2014 Amway Cdn. Championship sked released

Discussion in 'Toronto FC' started by atlanticTFCfan, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. atlanticTFCfan

    atlanticTFCfan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 14, 2007
    Sydney, Nova Scotia
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    And this time, it'll have five teams in it, including the NASL expansion team in Ottawa.

    Here's the kicker: they'll have to play FC Edmonton in a two-leg 'play-in' set to determine the fourth seed. Nice, huh?

    2014 Amway Canadian Championship schedule
    (home team listed first)

    23 April 2014
    Preliminary round - first leg
    Ottawa Fury FC v FC Edmonton

    30 April 2014
    Preliminary round - second leg
    FC Edmonton v Ottawa Fury FC

    7 May 2014
    Semi Final 1 - first leg
    Ottawa Fury FC/FC Edmonton v Montreal Impact

    Semi Final 2 - first leg
    Toronto FC v Vancouver Whitecaps FC

    14 May 2014
    Semi Final 1 - second leg
    Montreal Impact v Ottawa Fury FC/FC Edmonton

    Semi Final 2 - second leg
    Vancouver Whitecaps FC v Toronto FC

    28 May 2014
    Final - first leg*

    *this game will be played on 27 May if Vancouver Whitecaps FC plays at home.

    4 June 2014
    Final - second leg

    Once again this year the Amway Canadian Championship will be broadcast on Sportsnet.

    http://www.canadasoccer.com/2014-amway-canadian-championship-schedule-announced-p155637&t=championship_article
     
  2. scarborotfcfan

    May 26, 2008
    Nice, I like the play-in. Moving from three teams to five in a relatively short period of time, hopefully in a decade or so, this can be an eight-team tournament which would make it much more legitimate. Five is still much better than three though.
     
  3. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I made a suggestion on the Canada thread that I'll share here. The idea was to grow it to an 8 team tournament by including the three D3/D4 teams with the highest attendance from the previous year, so based on current figures we would add Victoria Highlanders FC, WSA Winnipeg and K-W United (all PDL clubs).
     
  4. atlanticTFCfan

    atlanticTFCfan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 14, 2007
    Sydney, Nova Scotia
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Hate to say this, but that suggestion is about as old as the tournament, dude. That idea has been floated around here a good number of times already, and it is something that you won't get any argument about from here.
     
  5. EvilTree

    EvilTree Member+

    Canadian S.C
    Canada
    Nov 20, 2007
    Frozen Swampland, Soviet Canuckistan
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    PDL clubs only play like 4 months in the summer, so scheduling issues
     
  6. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I track the attendance of Canadian PDL clubs quite closely using the USL website information. This is what I have for average attendances for the season that just ended (regular season only):

    Victoria 1637
    London 1146
    Thunder Bay 783
    KW 705*
    Ottawa 256
    Winnipeg 247
    Toronto 143
    Vancouver 81

    * This is based on only two reported attendances. Attendance numbers were missing for most games.

    So, assuming no CSL clubs beat Thunder Bay in attendance, it would be Victoria, London, and Thunder Bay.

    While I understand the motivation for picking teams by attendance, I don't really like it. If we wanted to include the lower tier teams, I think a better approach might be to include:

    1. The CSL champion.
    2. The western and eastern PDL teams with the best records. I realize this is awkward in some ways but it does spread the geographical representation around.

    The only way I can see lower tier teams making it financially is if there is some sort of help from the CSA.
     
  7. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Getting these lower tier team in the tournament sounds like a great idea, but the travel costs would be way too prohibitive for most of these teams. So the only way it would happen (as noted above) would be if CSA kicked in some money. Good luck with that happening. Or if there was enough corporate sponsorship. But based on those average attendance numbers, I can't imagine too many sponsors will be lining up to break into that Winnipeg soccer-watching market.
     
  8. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    There are more than one way to skin a cat!

