6 reasons why Lemieux is better than Gretzky..Very interesting

For those of you who know hockey Lemieux and Gretzky are considered as the 2 greatest players ever or at least the 2 greatest in the last 30 years. Only Orr and Howe are mentioned with them.

I've always said Lemieux was better an Gretzky agreed with Orr when Orr said Lemieux is the most talented ever.

Here is an interesting take on why Lemieux is better so check it out:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...gretzky-six-reasons-why-66-is-greater-than-99

Absolutely, Super Mario was the best. The sky was the limit if he didn't suffer from such healthy issues. If i had to build a team around either Wayne or Mario...i would pick Mario. He was marvelous!!! Pits fans should be grateful that he was their leader and face of the franchise. A true inspiration to us all.

Well said my friend. That is why I'm not as much of a hockey fan as I used to be because I grew up watching Lemieux and Gretzky and I got SPOILED!

No doubt Ovechkin is great and Crosby is good to but overrated. However neither of them can compare to Super Mario. Look at how Mario dismantled the Soviets in Canada Cup 87 which are still considered 3 of the greatest hockey games EVER played!

Keep in mind he outperformed arguably the greatest hockey line ever, the KLM line and one of the greatest hockey players of all time in Sergei Makarov.

Add to that how Lemieux was on pace for a 310 pt. season the first 10 games into the 88-89 season and the fact he blew by and weaved through defenders like NO ONE ever has makes him the greatest EVER.

When ESPN did a promo in the late 80s about what it would take to score 100 goals in a season it was MARIO who did the promo, NOT Gretzky. Now THAT should tell you something!

i disagree with you guys. having watched both, i still believe gretzky was the best hockey player of all time. mario was tremendous and was easily the 2nd best hockey player to ever live but he was never on gretzky's level. from 1981 to 1986 gretzky was untouchable. nobody in the history of the NHL will ever have a 5 year period like that. 4 200 point seasons and he scored close to 400 goals! you can talk about who he played with all you want but the fact is that he performed like no other.

And it's not like Lemieux played with scrubs when he won his 2 cups. Hall of famers in Ron Francis, Bryan Trottier, Paul Coffey and soon to be Jagr. Plus Larry Murphy, Rick Tocchet, Joe Mullen, Mark Recchi and Kevin Stevens were all great at the time.

Sorry but you are not putting in proper context. Gretzky played on the greatest offensive team EVER full of hall of famers like Messier, Kurrri, Coffey, Fuhr, Lowe, etc.

AFTER Gretzky left the godly Oilers he didn't come NEAR 200 points or 90 goals and could only muster up 68 goals his first year in L.A. It was all downhill from there.

You forget that when Lemieux got his 200 point season(199) he was only playing with ONE hall of famer (Coffey) and many of the rest were a bunch of MINOR leaguers like Rob Brown who couldn't even stay in the NHL without Lemieux to feed him the puck!

Plus every Team Canada Lemieux was on Canada won gold including the 2002 Olympics and 87 Canada Cup but WITHOUT Lemieux and only Gretzky in 96 Canada lost to the USA in the World Cup.

Lemieux also scored more goals and assists in a season at 35 and older than Gretzky did which is an indicator of pure talent. Gretzky got his big numbers by playing on the greatest offensive team in NHL history while Lemieux got his mainly because he was SO talented he could make lesser players better.

By the way, in Gretzky's autobiography Gretzky agreed with Orr saying Lemieux is the most talented ever and could win scoring titles with a broken stick. In the preview for his Ultimate Gretzky DVD Gretzky again said Lemieux was more talented that he was.

Lemieux put up BIG numbers NO MATTER WHO he played with while Gretzky only did it with the Oliers and his output went WAY down after that.

Look at it again and you'll see Super Mario is the greatest offensive force to ever play the unique and beautiful game of Ice Hockey.

Mario had potential to be greater than Gretzky, but he wasn't.

You are mistaken. Lemieux did not have ANY of those players you mentioned when he had his 200 pt.(199) point season except for Coffey I think. He may not have even had him.

You take all those hall of famers away from Gretzky and the best he ever did was 168 points and that was his first year with the Kings and with a 70 goal scorer like Bernie Nicholls yet Gretzky still couldn't come close the numbers he put up in Edmonton.

It was all downhill for Gretzky from there on eventhough he played with a hall of famers like Brett Hull and Al Macinnis.

