A pro/rel discussion

Are you trying to avoid my argument?

Listen, they know that people are interested in other leagues, in large part because of MLS alumni. It only makes sense to post scores from those leagues for a variety of reasons. Using this as a piece of evidence that they're primarily motivated by a desire to bring in Eurosnobs is displaying more than a little projection. They're motivated in part by several factors.

 

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He said the success of the "Summer of Soccer," in which more than 2 million fans watched almost 100 matches over the course of 51 days, is a prime example of how popular soccer is in the United States.

"It begins to show again how far the sport has come and the potential of what the sport can be," he said. "Clearly our continued goal and challenge is to continue to connect with all these fans, these people who really love the game, and convert them into being passionate and committed fans of their local MLS team."
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http://web.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20091116&content_id=7674580

Here we go from 2009 State of League address.

 

The fact that Garber isn't an idiot and tried to roll in the rather large number of events under MLS and SUM (which he has a big part in) doesn't really say a whole lot new. 2009 provided a unique opportunity to try to tie the large number of external events into the league. That's not always the case and wasn't nearly as much so in previous years. It also doesn't mean they're gunning for Eurosnobs to the exclusion of the other groups. In fact, they used the Summer of Soccer just as much to get in those other groups and even dedicated non-fans (since non-fans would have a hard time totally avoiding such a large number of events). They used the Summer of Soccer to cast as wide a net as possible.

 

And your point is? Even among the soccer fans that watch only FMF/EPL/LaLiga/Serie A/etc the "zOMG!!111!1 MLS doesn't have pro/rel??? They suck!!!" crowd is in the minority. As Timon noted here, the pool of people that are not tied to the Euro/Latin/Etc clubs and style of play is much larger than pool of fans that are attached.

 

That sounds much more like aiming at:

 

Well you can throw in all your opinion or argument, but addressing specifically on that for the state of the league speeach by Garber says it all.

 

Says what all? I'm not sure I understand what you just posted. It's gibberish.

As HailtotheKing said

 

...

 

about MLS primary market target and concentration being 'soccer fans in US who are not yet MLS fans'

If you are a soccer fan but not an MLS fan, what do you watch?

 

And the pool of soccer fans in US who are not yet MLS fans includes far more people that are part of group 2 than the Euro/Latin/etc snobs group.

 

Jesus. Are you really that far up the ass of the Euro/Latin bloc? Crawl out and you'll find a lot of people who are fans but aren't necessarily under the thrall of a foreign team.

In other words, what Yoshou said.

 

I am not going to quote any one person here. But a lot of the pro/rel discussion is how its done in Europe (and Latin America/Asia) vs. the US.

And then people mention that they like all the top clubs -AC MILAN, Chelsea, Man U, Barca, Real Madrid, Boca Jrs, etc, etc etc.

well my question is this - does the fact that one of those clubs might get relegated play into this decision at all?

I am an MLS and an EPL fan. I enjoy watching both leagues. However, I can tell you this much - I watch the EPL for the big players, big teams, and big names (and Americans).

I kinda watch the bottom of the table, but in the end, really don't care who finishes in the bottom 3 and gets relegated, nor do I care who gets promoted from the championship. Furthermore, I pay NO attention to the championship to see who might get promoted. I just notice the next year who the new teams are - and pay little attention to them.

I think I am in the majority, but would like to know- Most non english fans are fans of one of the big EPL clubs, and watch to see top notch soccer with the best players in the world. the pro/rel, or "relegation battles" honestly mean nothing to me, and make 0 effect on me watching.

 

Like hardcore Euro/Latin snobs(no matter what won't change) are small group, group 2 is also small group or overlaps with non-Euro/Latin snobs soccer fans who are not yet MLS fan. Note: not all soccer fans who watch EPL LaLiga UECL FMF are hardcore Euro/Latin snobs.

a) grew up with the game, but may have given it up later in life = not even really a current soccer fan.

b) play the game as adults but have no strong affinity for foreign clubs = very small group. In fact there are many examples of these in my team where I play. They once in a while talk about various national teams and other famous teams in Europe

c) primarily US National Team fans who have no strong foreign affinity = likey to watch/follow EPL or other foreign leagues(yanks abroad), I know many of these follow Fulham or Wigan etc.

d) people who plain old like soccer at all levels and are open to just about anything = likey to watch EPL, LaLiga, Serie A, UECL. If you are a soccer fan, isn't it natural to catch some of the highest level of soccer around?

 

But you are very much familiar with the pro/rel system itself, and understand and even appreciate the concept.

Since post #109 on page 11, that's was the primary point.

 

Dude, I and dozens (hundreds?) of thousands of other former high school and college players fall into this category.

They're a small group, buy you have many examples? What?

By the way, adult rec leagues (at least where I am in NE Ohio) are pretty huge.

I also fall into this category, along with tons of others.

But they don't have a strong affinity. They are not typically Eurosnobs.

My God, you're a self-selecting, blinkered one, aren't you. There are people who will watch ANYTHING from EPL to college to high school to lower and don't have a strong affinity and are thus not Eurosnobs. They're open to all. They don't turn their noses up just because a league has different rules.

 

Correct- I understand pro/rel as a European (non-american) way of sporting life.

it works in their leagues for football, rugby, basketball, darts, etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't work in the American way of franchise sports.

saying soccer needs it cause it's done elsewhere is a very shallow arguement.

That's my point.

 

So you are very familiar with it and understand what it is since you are a soccer fan.
You have your personal opinion that it's not suitable for MLS.

For our other discussion, the point and the fact is that soccer fans are very much familiar with it and understand it.

 

and like I said they are not even considered soccer fans.
right now we are talking about 'soccer fans who are not yet MLS fans if you recall.
you stop being soccer for whaever reason, you are not a fan.

if you recall again we are curretnly talking about 'soccer fans who are not yet MLS fans', so they are open minded and all, but careless about MLS for now. They are likely to watch EPL etc if they are open mined soccer fans.

again by definition, euro/latino snobs are people whose mind is set and won't change no matter what. If you are a soccer fan, it's very natural to catch highest level of that sport. Just because you do that, you are not a snob.

So.. what was the point... oh(starting from post #109 on page 11)...they would be very much familiar with pro/rel open system as soccer fans in US whom are primary marketing target by MLS.

 

I have bolded the key flaw in your arguement.

pro/rel is NOT about soccer.
any sports fan who follows any european sport knows about pro/rel. they have it in hockey, basketball, darts, lawn bowling, rugby, its how the SPORTING WORLD is over there

American sports are franchised- and do not have pro/rel.

I have yet to hear a compelling arguement for how pro/rel will fix american sports landscape. If it were so great and needed, why wouldn't Hockey, basketball, football, or baseball have adopted it years ago?

 

then please explain why having pro/rel would simply make them MLS fans?

 

Europe has pro/rel in other sports, too.
Japan has well established Baseball league and soccer league.
No pro/rel in baseball but pro/rel in soccer.

So what...

If you are a soccer fan, you understand it. If you are a rugby fan in Europe, you might understand it, too. If you are a soccer fan in US, you also understand it.

There's no flaw in my statement.

 

I never said that.

 

You are aware that Japan has had promotion/relegation in soccer for decades, right? They've been using it for far longer than J-league has been around.

I'm also going to completely disagree with your assertion that if you're a soccer fan you understand pro/rel. This might be true in the small number of Euro/Latin/etc soccer fans, but most of American/Canadian soccer fans don't have a clue what promotion/relegation is and couldn't care less if it is implemented or not.