2013 U-20 World Cup Qualifying Roster Thread

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Balerion, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. bisbee

    bisbee Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Sorry but simply because a guy has a "pro contract" it does not infer him with some special status in my book.


  2. thetank123

    thetank123 Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread


    Here's the defenders from the pool who currently play in the US:

    Akinyonde, Bolu
    Ambrose, Michael
    Cochrane, AJ
    Gallego, Bryan
    Kavita, Phanuel
    McCrary, Jordan
    Miller, Eric
    Okwuonu, Boyd
    Parker, Timothy
    Robinson, Jalen
    Torre, Javan
    Wendelken, Matt
    Yedlin, DeAndre
    Zimmerman, Walker


    The player pool is overhwelmingly American bsaed yet they are discounted for playing in America. If a Euro based kid is better than an American based kid that's fine. However, a Euro based kid is NOT better than an American based kid JUST BECAUSE HE PLAYS IN EUROPE.
  3. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    So who is better?
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    I think by the end of this MLS season you're gonna have Jack McBean in that category too. Just a gut feeling....................

    That U20 roster is hard to predict.

    Hell, let's just add all of Akron's 2012 freshman and sophomores. (Koroma, Yedlin, Trapp, Piña, Gallego, Souders, Serna, etc.) to Corona's roster above.


  5. YanksAreComing

    YanksAreComing Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread


    I'm a Philadelphia Union fan, I follow MLS and domestic soccer, even college, closer than any other league/country in the world. However, the trend absolutely has been against college soccer and toward professional players on our youth national teams, particularly the U-20s. In this cycle, on defense, our professional options happen to be based in Europe. I don't care where they're based, I want to have a solid pool of players to develop for the senior team.

    Am I discounting them because they are domestic based? No. Again, if my list were midfield, I'd gladly list Gil and Renken as options and Salgado as a striker option. Am I discounting them as options because they are not even professional soccer players yet? Yes, I am.

    So you're actually the one who's missing the point. I couldn't possibly care less where they're based, but it certainly seems as though the better options on defense happen to be located in Europe.
  6. ielag

    ielag Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    It actually will with the U.S. coaches. Rongen was pretty adamant about players being pros, and I'm sure Ramos will continue this trend.

    We still have a year to go till qualifying, but yes, John Anthony Brooks is far ahead of any college based CB at this point in the cycle.

    Others can certainly catch up, but some that have been named can be signed as MLS HG players but haven't been offered pro contracts yet.
  7. bisbee

    bisbee Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Do you mean is a professional better than a college guy,for instance? Depends on which guy plays better... i think some of the college guys are every bit as talented as their equivalent pro guys...
  8. thetank123

    thetank123 Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread


    You're automatically assuming a 19 year old on a pro contract is better than a 19 year old playing in college. Is the level of play higher? Absolutely. Does that mean the individual players are automatically better? It doesn't.
  9. bisbee

    bisbee Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Have you read the interview with Ramos about player selection? He says that simply being a professional does not give a player and automatic walk onto the team.
  10. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Well, historically the trend has seen a continual diminishing presence of college players on U-20 rosters.

    College players on U-20 squads

    2011: 4/20
    2009: 9/20
    2007: 6/20
    2005: 11/20
    2003: 8/20
    2001: 13/18
    1999: 13/18
  11. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    It's not a be-and-end-all thing to have a pro contract, but it is very important - especially in the context of a European club.

    Last May, Brooks turned down a 3 year pro contract from Bayern Munich to sign a 4 year deal with Hertha.

    Does that mean he is guaranteed to be good? Of course not. But it does mean that professional scouts at two teams are putting their $$ on the line for him based on what they've seen.

    Two things you have to look for in players in addition to watching them with your own eyes

    1) steady progression within a club's organization. Packwood has continuously moved upward within BCFC's system. He has always been a starter. He didn't hang around at any 1 level for too long. the move from the U18 to the reserve team was pretty smooth. It was the same with Cropper at Ispwich, Potts at West Ham.

    OR

    steady progression upward among different teams.