Lemieux scored 200 points(199) with a bunch of minor leaguers while Gretzky couldn't come close without the hall of famers he had in Edmonton.

Everytime Team Canada had Lemieux they won it all but without Lemieux they couldn't win in 96 eventhough Gretzky was there. Lemieux was there in 2002 when Team Canada won gold and did it without Gretzky but Gretzky couldn't do it without Lemieux.

There is NO DOUBT that Lemieux is the better player and the most talented player to ever lace 'em up like Orr said and Gretzky agreed!

I'm a bigger Gretzky fan myself. But it's almost a Pele/Maradona argument. Everyone wins...HURRAY!

Lemieux's the best player ever. I'm not baised.

Seriously though, if I had to take either Lemieux or Gretzky at the peak of their careers, I would choose Lemieux. His talent was unworldly. Sidney Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin can't even hold his jock strap.

They are both legends but if you're going to have to pick one it has to be Gretzky.

Lemieux was amazing and his come back from cancer is unquestionably one the best comebacks in sports history but Gretzky still comes up tops.

Gretzky isn't just the only person to gain over 200 pts in one season but he's grabbed that total over four times. His international record with Canada is one any player would kill for with grabbing three golds and two silvers in five tournaments. In '81 he had a cast of older veterans who were wore down from the season and on their last legs, he helped to carry that team (led the tourny in pts) into the match with the Russians where a tired Canada got whipped up on. The only other lack of gold was in '96 where Canada went up against the best US team ever assembled and wound up folding in the final 5 minutes of the final game to cough up 3 goals. You can't blame Gretz for that one, especially when he led the team in scoring.

As to team stats and overall careers within the N, Gretz has it all the way. Wayne like Mario stepped onto a team that had a good but not cup contending team. Mario did well for himself in his first four years but it wasn't untill guys like Stevens, Jagr, Recchi, Brown and Murphy amongst many others that helped carry him and the Penguins to titles. Wayne on the other hand may not of won a Cup right off the bat but he managed to grab four league MVP's from his rookie year and on. Also not to be over looked is that Oilers were an expansion team via the WHA in Gretz's rookie year, a year which he grabbed the MVP and scoring title. Mario needed the supporting cast to put him over the top with awards and cups and while Gretz also needed a better a supporting cast, it wasn't untill Wayne's third and fourth season's did the Oilers finally land guys like Messier, Kurri and Fuhr. Those guys brought the cup which anyone will agree is natural great teams win Cups not a great player, especially during those years in the NHL. Wayne managed to grab personal trophies from year one regardless of his supporting cast, Mario didn't grab trophies untill later on in his career. Aside from the Calder he didn't grab a Hart untill '88 that's four years after his rookie start and then gave it back to Wayne in '89. Wayne had the trophy from his rookie year and didn't give it up for eight years.

The cancer come back can't be argued, a true over the top story. However we can't forget that Wayne played half his career with bad back and still managed to rack up points while playing injured for a lot longer then most give him credit for. His time with the Kings was also memorable as took a team with little hope to the Cup finals. The majority of his time in LA, saw no consistency with the team as he had players and coaches shipped in and out but all along he managed to lead the team in scoring yet again proving that players win games but teams win cups.

Super Mario is the man but at the end of the day Wayne is THE MAN. He's done things that no one will again plus he did a ton of his damage inside smaller arena's and against more talented rosters. Mario had the chance to play against a weaker talent pool inside larger rinks. #99, it's hung from every rafter for a reason.

I'm not picking either, though both are all time greats. If you want to see real geniuses at work watch videos of the Soviet National Team.

When Sergei Makarov came in the NHL he was leading the league in scoring a few games in and that was when Lemieux and Gretzky were still scoring in bushels.

Many were shocked to see Makarov at the top since they were so used to seeing Lemieux or Gretz come out of the gate like gangbusters.

Russian teammate Igor Larionov said it's not as surprising because "Makarov is just as good as Lemieux and Gretzky". I'll never forget that quote.

If you look at the stuff Makarov did in the 1987 Canada Cup you'll see why his skill level is AHEAD of Gretzky and just about even with Lemieux. Some may make the case he is even a tad ahead of Lemieux as far as pure skill goes. He was just flat out AMAZING at times. Not to mention all the times he played in the Olympics and other international events.

Even the CBC announcer called Makarov "a wizard."

Makarov's only drawback was he was just too short which could be one reason why he never scored a ton of points in the NHL but he also came at a late age. If he was in the NHL at 23 then he probably would've contended for the scoring title with Lemieux and Gretzky.

