - Passarella RB - Zanetti LB- Sorin Defensive Mid fielder - Simone Left mid fielder/winger - Burruchaga Right mid fielder/winger - Caniggia Attacking mid fielder/supporting striker - Me AKA Maradona Left CF - Messi Right CF - Di Stefano Any thoughts? EDIT River Gaucho helped me remember Sorin
My god you so are right, I couldn;t think of Juan Poblo Sorin at the time, as if I did I would have put him there but otherwise no change now
Too biased to recent players, in any case, Redondo, Rossi, Mascherano or Ratin are better than Simeone, and ahead of Burruchaga are Bertoni, Babington or Mas.
I think Veron is very much underrated. People remember him failing at Man U. and at the 2002 World Cup but from 2000-2002 he was top 5 or even top 3 players in the world, IMO. After that he was still a regular starter in very good Inter teams and even won a Libertadores toward the end of his career. I'd rate him higher.
Yes it was collective. Palermo was part of arguably the best Boca team team ever under Bianchi. it’s true. And as mentioned he beat Vaallo’s record of goals and he won more important titles. And he continued to score a ton even after Biachi was gone and continued to win titles with Basile If we praise Pele and others for winning and scoring a lot while being in excellent teams why is Palermo an exception? And in terms of individual performances Palermo was also excellent in many Boca matches and clasicos.
Well Messi is 3 goals away from matching Maradonas total goal scoring for Argentina and 4 goals away from matching Crespos'. Of course it doesn’t match the importance of Maradona’s goals but he’s close to being Argentina’s 2nd top scorer of all time behind Batistuta. In that formation I’d put him instead of Kempes. Ruggeri over Ayala is also hard imo. But Rugerri won the cup and was runner up so I guess it’s worthwhile but Ayala was more consistent imo over his career.
Kempes 6goals at WC78 (the very first WC for Argentina ) were > 30+ gaols of Messi (against friendlies) Same with Maradona 8goals WC. and Batistuta 10goals WC level ...
You completely missed my point but that’s not surprising. Why is Best considered one of the best ever despite doing nothing in a WC. Or Di Stefano for that matter. Messi’s careeer aside from the WC has been much better than Kempes. Kempes scoring a few goals in a WC filled with controversy does not surpass the overall seasons Messii has had. And I already said Maradona’s goals were much more important.
I guess we all got misunderstood each other point... It's NOT all about WC but all about "important games" for Argentina NT. At least Di Stefano won a copa and Kempes won a Wc for their country = Messi enjoyed scoring in friendlies and lacked of "big goals' when needed - until now ... that's the POINT Kempes had similar 20/43 (if not better) GPG for Argentina than Messi (31/76). Plus 6 out of his 20 = 30% were VERY IMPORTANT (while Messi only ot 2,3 out of 31 << 10% were important). Bottom line, I don;t care if Messi (or any others) scored 12goals in friendly but a Kempes (or Maradona/Batistuta) 6goals at WC or Copa OK? Look do not mix up Messi with Barca season (vs Kempes at his clubs), as this thread is all about ARGENTINA !!!
If Messi wins WC 2014, I will take Kempes out. I feel that Kempes is underrated when discussing the Argentine greats. The likes of Labruna, Moreno and Pedernera didn't get enough recognition outside of South America but at least Kempes tested himself among the world's best and he was great in 1978. With the plethora of choices in attack, even the likes of Caniggia and Bertoni can't get in.
So Higuain is better than Messi and Ronaldo combined? Messi + Ronaldo = 3 world cup goals Higuain = 4 world cup goals
I dont know much about controversy but its still only conspiracy without proof. Peru even hit the post when the game was still 0-0. Kempes performance did lift the team big time. He also had an assist in the final and one of the goal at group stage also came from his powerful freekick deflected. 1966 WC also had controvery, the same with 2002 and 2010 had lots of ridiculous reffereing. Kempes was 2 x top scorer in Argentina league, 2 x top scorer in Spanish league, top scorer in World cup. He was Valencia top scorer in 5 different seasons. Kempes in his prime scored 85 goals in 107 matches for Rosario and almost 100 goals in 142 matches for Valencia. His scoring ratio is as good as Bati. He's under achiever when it comes to team thropy just like Roberto Baggio. But he's scoring at World cup knockout stage and scoring both goals in copa del rey final victory against Real madrid. He's underated because La liga wasnt as popular as today and he's not playing for those 2 giants nor for Boca or River.
It's amazing when posters in this forum ignore Kempes in the all-70s team, his performance at WC78 was incredible, he also played well at WC74, and like you note, a legend for Valencia (the third biggest side in Spain).