Here's a comparison of the activity of the All Rocks Managers for EPL season 2011-2012. Teams highlighted in bold and orange font have indicated they will not return next year. Teams highlighted in bold and red font had low trades and/or long periods of inactivity where the teams were on autopilot - same squad and captain and only difference was auto subs. Only one of the teams highlighted in bold and red has so far indicated an intent to continue - Pittsadelphia. His team was on autopilot from GW 11-36 which was not an example of a manager who committed to stay active. Below the activity data is what the beginnings of the 2012-2013 All Rocks Leagues should look like. # Trades Last Trade Team Inactive Small Rocks 41 37 Vegas Virgins 39 37 ColdDogSoup FC 24 37 Rockville Gunners 28 38 Glorydaze FC 52 38 Sasha Juniors 40 38 blech_dawgs 32 37 FC Springfield 29 32 London St. Germain (Withdrew) 33 38 FC St. Pauli 34 38 FC Touchline Ban 30 37 ThiKu Mariners 26 30 In Off The Post (Withdrew) 43 36 Aviators 1 37 Pittsadelphia FC GW11-36 12 22 Pork Soda (Withdrew) Some use of bench 21 26 Park Lane GW 30-38 15 38 Dynamo Teso 31 36 ChrisSuttonsSlippers 16 38 Top Shelf 19 26 Kopite Juniors Some use of bench 17 21 Yellowcake Phantoms GW21-38 18 31 Ram It In There! GW24-30; 31-38 19 38 FC Weymouth 15 31 Lees Summit Rangers 59 38 BiggerBoat 2 7 Cassville United 27 GW 7-38 46 38 Jedi Padawans 19 36 wewunwunce 6 24 352 Sizzle GW 24-38; 9-23 36 38 Denocmuppet 64 37 Keyser Soze Wanderers 2 16 AC Tig GW 19-38 Surreywood Rangers Three managers in Small Rocks and VSR have withdrawn for the 2012-2013 season. Those openings and when factoring in the INACTIVE managers, lead me to the following provisional league alignments. Note that I still moved FC Weymouth and Lees Summit Rangers to Dust because 1) they were relegated, and 2) If we have a Dust League it would be nice to have a couple of teams whose managers have All Rocks draft league experience. Managers who have expressed an intent to continue have ITC after their name. Small Rocks (All managers have indicated an intent to continue) Vegas Virgins ITC ColdDogSoup FC, ITC Rockville Gunners, ITC Glorydaze FC, ITC Sasha Juniors, ITC blech_dawgs, ITC FC St. Pauli, ITC (Promoted from VSR) FC Touchline Ban, ITC (Promoted from VSR) VSR ThiKu Mariners Aviators ITC Dynamo Teso (Promotion from Sand ChrisSuttonsSlippers (Promotion from Sand Top Shelf (Promotion from Sand ITC) Kopite Juniors (Promotion from Sand ITC) Yellowcake Phantoms (Original Member, previously very active; needs to commit again to stay active) FC Springfield ITC (Relegated from SR) Sand BiggerBoat, ITC (Promoted from Dust) Jedi Padawans, ITC (Promoted from Dust) wewunwunce (Promoted from Dust) Denocmuppet (Promoted from Dust) Keyser Soze Wanderers (Promoted from Dust) Park Lane (Relegated from VSR) 2 openings 1 spot requested by a friend of Scott's who posted in our thread. Dust FC Weymouth (Relegated from Sand; ITC) Lees Summit Rangers (Relegated from Sand; ITC) 6 openings Yellowcake Phantoms had a long period of inactivity this year. Jay has mentioned to me that life got in the way and he may withdraw for next year. However, as an original member and one who has been active for many seasons, he deserves the benefit of the doubt should he post he would like to continue and commits to be active next year. If Yellowcake Phantoms does not continue, then BiggerBoat would be offered that slot in VSR. If we are unable to recruit some new managers who vow to stay active, we will have to consider going with three leagues next year with maybe adjusting the size of the leagues. In that case, FC Weymouth and Lees Summit Rangers would be in Sand.