    Look at how smooth the progress was for Josh Gatt. He started at the second division in Austria then moved on quickly to the top division (and champion) of Norway.

    In other words, it's a great sign for a young player to move up to another level (within one organization, or among different teams/leagues) and adjust quickly.. and then be ready for a new challenge soon after. The rapid level of adjustment is telling

    2) the ability to secure a professional contract. If there is a contract, how many other teams were interested? Also very important is the length of the deal. If the player is a teenager and secures anything longer than 2 years, it's a good sign.

    None of this is full-proof, of course, but they are useful guidelines.

    Good, very good, and even great players will still come out of college and surpass players who were professionals from an earlier age but it will happen with reduced frequency than in the past.

    But that doesn't mean there aren't some key things to look for when looking at young players in the professional systems.
  12. thetank123

    thetank123 Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread


    You make good points as always. The point I'm trying to make is that there are any number of reasons why a youth player would not be in a pro contract yet. Maybe little Johnny never got to play in the Dallas Cup or a tournament like it, preventing him from being scouted by European teams. Maybe he didn't play for a DA team (keep in mind that Stanko, Cunningham and Gatt all played for Michigan Wolves or Vardar. Did they just happen to have three of the best players in the country or were there connections that let them be seen?). Maybe he couldn't afford to pay his way to Europe and didn't want to ruin NCAA eligibility. Maybe mom and dad thought he should get his degree.

    Blindly saying that Player X is better than Player Y when: A) the odds of anyone having even seen these kids play is minute and B) we've never seen them on the same field seems to be a bit absurd.
  13. bisbee

    bisbee Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Good points. My position is that you need to evaluate guys on an INDIVIDUAL basis and not simply base decisions on where or whom they play for. "Blind allegiance" is never a good thing.
  14. YanksAreComing

    YanksAreComing Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Never once said just because a guy plays in Europe it makes them better than a player in college. Not once. I know you're sticking to that point in multiple threads that everybody here thinks that a player is automatically better because they play in Europe, but I never once said that.

    Again, I don't care where they play. I just care that they are good players. Gil and Salgado, two domestic based players who I've seen play multiple times, I'm also very excited about. Funny how you fail to acknowledge that I've made that point and simply harp on me favoring guys just because they play in Europe.

    All I happened to do was point out that I think we have a very promising set of defenders using three examples who simply happen to play in Europe. If a U-20 eligible makes the bench in an FA Cup quarterfinal a full year before qualifying, he probably doesn't suck at soccer and stands a pretty good chance of being prominently involved in that U-20 cycle. Same for somebody who's been offered pro contracts by Bayern Munich and Hertha. Same for a second year pro who's been invited to a U-23 camp and looks primed to get first team minutes in Norway.

    My only point was, those 3 make me think we have a shot to have a good defense. I hope that guys like Zimmerman, Amrbose, and Robinson come in and blow them out of the water.
  15. thetank123

    thetank123 Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    It's a sticking point because you're doing the same thing other posters do. The players you mentioned just "happen" to play in Europe? Quite a coincidence, no?


    Answer a question for me: How many games have you seen our European based U20 pool players play that was not part of a youth national team competition? How many games, outside of Gil and Salgado, have you seen our American based U20's play?
  16. YanksAreComing

    YanksAreComing Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Uhhh, yeah, it is a coincidence.

    I. Did. Not. Say. That. They. Were. Better. Than. The. College. Players. Not sure how many different ways I can say that.

    But the reports I've read about the 3 kids, and their progression at their clubs, is promising to me, which in turns makes me feel pretty good about our defensive prospects.

    It's a ridiculous sticking point unless somebody says "Player X (based in Europe) is better than Player Y (based in the US) because he's based in Europe."
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    I don't think the Euro versus US versus Mexico is an issue for the US coaching staff.

    I do however think that players that are at pro clubs somewhere have a significant leg up on their amateur brethren. [Only 3 out of the 20 players on our last U20WCQ group were NCAA players. And at least one, Arreola, wouldn't have been in the squad if all Euros were available.]