Don't forget it was Markov's late entrance into the NHL and his standout season that caused the NHL to change the rookie of the year credentials to younger aged guys.

Markov was on an average Flames team... if he had a few other guys around him, he would of gained even more in the stats column.... wicked sniper when he was healthy.

It would've been fantastic if they could've somehow kept that world famous KLM line together in the NHL that won so many championships and gold medals.

Of course that would've been unfair to the rest of the league and very partial to the one team that got them.

But even if Makarov had some players like Kurri, Messier, or Coffey like Gretzky had in Edmonton or if he had someone like Jagr that Lemieux had in Pittsburgh then Makarov could've challenged Lemieux and Gretzky for the scoring title.

Makarov and Larionov did great in the NHL but Krutov was a total bust. They even made fun of him in Vancouver and called him doughboy or something because he was so fat. LOL!

Anybody who dares to extrapolate season stats based on the 1st 10 games of the season shows his naivete to say the least.
Gretzky was/is the Greatest. End of Story.

Orr had more assists one season then the next player had in total points. Scoring 46 goals as a defencemen in an era where getting 50 marked you as a superstar was an amazing accomplishment. However, comparing his point totals to either gretzky or lemiux is tainted by one important factor which all of you have missed. Each played in post expansion periods where the quality of the opposition was horrendous at times. Had Ovechkin played regularly against the kansas city scouts, or the oakland seals or the leafs of the first part of the 1980s, the capitals, the islanders, etc, etc, he would have scored just as many goals as gretzky. Insofar as pure talent goes, I would have to say Ovechkin is on par with lemiux and Orr, just a little better than gretzky. Gretzky was still in his prime when he left edmonton and never achieved the lofty heights again when he no longer had five hall of famers to pass the puck to all the time.

all time best:

Orr
Ovechkin
Howe
Lemieux
gretzky
Beliveau
Yakushev
P Statsny
Trottier
Messier
Crosby
Coffey
Lafleur

LOL! YOU are the naive one. Lemieux has the HIGHEST season totals ever if you adjust them accordingly. Lemieux is the best EVER. CASE CLOSED. Check out this link:

NHL Adjusted Point Totals

The Best Scoring Seasons in League History

In 1985-86, Wayne Gretzky scored an NHL record 215 points. The league averaged 21.1 points per game, making it one of the highest-scoring seasons in NHL history. If the statistics from other memorable scoring seasons are adjusted to the 1985-86 points-per-game standard and then extrapolated over 80 games, which was the length of the season in Gretzky’s record campaign, it not only helps put Gretzky’s dominance in perspective, it also sheds a light on some often overlooked efforts.

229 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1992-93
224 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1983-84
222 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1988-89
220 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1995-96
215 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1985-86
212 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1984-85
210 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1981-82
201 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1982-83
199 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1986-87
198 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1987-88
191 – Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1970-71
188 – Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1990-91
185 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1987-88
183 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1991-92
182 – Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1988-89
182 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 2000-01
179 – Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1973-74
178 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1989-90
175 – Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1995-96
174 – Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1970-71
174 – Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1971-72
171 – Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1968-69
171 - Jean Ratelle, New York Rangers, 1971-72
171 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1980-81
169 – Adam Oates, St. Louis Blues, 1990-91
167 – Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1998-99
165 – Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1989-90
163 – Steve Yzerman, Detroit Red Wings, 1988-89
162 – Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1969-70
162 – Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1996-97
160 – Bernie Nicholls, Los Angeles Kings, 1988-89
159 – Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1973-74
159 – Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1976-77
159 – Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1977-78
159 – Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1999-00
158 – Bryan Trottier, New York Islanders, 1978-79
157 – Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1972-73
157 – Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1979-80
155 – Gordie Howe, Detroit Red Wings, 1952-53
155 – Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1974-75
155 – Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1974-75
155 – Marcel Dionne, Los Angeles Kings, 1979-80


NHL Adjusted Point Totals: The Best Scoring Seasons in League History http://national-hockey-league-nhl.suite101.com/article.cfm/nhl_adjusted_point_totals#ixzz0bOYGrrLh

I agree. There is NO WAY Ovechkin is better than Lemieux and Howe better than Lemieux?? LOL!

Even HOWE himself will tell you that Lemieux is better. Bobby Orr alluded to the fact that Lemieux is the greatest player ever when he said something to the effect, "When it comes to PURE TALENT Mario could win scoring titles with a broken stick. He's just THAT good."