"1 spot requested by a friend of Scott's who posted in our thread." So this is a new member who has never played in our leagues? I understand I was relegated but I'm having a hard time wondering why a new person should automatically jump to Sand. It's bad enough knowing the 4th and 5th place teams from Dust were promoted. Obviously, I'll do whatever you guys decide because I love playing in the leagues but I think any new person should always have to start in Dust
Agreed. There is no rule that allows a new manager to get a spot in anything but the lowest league. With the current list of teams coming back clearly the two teams relegated to Dust would move up to fill the Sand openings while the new guy would be the first member of Dust (assuming we find 7 more to fill our that league). However, I think there is an argument that team Ram It in There did enough and has prior history to suggest that they get another chance if they would like to continue especially if Yellowcake Phantoms is invited back. So that would mean one less open Sand spot and leave Lee Summit Rangers plus the new guy in Dust.
Motion thirded. I also motion that while I am all for Inactive Managers be invited back ( we all have life get in the way occasionally.... well except for me cause I don't have one ) that I think they should, at best be in the same league as they were the year before.... remember that old "cornerstone of a good Draft League etc etc. To come 5th or 6th in a league, be inactive, and still be promoted is a bit rich and smacks of "jobs for the boys"..... has the moustache twirling started already ??
I have not responded yet about next year, so I shouldn't have an ITC next to my name. I may join the 2011-12 exodus, but unlike others I wanted to get a few weeks past the season to think about it. I have some different wrinkles to my thinking than some of the others, but it ultimately comes down to the amount of time that I'm spending doing this and the enjoyment I get from it and the various other obligations, activities, and goals that I have going on in "real" life. I can only say that the decision I would have made a week ago Tuesday would have been completely different than the decision I would have made the subsequent Thursday, so very undecided and it is definitely possible that yet another spot will open up. With the caveat that I may depart, I nonetheless offer my opinions and thoughts on some of the issues being discussed: - I think we have the ranking correct for upgrades. 6th in the higher league should be ranked above 1st in the lower league joining via promotion. I would continue to frown against a double level jump, and would even preclude it as discussed below. - I would give some consideration to drawing a line, perhaps at the 4th place team, and not allowing teams below the line to be promoted, even if there are additional vacancies above. This is a very rare year with some many owners retiring and/or taking a leave, so this won't come up often, but just as I wouldn't allow a team to jump two divisions, I wouldn't allow a team in 5th or 6th to get promoted. If you didn't finish in the top half of your league, you stay where you are (if you're not relegated). Note: The consequence of this is that it could well mean that there are vacancies to be filled by new teams that, by random draw of the new teams, would have them slotting in above existing franchises. Typically, this would only be in Sand, but it looks like this policy might give a golden ticket to a team or two to slip into VSR this year due to all of the retirements. I'll concede it's a little out of the box, but I'm not feeling any sympathy for the 5th or 6th place team that doesn't get promoted and am willing to take a chance that a newbie is comparably competitive, or perhaps more so. Something to think about.
"The consequence of this is that it could well mean that there are vacancies to be filled by new teams that, by random draw of the new teams, would have them slotting in above existing franchises" If this is meant to stir me up.... excellent work cause you almost had me there.. I was about to blow a gasket If it was not meant to stir me up..... I am without speech ... surely you jest
Of course the fact that this would move you to VSR is not having any impact on your opinion on this issue, right? I'd say if they are good enough to be invited back then the same rules should apply to them as any other team. I also think Blech's idea is crazy. Randomly giving new players spots in the higher leagues makes no sense, is unfair to managers that worked their way up the table, and just makes it more likely that more leagues will end up with uneven drafts and inactive managers. No thanks.