    If the tournament had a travel sponsor, they would be the travel sponsor for the entire tournament not just those teams. So if, say, someone like Travelocity or Expedia was involved they would get exposure in all the markets and part of their "fee" could just be arraigning/providing travel for the lower level teams.

    Not saying it is going to happen but the notion that the only numbers that matter are the soccer attendance numbers in small/pdl markets is a bit off.
     
  9. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Realistically, we'd need two things to happen.

    First, there would need to be money (from the CSA or a sponsor) for the lower tier teams.

    Second, the tournament format would need to be rejigged for geography to keep travel costs down. Put the eastern PDL teams, the CSL, the Fury, TFC, and the Impact in one bracket and the other teams in another bracket. There would be no cross-country travel until the final which, realistically, would be between teams that can afford it.

    This is still a stretch, of course, and does nothing to address competitive balance but it might just let it happen.

    Personally, as much as I'd love to see an expanded tournament, I think we're better served limiting it to D1 and D2 teams for now.
     
  10. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    On that note, how would we define USLPro teams if ever we were to have any? USSF defines them as D3, but rumour has that the CSA is considering them to be D2. It makes sense, these teams are largely, if not completely, pro and typically draw 2k a game. That's a huge step up from our current D3.

    It's also more likely that we could support three USL pro clubs than supporting three more NASL clubs.
     
  11. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I don't really see the difference between the two leagues in terms of what it takes to support a team. As far as I can tell, both leagues have similar payroll, stadium, travel, etc. requirements. Unless you're meaning because the USL Pro teams would actually be farm teams for our MLS squads and therefore could operate with no fan support if they needed to.
     
  12. KenFromToronto

    Feb 25, 2013
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    While the regional bracket idea makes sense, it's also patently unfair to the MLS teams not named "Vancouver" ;)
     
    TOareaFan repped this.
  13. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Oh totally. I agree. I was just trying to present a scenario where it would be possible for lower tier teams to hope to participate without getting killed financially. The only way to do that (short of a CSA or sponsor sugar daddy) is to sacrifice concepts like fairness and competitive balance.
     
  14. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Really though, how much of a financial strain would it be? At most they'd have to travel for a total of three games in an 8 team tournament, also considering that there's extra revenue to be had. For teams drawing crowds of 1k or more, that alone would probably cover it.
     
  15. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I did some quick internet looking. Thunder Bay to Toronto (Air Canada, Westjet, or Porter) are around $430 per ticket. Thunder Bay to Vancouver (Air Canada or Westjet) is about $1000 per ticket. So travel costs could be $10 000 to $20 000 for 20 people. Hotel (I'm assuming two nights but shared rooms) and meals are going to add at least another $3000. I'm sure I'm missing some other costs. A single away game would therefore be from $15 000 to $25 000. If you draw 1000 fans to the home match you need ticket prices of $15 to $25 just to cover the cost of the away match.

    It's not impossible, but I think it underlines the reason D2 teams, which routinely undertake this sort of travel, need to draw 4000 to 5000 long term to be viable. A D3/4 team in Canada could take a big financial hit for the privilege of getting killed in an away game against an MLS team.
     
    KenFromToronto repped this.
  16. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Generally good numbers, but a few things to consider. First, I think that they could get away with staying over only one night. Second, if you're buying 20 tickets, you're also probably going to see a per ticket reduction in price. As well, if the schedule for the first round is set early enough, they could probably save further money for that trip by buying early.

    Could also look at chartering planes. The clubs (or CSA) could co-ordinate with a single charter airline to cover all necessary flights for the tournament, and the airline business being so competitive these days, I'm sure that a good deal on that could be obtained. Possibly a similar plan with a nationwide hotel chain.

    There's also the intangible value that comes with the promotion for the club. Surely ACC matchups wouild raise local attention, especially if they're up against one of the MLS squads (and if and when they host such teams, they can probably get a good sized crowd in for a substantial ticket price).

