"Outside the box" for me would be a player that had a good season at a less notable NCAA program, rather than a mediocrity who happened to play for a high profile NCAA program or who had past YNT experience. I agree that Allen was an easy and deserving callup. I also have no problem with Sorto; most MLS U-20s get at least one look because signing with a club is some level of implicit endorsement. Madison and Edwards look like weak and lazy choices to me. I am also skeptical of players who do not seem to be valued much at their clubs. Mario Rodriguez still hasn't played for Kaiserslautern at any level, to my knowledge. Daniel Cuevas is not a starter for Santos Laguna's U-20 team (16 games, 1 start, 1 goal, 439 minutes); given the attrition rate of academies, how can we have much hope for a player who can't even start for the reserves? Ocegueda has been stuck in the Tigres U-20 team for two years now, he's played sporadically due to injury and US U-20 team although he's always started when he was around, and now he's unattached. Lastly, I realize that Madison and Edwards are fringe players who probably would not have been invited had certain other players been available. However, the opportunity arose to take a look at new players and Ramos' choices did not speak well of his ability to identify emerging talent.
I don't disagree with you on any of that, Balerion. You would think that youth talent evaluation would be an important skill for a U20 coach. The question is whether Tab Ramos has those skills. He certainly has never worked in that field before. And I don't think we can call this a camp where Ramos is assembling his "best available talent," when there are so many first-time calls. I think he's trying to accomplish two things at this camp. Get a lot of his "A" team together, but take a look at some alternative fringe players. He knows what Ambrose can do. Does he need to see it again? Another notable absence (unless I missed it) is Dillon Serna, right? I mean, if I was to write my starting XI for this squad out right now, a lot of the non-Euro players are in this group. Then instead of taking a look at one set of alternatives (like Ambrose and Koroma for instnace) he chose to look at another set. Do any of them have a chance of making the qualifying squad? Probably not. Maybe Allen I guess..................... How many players actually make the qualifying team? Only 20 right? I bet you Ramos knows 18 of the 20 right now..............................and he's playing around the edges.
Here's why I think this is a "best available talent" camp. 1. There are only four first-time calls, which isn't that many especially because the overall size of this camp is a little larger than usual. 2. Qualifying is only two months away and I expect a coach like Ramos would want to start solidifying the core. There isn't any cap to camp roster size. If Ramos wanted to bring in Ambrose and make it 25, that's well within his powers to do so. The truth is that over the course of this cycle each camp has had a number of players who were unavailable so it "feels" like there are more regulars than can actual fit on a roster. Guys like Ambrose and Serna have participated in multiple camps, but that doesn't mean that they'll make the final cut.
Maybe. We know only 20 players make the qualifying roster. If a US or MLS-based player didn't make this roster (for reasons other than injury) then they should be quite worried. Say..................Jonathan Top, Jalen Robinson, DeAndre Yedlin, Dillon Serna, etc. A guy who's been on virtually every roster, but isn't on this one is Bryan Gallego. What's the deal there? It's impossible for me to believe that if Ramos was calling in his "best squad" than Dakota Edwards would be there over Bryan Gallego. If I was writing my 20 for qualifying right now, and I assume Brooks and Packwood aren't available, I'd almost certainly have Gallego on the roster. Wouldn't you? Hell, I might have him starting. Am I crazy?
"Nothing" sounds like a pretty extreme position to take. A lot of factors come into player selection, and while Sorto's signing with the Galaxy doesn't tell us all we need to know, it tells us something - even if I can't easily define exactly what it tells us.
Agreed. Actually, Gallego has only been on one roster, for the April 2012 camp in Portland. The defender who has been on many rosters but not on this one is Eric Miller.
We can tell how important the development academy is in the thinking of the USSF and its officials, because every time a US roster of any age group is released.................they make sure to mention the number of players with development academy ties. 19 of the 24 players on this particular U20 roster have ties to the Development Academy. There's a collection of brain cells in my head saying "But Clint, maybe that's because the players in the Development Academy ARE by and large the best players in the country." And yet, the other part of my brain screams Jose Francisco Torres, Geoff Cameron, and countless other names at me. It's player in the development academy that are being heavily scouted by pro and college teams. It's development academy players that are going to "elite" NCAA programs. These are the players that stay in the databases of USSF coaches/scouts. It builds and builds and builds on itself.
Yep, you can hear this being trumpeted in USSDA press releases. The Onion-style articles write themselves. "Twenty Development Academy Players on Twenty-Man U-18 Roster That Only Selected Players From Development Academy." Success! Anyway, in effort to contribute a little something different to the thread, here's a summary of call ups since the 36 man camp in Fort Lauderdale at the beginning of 2012. There have been seven camps including that one. I've bolded members of the upcoming camp. 7 -- Cuevas, Ocegueda, Okwuonu 6 -- Joya, Lopez, E. Miller 5 -- Garcia, Martin, Trapp 4 -- Cochran, Gil, Gomez, Pineda, Stanko, Torre, Zimmerman 3 -- Bijev, Casiple, Cropper, Dean, Koroma, McBean, McIntosh, Metzger, Rodriguez, Salgado, Top, Villarreal 2 -- Cunningham, Guzman, McCrary, Okoli, O'Neill, Packwood, Pelosi, Rogers 1 -- Akinyode, Allen, Ambrose, Brooks, Decker, Delgado, Dia, Duarte, Dunn, Edwards, Fehr, Fender, Gallego, Guido, Guzman, Kaminski, Kavita, Kiesewetter, Lacroix, Luna, Madison, Medina, McCargo, McGuire, T. Miller, Oliver, Payeras, Robinson,Serna, Sorto, Steffen, Vogel, Wendelken, Wiesenfarth, Wolverton, Yedlin
When I look at this roster and our U20 pool in general I still see so many holes. To me it looks like we have a glut of what I'd as an amateur call "attacking midfielders" and "wingers." I have concerns almost everywhere else It's one of those teams where you say, "we have a lot of talent on this team." Then you try to make a team and you realize all the elite talent plays the same position!!!!! (Especially if you take Brooks, Packwood, and some other Euro-based talent out of the equation). How do you make a team of these guys? There are going to be quite a number of talented attacking players like Serna, Alejandro Guido, etc. that aren't going to make it. Meanwhile we'll be scratching to figure out our back four................again. I mean, raise your hand if you're 100% convinced of Boyd Okwuono. I'm convinced he can play against NCAA-level players, but am I convinced he can handle the best U20's from Costa Rica? No, I'm not. And I'm the biggest fan of FCD products out there.................