As blech said, it is an unusual year for managers withdrawing, retiring, or being inactive. One way or another we will be creating new precedents for next year. Possible Precedent #1: Relegation always has meant relegation to the next lower league except in Dust where there is no lower league. If the "relegated" teams from Dust were active and wanted to play the next year, they were invited back. Now the issue likely will come up that the two relegated teams from Sand might be allowed to stay in Sand or else we set another precedent. Possible Precedent #2: New teams have always started in our bottom league, currently Dust, in the order they made their commitment known in these threads. If we keep Relegation means relegation, then 2-3 spots in Sand might be open to newcomers. Possible Precedent #3: We have never double promoted anyone before. Yet, this year, with all the vacancies, we will likely have to face that with a promoted team or two from Dust. When I put together the likely league alignments, I knew I was going to have to go against precedent. My thinking was geared toward us still having 4 leagues. I thought it was important to have an experienced, active All Rocks manager in the Dust League to help with its draft and answer the many questions that get raised by newcomers. Is that idea more important than having new managers start at the bottom of our leagues? Probably not. So now I favor having the two relegated teams from Sand fill the apparent open slots in Sand. In this scenario, if we have 4 leagues next year, we'll have a league of all newcomers. Or course, in our first year and when we expanded from 2 to 4 leagues, we had some leagues of all newcomers. I suggest that, if we have 4 leagues, we have an experienced manager to help them with the Dust Draft and to help suggest how to handle the situations that arise during the season. As far as the Double Promotion precedent being broken, I don't have a problem with that with so many vacancies because they aren't going over anyone but the relegated teams and they were active and did have the high scores in their league. Possible Precedent #4: It has been suggested that we set a new precedent and draw some line and never promote someone who didn't finish in the Top half of a league. Without doing research, I think we've crossed that line before. Our promotion/relegation has been based on the following algorithm: First - Promote the top two teams from the lower division to spots 7 and 8 in Small Rocks and spots 5 and 6 in the other next higher divisions. Second - Relegate the bottom two teams from the upper division to spots 7 and 8 in the next lower division. (Relegated teams, except in the Dust League, are not allowed to stay in the league, even after adjustments based on step 5) Third - Do not relegate the bottom two teams from the lowest division. If they want to continue, they may start the next season still in the lowest league. Fourth - Move the 3-6th place teams to spots 1-4 for the next season. In Small Rocks, the top 6 teams retain their positions. Fifth - When retirement or inactive manager vacancies are determined, adjust the leagues by moving managers up from the positions established above. Up until this year, this meant we never had a double jump of divisions. So what. Sixth - Add newly recruited managers to the open spots filling the highest open spot with the first manager who indicated a desire to join our leagues in our Intent To Continue Thread and continuing in order of expressing interest. Seventh - When we do our final commitment thread before the season, fill in any vacancies that occur between the ITC thread in May and the Final Commitment thread in July in the same order as the 5th rule above.
No one likes a good algorithm as much as me and that looks like a mighty fine one. Based on that.... probably a good place to start is to work out the "Base Standings" and all other stuff can be worked out from there. So the 2012-2013 Leagues would be as follows.... if NO ONE dropped out and NO ONE was declared inactive.... Small Rocks: 1 VegasVirgins Craig Powell 2 ColdDogSoup FC Lobo Mojo 3 Rockville Gunners Chuck Cannon 4 Glorydaze fC Paul Richards 5 Sasha Juniors Thomas Johnson 6 blechs dawgs Blech Blech 7 FC St. Pauli Scott King 8 FC Touchline Ban E Sullivan Very Small Rocks 2011-2012 1 ThiKu Mariners Kurt Thiessen 2 In off the post Clan Blue 3 Aviators Sir Grandpa Hal 4 Pittsadelphia 5 Dynamo Teso Mike Wilson 6 ChrisSuttonsSlippers Fraser McInnes 7 FC Springfield Coach Wiggum 8London St. Germain Sand 2011-2012 1 Top_Shelf Dave Thomas 2 Kopite Juniors Chloe Adams 3 Yellowcake Phantoms Jay Jones 4 Ram It In There Ryan Gorman 5 Bigger Boat Paul O'Connor 6 Cassville United Jordan Vogt 7 Pork Soda Richard Powel 8 1800-UK.com Harry Hotspur Dust 2011-2012 1 Jedi Padawans Bob Shill 2 wewunwunce Ian Plant 3 352 Sizzle J Chizzo 4DenocmuppetDennis O'Connor 5 FC Weymouth Ryan Morrison 6 Lees Summit Rangers Mike Kuhn 7 KeyserSoze Wanderers 8 AC TIG Newcomers: Slot in here in "First come first served order" As a Manager drops out, or is deemed inactive (and does not say sorry and promises to never do it again) , everyone below that Manager moves up one. Flies in the face of my previous notion that no inactive team should get promoted but this seems the best objective way of doing things.
Again, I think every first time manager should start in Dust. Also, I think there's enough of us who know whats going on. If there were 8 new guys in Dust, I'm pretty sure we could all help out one way or another to get them up to speed.