    This all before any kind of subsidies from the CSA (or possibly MLS clubs) or extra revenue from sponsorships or TV.

    Add up a bunch of small things, it becomes much more doable.
     
  17. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    There is also the additional revenue that can be achieved by having a gate-split arrangement built into the tournament.

    So, for example, if Thunder Bay have a home and away draw with TFC......and the tournament has a 75-25 gate split rule....Thunder Bay would get 75% of their home gate and 25% of the away gate. It is situations like this that have small clubs in England dreaming of an FA Cup 3rd round draw where they are drawn away to Manchester United.....the chances of getting to the 4th round are slim...but the pay off from losing at Old Trafford is huge!
     
  18. KenFromToronto

    Feb 25, 2013
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    ha, touche! it'll be interesting to see what they do and how they strike some of those balances going forward, no doubt. (i still feel spoiled that there even IS a full-blown Canadian Championship with a Champions League spot at stake, even after these years/us winning it four times!)
     
  19. kwfil

    kwfil Member

    Oct 30, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    One thing CSA should do first before adding any more teams is mandate teams have to play Canadians.

    I dont want to see Vancouver playing eleven foreigners and winning the Canadian Championship!
     
  20. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I was thinking about this again (because it's the offseason and there's not much to do but look forward to stuff). We've all been going on the assumption that lower tier teams will draw big crowds for home games against MLS teams. Looking back at the Canadian Championship results, however, I don't think this is the case any more. (It was when Montreal and Vancouver were D2.)

    Here are the attendances for Edmonton's home games:

    2011 (TFC) 5781
    2012 (Whitecaps) 3700
    2013 (Whitecaps) 2838

    2011 was good but not spectacular. 2012 was about double the season average while 2013 was barely above the season average. If this is for a D2 team, I'm not sure what a D3 team, which normally draws 1000 fans at most, would do.
     
  21. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think if you had a system where gates were split like they are in the FA Cup (as an example) the financial model for the wee teams changes. In that tournament gates are split 45% to each team and 10% to the prize pool.

    So if the Sudbury Wanderers (Wolves was taken by the hockey team ;) ) were drawn against TFC away, they would get 45% of the gate from a match at 30k BMO Field....that is the sort of model that could make it financially feasible for smaller teams to make cup runs a goal (may be tweaked so does not have to be exactly the FAC model but something along those lines),
     
  22. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Caveat though, you're not going to get 30k showing up to see TFC against Sudbury Wanderers. A game like that would probably draw 10k.

    Still, you make a good point.
     
  23. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not sure how many would show up......one major difference between North America and, say, the FA Cup is that in England teams are forbidden by rule from including FA Cup ties in their season ticket package. So the revenue from FA Cup games is readily identifiable (ie. it is all the tickets sold for that match)....as you know, TFC season tickets currently include the cup matches.

    The positive side to this is that TFC knows their cup matches, this year, will have at least 17k in the house.....the negative is that they have already included that revenue in their season's business model so finding a way to split the gate with smaller clubs is difficult.
     
  24. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Assuming the MLS clubs would even be terribly enthusiastic about this.

    "Hey, TFC! Yeah, we're going to need you to kick in a couple of hundred thousand so we can help a PDL club play in the Canadian Championship for one away game."

    Or even the D2 sides:

    "Hey, Edmonton! We know you're barely making ends meet as it is, but we're going to need you to send a quarter of your gate to Thunder Bay to help them fly to Alberta. Don't worry, though, you'll get at least $2 or $3k back from the gate for their home game."

    The CSA has the authority to do this sort of thing but there are also practical considerations involved.
     
  25. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Good point, never thought of that.

    I'm guessing that they could work it out by taking the total amount taken in by TFC for season tickets and dividing that by the number of games covered by the season ticket package, perhaps with some adjustment taking into account that Voyageur's Cup matches are considered less valuable than MLS matches.
     

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