    Right now they're casting a very wide net look at pro players in Europe, Mexico, the US........plus NCAA players.......plus development academy players. Right now we're simply building up the pool.

    Ramos isn't worried about the WC qualifying roster right now. He's still in identification mode......
  18. YanksAreComing

    YanksAreComing Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    Bingo. Plus Arreola was a classic "WTF Rongen" pick with MLS guys like McInerney available.
  19. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    That's the smart attitude. Training in a professional environment is better than training in the NCAAs (most of the time), but that doesn't automatically make a player better.

    Vincenzo Bernardo was training with Napoli when Josh Gatt, Teal Bunbury, Zarek Valentin, Bill Hamid, et al were playing HS and club ball.

    I think it's good to encourage players to find the best possible environment for them to develop their abilities as players, but when it comes down to picking a roster, you take the best guys wherever they may be.



    I think Tank123 makes good points, but he's perhaps chosen the wrong time to make his stand. There are legitimate reasons to be encouraged by Brooks, Ocegueda, Packwood, and Cunningham that go beyond the classic "there's a Euro club next to his name!!!" approach.


    I'm optimistic that Ramos will focus on taking the best players rather than being fixated on the pros once he sees them all in camp. That being said, I think some pros get a pretty easy pass into a camp.

    I'll pick on one guy: Hector Delgado, who was called into the first big U-20 camp. He's in Club América's system, but he barely plays for their youth teams. He comes off the bench now and then and accumulates a few minutes here and there. That's not how clubs treat prized youth prospects; it's how they treat "organizational soldiers" -- youth team roster filler. It would be generous to say that roughly 10% of academy players actually make it to the first team and Delgado doesn't have the profile of a player who is anywhere near 90th percentile at Club América.

    Mind you, I've never seen Delgado play, but the contextual evidence isn't good. I'm guessing Ramos hadn't seen him play, but now he has and he's learned what there is to know about the player. I suspect we've seen the last of Hector at the U-20 level, but that's just a guess based on the secondary source information to which I'm privy.


    Of course, there's nothing really lost by bringing a player in for a quick look, as long as you keep your eye out for better players. Letting the cream rise to the top naturally is a pretty easy concept, but it's a bit more complicated given the many paths available to US youth players. There's certainly room for improvement from the Rongen era.
  20. uscan18

    uscan18 Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    When and where is the next camp for the U-20's?
  21. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

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  22. drgonzo

    drgonzo Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    There is a massive bias from U.S fans towards youngsters who play in Europe compared to those who play in the states. It even goes so far as favoring a Euro based reserve player over a MLS regular. This might not be fair but overall the years of hearing that the MLS is crap, Euro teams are the best etc, some of us have had our opinions over run by the talking heads. With that said, I'm absolutely giddy with excitement with the idea of seeing Pelosi and Gil in the same midfield.
  23. ielag

    ielag Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    There's two types of extremes regarding some on the Euro vs. Domestic based youth players. Some are anybody playing in Europe should be on the team because they're based in Europe.

    But then there's the very pro MLS crowd that thinks a player getting regular 1st team minutes far exceeds a player getting minutes in the Euro reserves. Would you take Danny Cruz over Joe Gyau for the U-23 team just because Cruz has played quite a bit of 1st team ball for Houston (now with DC and injured) over the past couple years?

    As pointed out by some, you need to look at what type of club the Euro based player is with, and how their progression through the ranks has been there. Fabrice-Jean Picault got a whole bunch of the pro-Euro crowd excited because he was at Cagliari, but he was really just another body there and eventually let go.

    Then importantly, we have camps where we hope to call in as many available as possible to compare the players.
  24. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    I haven't seen anyone discounting Gil, Salgado, Pineda, Renken etc. is there a bias against NCAA players? Yes and I admit I'm generally dismissive of them, but I think most of us in this forum are fairly reasonable when it comes to MLS players.
  25. drgonzo

    drgonzo Member+

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    Re: 2013 U-20 World Cup Roster Thread

    What's the cut off year for the players in qualifying this go around?

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