I don't disagree that it is thinking outside the box (perhaps even a little crazy), although I don't know that it creates any greater likelihood of uneven drafts or inactivity. As noted, it is only because of a perfect storm of retirements that we are discussing this in VSR this year and this issue will generally only be reserved for Sand. It also would - in a more standard year - address Dr. Heckle's complaint about Sand 2012-13 just being Dust 2011-12 renamed, since it would (a) stop Sand 5&6 from moving up and (b) preclude Dust 5-6 from getting into Sand. If you just think about that scenario in a typical year in Sand, and with no offense intended to a team that finishes 5-6 in Dust, I think you are probably just as likely to have a vetted newcomer be as strong a competitor as Dust 5 or 6. I get that this has probably been handled differently before and I follow why you just have everyone start at the bottom, but it goes too far to say that it makes no sense to say that a 5 or 6 team doesn't get to move up. If they finished 5 or 6, what basis do they have complaining? By the same logic, if you're going to push all of the newcomers to Dust, then you surely have to let Sand 7&8 get re-promoted to Sand from their relegated position in Dust before allowing a newcomer to jump ahead of them. The relegated teams are at the bottom of the list, but unless booted due to inactivity, they should be just as entitled to benefit from mass exodus if the list gets to them by this same logic. I take it that I've struck a nerve, so I withdraw the suggestion from further discussion, but did think it was worth some mention.
The teams relegated from Sand aren't being allowed to stay in Sand. They got relegated but then moved right back up because of all the retirements and inactive teams. The exact same thing happened last season with Lee Summit Rangers. Relegated from Sand to Dust but moved back up due to positions opening up for the same reasons as this season. This team was also on the bubble due to inactivity but that did not change the decision to move them back into Sand. There is no new precedent needed and no need to change how we handle this situation. Am I missing something? No need to suddenly allow them to start in higher league since those spots will be filled by the relegated teams as seen above. Unless more teams drop out there is no need for any double promotion. In the past once a team was invited back they were put into the league using the same rules as applied to everybody else. Is there any reason to change this rule? I say no but obviously some disagree. Lets vote on it. If Ram It in There is invited back and wishes to continue, then there will be an existing team in Dust (Lees Summit Rangers, assuming that nobody else leaves and we get enough new managers to fill Dust) and since we've had all newbie leagues before I don't see any need to change rules even if that situation occurs. This situation isn't what is happening or what has been suggested. They'd be jumping teams that weren't relegated simply based on having more activity. That would be new rule and would need a vote. I vote no. That last part is not what we've done in the past as I pointed out above. Relegated teams have returned to their old league due to openings created by retiring or inactive managers.
Sorry but past history doesn't agree with you here. The lower leagues have always had more uneven drafts simply because they have managers with less experience at playing a draft version of FPL and less knowledge about the fantasy value of Prem players in a draft context. These league often have more than one or two inactive teams which is really rare in SR or VSR. SR had no inactive teams in 10/11 or 11/12. VSR had 1 inactive in 10/11 and 2 this season. Sand had 4 inactive in 10/11, 2 this season but another 4 that weren't much better. Dust had 2 in 10/11 and 3 this season with one team leaving mid season. Splinter had 6 inactive in 10/11. Well we have more people leaving than usual especially in the higher leagues but Dr. Heckle's complaint is a bit overblown. As things stand today, Sand will only have 5 players from Dust. Sure it sucks that so many got promoted from Dust but if you consider that VSR and Sand usually have half their members made up of new managers (2 relegated from above and 2 promoted from below) then next years Sand has almost as many new players from a Dr. Heckle perspective as you'd usually see if you didn't change leagues. Not the usual reward for promotion but not a disaster either since he is one step closer to the top and may have less inactive teams to deal with than last season. Agree on the first part. Relegated teams have moved back up into their old league in the past because of openings created by retiring or inactive teams. It makes no sense to change this and favor new players over them. On your last sentence, I didn't mean to make you think I was upset or you struck a nerve. You should feel free to state your views (no matter how crazy) and make suggestions. Most of mine get shot down so join the club.
After Hal's algorithm and Blech and Cannon's comments I can see some sanity in it all now (apart from the newbie in VSR thing but I will let that go ... for now...) Hal's simple method is an easy one to both understand and administer as there is no grey area. As Cannon says, if you are invited back... you are invited back.... and should be treated as such and maintain your place in the order of things and be promoted as far as the dropouts allow. My notion that all that are inactive should be banished (or treated poorly) was the wrong one and not well researched. I have only been here 5 minutes and after checking on the credentials of those I was dishing on, I noticed they have had long serving All Rocks experience and that treating then with proper respect should be the go. That being said, the same should apply across the whole All Rocks Leagues.. regardless if you have been here 5 minutes (me) or since the dawn of time. If the cards fall in a way that I jump from Dust to VSR then so be it. The fact it is never happened before, or that someone does not agree with a "double jump" should be irrelevant, and to pluck someone out of nowhere to slot into a league above... just to avoid the "double jump no no" is just a bit silly. ... especially when the argument is to hopefully get a newbie who is active. I may be a lot of things (shhh Blech).. but inactive is not one of those... maybe "too active for some tastes (shh again Blech)... Same applies to Morrison... he should be able to pop back into Sand if the dropouts above allow it...and looks as though he may even add some much needed activity to that League based on some of the promotees activity last season. Mr Morrison... if you are indeed reintroduced to Sand and I am still there I look forward to the tussle.... watch this Jedi fellow though; he is very sneaky As for a "rudderless" Dust League; I will be happy to help out there. I set up Splinters from scratch with 8 newbies and Dust last season was 5 newbies and 3 sophomores so I can assist where needed.