It seems like the more a player's game resembles the way that Tab Ramos played, the more likely he is to be selected. In fairness, though, some of these guys do seem to defend quite a bit better than Ramos did. I see Okwuono as a familiar Bradenton type, a strong, compact center back who's a force against kids his age but not big enough to out-muscle forwards at a higher level. In cases like Nelson Akwari, Ofori Sarkodie, and Mykell Bates, it's been a developmental dead end. Will that also be Okwuono's fate, or will he make a successful transition out wide?
It tells us that people who are paid to evaluate young talent gave Sorto the ultimate compliment, a professional contract. That doesn't make him necessarily the best option or even an option but, given the dearth of professional defenders at Ramos's disposal, it does mean he's worth an invite to a camp.
I would say the easy answer is that signing a professional/MLS contract doesn't tell us everything we need to know, just that that is an important piece of information, reflecting not only a scout's/team's judgement but also providing a framework for future training, etc. See http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110...pect-mobi-fehr-signs-with-major-league-soccer This story says (1) Fehr's just turning 18 this month; and (2) he doesn't see himself as a central defender but as a "defensive midfielder." Edit: I first typed misfielder, but BS spellcheck showed me the error of my ways.
signing teenagers doesn't mean they are the best players presently. What it really means is that the evaluators see the greatest potential(technical/tactical/psychology/work rate) in all aspects to make the first team. Among teenagers, the teams are waiting for the light bulb to turn on and that time frame varies from player to player but it will never turn on if you don't give them an environment of consistent training and game time and that's the "black hole" in USA 17-22yrs old.
All very true, which is why you invite new players into camps like these; just taking a look. If Ramos keeps inviting in the same players over and over then he's either building up team chemistry or not casting up a wide enough net for talent, depending on your personal point of view. This is part art, part science and you can't possible have enough resources to cover all bases. It is especially difficult in the US, which both lacks the development structure of core soccer nations and has players scattered all over the US, Mexico, and Europe. Plus, Ramos got plucked from a situation from the outside of US Soccer for this job and so there isn't even a structure for coaches and managers to give them support and continuity. It's a tough job and I wish him luck.
I personally would err on the side of using the limited training time towards building up core chemistry between an identified core group of players. There's only so much time to prepare a team for a short tournament where chemistry is vital. I say identify the players you think are the core, secure their club availability before hand and work around the edges as needed with other call ups. Yes, it is guaranteed that you will miss some quality players. Mistakes will be made, but you can only learn so much from a player in one camp setting, which might be all you get to truly see a wide range of the player pool.
How far to that side would you want to err? Our youth national teams tend to focus a lot of their attention on developing core chemistry, yet between players getting injured, losing form, and being pulled away by club commitments, core chemistry routinely breaks apart. When it does, will the coach have explored enough options to adapt, or will his approach be brittle, leading to a team that falls off the rails like our 2011 U20s did? I see this as a defeatist and unpersuasive line. Arguably the biggest long-term impact our U20s have is whether or not they identify talented newcomers. If we look back in time to cases like Clint Dempsey and Benny Feilhaber, it didn't take a lot of camps to recognize their ability. Hell, Feilhaber was a U20 star from the moment he stepped on the field. Vastly better than what we would've had by continuing to build core chemistry between Greg Dalby and Mike Videira. I see it as easy to make excuses for a coach who falls back on the usual suspects as a crutch. Far too easy.
I listened to the YA Podcast (always a very good listen) over the weekend, our good friend bshredder projected the following lineup for qualifying: GK- Cropper CBs- Packwood, Zimmerman LB- Ocegueda RB- ???? CMs- Gil, Stanko LM- Pelosi RM- Joya STs- ???? I know striker he said was pretty wide open, I can't remember off the top of my head who the RB was, if any. Henley was discussed, but only in the context of the World Cup, not qualifying since he won't be released by Blackburn.
I believe there's generally been one CF and two wingers in Ramos's formations. It's just anyone's guess as to what the attackers will look like, but I think Joya will have one of the wing spots, then you also have Villarreal, and Cuevas seems to be someone Tab likes. Villarreal can also play as a CAM and it doesn't hurt he's played with McBean quite often the past year, and has played with Mario Rodrgiuez a bit too. Then who knows where Salgado stands when he's 100%, and he's played CF and wing. Pelosi can play wide or as a #8, though when out wide he could be better in a 4-4-2 than a 4-3-3.
I would slot in ---------Salgado Pelosi----Villareal---Joya ------Stanko--Gil Ocegueda-Packwood-Zimmerman- ? ------Cropper those two into Bshredder's lineup. No clue on the right back slot. No clue.
For me, any name you suggest is going to be good enough for me. I'm really totally lost on who should be there.