Gretzky agreed with Orr and Gretzky even said "Mario is more talented than me." in the Ultimate Gretzky DVD preview.

EVERYONE defers to Lemieux as the best and he IS! Mario is the greatest EVER!! CASE CLOSED!!

I am basing this on memory only, but wasn't Lafleur very average during his first few seasons? Crosby is a dominant player at 20, that is why I picked him over lafleur. His career has a long upside to it and he could eventually end up with amazing career totals.
When you look at these silly comparisons it seems the nhl did not exist prior to 1970. I should have put the rocket up there but forgot. I would like to see an impossible year where the nhl is reduced to 12 teams for three months, and then to 6 teams for three months. The managers get to pick their teams using a player draft. Then you guys will realize just how hard it was for players like Richard, Keon, Makita, Beliveau, connacher, Howe, delvechio etc to score. The bigger the league gets, the more diluted the play becomes, and despite the overal improvement in fitness and player size/speed, you seldom have a team with more than one decent line. Watching the old games you notice two things: one, the players don't skate as fast, but the puck moves quickly, from stick, to stick, they knew how to pass and knew how to move the puck without the mayhem we have now. If Howe played today he would dominate the way gretzky did.
Lemiux belongs up there, but I am not sure he is even better than Beliveau, a player who had to shoot at Glen Hall, Sawchuk, night after night. No bums playing goal net back then. Gretzky and Lemiux got their numbers facing the weakest nhl opposition in the history of the game, and the weakest goaltenders. How else would you explain the abundance of goals scored in the 1980s by bums like blaine stoughton and Rick Vaive who scored over 50 goals three years in a row for the leafs who were so bad back then they were almost as bad as the current team. So the offensive numbers don't tell the whole story when comparing eras and players in a team sport. How many cups did Lemieux win? How many did Beliveau win? Get the picture....i forgot, i forgot to include gilbert Perreault in this list, he was an amazing player, with moves that were similar to Lemiux's. Hard to pick the better player.

It was NOT the weakest opposition in the history of the game. You had 3 of the greatest defenseman EVER in Ray Borque, Paul Coffey, and Mark Howe.

You also had the greatest goalie ever in Patrick Roy. I know some would say Brodeur but Roy is right up there. Don't forget about Grant Fuhr and Tom Barasso. Barasso is still one of the greatest youth goaltenders EVER. He STILL holds records that this new better goalies according to you haven't touched.

There are other great goalies like Eddie Belfour and Greg Stefan.

Why don't realize the TRUTH that that era was just the greatest OFFENSIVE era ever as opposed to a weak defensive era?

For me the 1980s were the worst decade for the NHL. Yes, we have great players at the time, including the ones mentioned above, but there were so many lousy, horrible, worthless players on weak teams that did not belong in the NHL.
Even Orrs and Espos numbers were inflated because of the expansion to 12 teams, but at that time there were many good players in the American league. With the exception of the oakland seals and others, most new teams did quite well through the expansion drafts and available american league players. Ultimately, teams like philly and later New York Islanders thrived. But late in the 70s and then throughout the 80s, with so much expansion the dilution of play became evident. Gretzky could have an off night and still get 5 points.
The new goalie equip and clutch and grab play that made teams like new jersey and the canadians winners in the early 1990s served to bring about more and more emphasis on defence and even teams like the leafs got on board and were competetive for a while. The goalies were not better, just bigger. I would like to see Brodeur and others play net with equipment that dryden and parent wore every night and see if he still dominates in net.
Again, this is all relative, there is no way one can say Lemieux is much better than a player such as Bossy or lafleur or H Richard or Howe. In fact, that other player I picked from russia (Alexander Yakushev) was the best and scariest player i ever watched. In 1972 ;when that bastard skated down the wing with the puck you knew he was either going to score or make something happen. He got 7 goals in 8 games against the nhl's best team ever assembled. Nobody could move him off the puck. He had the hardest wrist shot I ever saw, and he had the most accurate slap shot I ever saw. If he played in the NHL he would have been the top forward for a decade.
Back to the 80s. The second best player of that decade was peter statsny but he hardly gets noticed. If you want to use that decade as your barometer for top players, than he should be right up there with gretzky ahead of all others.
Lemiux had amazing moves, just like many other players, but as I said before, his competition was weak, he did not face a hall of fame goalie every night.