Nice to agree with Blech - for once. Lowly teams are not getting re-promoted, they're just escaping relegation. This should apply to all leagues; in that no team should leap-frog two leagues if there are still active teams ahead of them. A team being relegated from League A may go to the bottom of League B, but a team being promoted from League C should not leap-frog them. In effect, the newly promoted should slot in behind the ones relegated.
Base Standings Seedings for 2012-2013 Small Rocks Vegas Virgins ColdDogSoup FC Rockville Gunners Glorydaze FC Sasha Juniors blech_dawgs FC St. Pauli (Promoted from Very Small Rocks) FC Touchline Ban (Promoted from Very Small Rocks) Very Small Rocks ThiKu Mariners In Off The Post Aviators Pittsadelphia FC FC Springfield (Relegated from Small Rocks) London St. Germain (Relegated from Small Rocks) Dynamo Teso (Promoted from Sand) ChrisSuttonsSlippers (Promoted from Sand) Sand Top Shelf Kopite Juniors Yellowcake Phantoms Ram It In There! Pork Soda (Relegated from Very Small Rocks) Park Lane (Relegated from Very Small Rocks) BiggerBoat (Promoted from Dust) Cassville United 27 (Promoted from Dust) Dust Jedi Padawans wewunwunce Sizzle Denocmuppet Keyser Soze Wanderers AC Tig Surreywood Rangers FC Weymouth (Relegated from Sand) Lees Summit Rangers (Relegated from Sand) New Managers Join The Waiting List First come, first served.
Or we implement a three-up, three down; to reward the more active in each league. Small Rocks Vegas Virgins ColdDogSoup FC Rockville Gunners Glorydaze FC Sasha Juniors FC St. Pauli (Promoted from Very Small Rocks) FC Touchline Ban (Promoted from Very Small Rocks) ThiKu Mariners (Promoted from Very Small Rocks) Very Small Rocks In Off The Post Aviators blech_dawgs (Relegated from Small Rocks) FC Springfield (Relegated from Small Rocks) London St. Germain (Relegated from Small Rocks) Dynamo Teso (Promoted from Sand) ChrisSuttonsSlippers (Promoted from Sand) Top Shelf (Promoted from Sand) Sand Kopite Juniors Yellowcake Phantoms Pittsadelphia FC (Relegated from Very Small Rocks) Pork Soda (Relegated from Very Small Rocks) Park Lane (Relegated from Very Small Rocks) BiggerBoat (Promoted from Dust) Cassville United 27 (Promoted from Dust) Jedi Padawans (Promoted from Dust) Dust wewunwunce Sizzle Denocmuppet Keyser Soze Wanderers AC Tig Surreywood Rangers Ram It In There! (Relegated from Sand) FC Weymouth (Relegated from Sand) Lees Summit Rangers (Relegated from Sand) New Entries....
... Hahahaahaaaa... I love how you repped me then took it all back once you saw I was seeded above you... gold !!!... that was not intentional as I thought I was following the algorithm... maybe I need more training in algorithm following..
I thought Rep was reply (being next to Quote, as it is). Sill getting to grips with this 'new' forum on Big Soccer and not sure if I like it.
Not sure what you are supposed to do in a "Dead League" besides win it, but let me know and I will make sure to do it next time. And Dust was not all that much "deader" than both Sand and VSR if you look closely thanks to a few mid season dropouts... cough 1800..cough. As you may have missed in your hiatus, I am trying to get out of my "playing in a dead league" role of the last 2 seasons but can't get this foot off my head
Yeah it certainly made my Essay Length Rothman's Medal updates harder to do took me twice as long ... might have to trim them down next season (hey stop cheering)
Almost did it again.... Why isn't there a reply button on posts? Anyway.... don't trim the Rothman's Medal updates, make them longer.
