Which players under the age of 20 have started for Chicago this year or ever?? This guy was first choice by Ramos for a reason. Pineda hasn't gotten much playing time with Chicago because they do a lousy job of developing young players. Pineda played several times with Benji and scored more goals than him. Just because this kid is not hyped like the other players doesn't mean that he is sh*t. Might as well save your bullsh*t because you're not convincing me.
Nobody said anything about starting. I'm just talking about being on the fringe of the picture. Making the 18, subbing on occasionally, things like that. Pineda still isn't there yet. Try again.
What long-time posters like Balerion and myself realize is that it's difficult to say anything about these youth players without seeing them on a week-to-week basis. Part of the problem, of course, is that we have so many players in very different environments. How do you compare an NCAA player to an MLS player to a Europe/Mexico player? Do we actually have a clue how Marc Pelosi or Mario Rodriguez would play at the U20 international level? Of course not. We have no idea. Ramos will get the players together and compare them side by-side. Sheer number of youth call-ups mean nothing, and aren't a determining factor on how successful a player is going to be. Hell, we have players on our recent 2011 U20 World Cup qualifying team that have already fallen off the face of the planet. Sacir Hot? Moises Orozco? Eder Arreola? Moises Hernandez was shipped off to a Guatemalan bench. I'm not sure Korey Veeder has ever made a pro appearance. And on and on..................... The truth is we're all in the dark, but it's fun to speculate. Victor Pineda? I have no clue. However, like Leyva, Luna, Muniz, Navas Cobo, Donny Toia, etc. etc................at some point he needs to do something. He's almost 20, right? He's a 93? Chicago will need to make a decision on him soon. Kellen Gulley also. He's another former youth stud at the Fire that you never, ever hear anything about. Another Fire academy player and darling of these youth boards, Andrew Oliver, isn't even playing at Indiana right now. They made the NCAA semis without him.
These last two posts by Balerion and Clint are two of the best I've seen on the youth board. Should be repeated daily, stickied, framed and memorized by all.
The truth is we're all novices at this talent evaluation stuff. I was just burned badly by my love affair with Ruben Luna. I saw him dominate the development academy. He was the 2009 U16 division Player of the Year. He scored 38 goals in 27 games in the 2009 calendar year. Then in 2010 he was named to the U18 DA Best XI. I saw him play great, and score goals, against teams like Chelsea at the Dallas Cup . Then I saw him lead the reserve league in scoring in 2011!!!! Everything was on schedule. I posted time after time about what a great prospect Luna was..........referring to him as "the next Andy Najar." I posted time after time that I hoped Mexico wasn't paying attention so that he could fall into the USMNT's hands. What a magical story!!! Sure enough he gets cut by FCD last month, and I look like a slobbering boob. Did I learn my lesson? Probably not!!! Very few of these players we're talking about accomplished what Ruben Luna accomplished in the development academy. It just goes to show that what a kid does at that level has little meaning when a club is deciding what his value is to their first team. Ruben Luna didn't progress past the point of being a great reserve team player. In MLS game opportunites he looked lost early in the year, and we never saw him again. There's little room for sentimentality in MLS. You either advance and progress, or you're gone. Victor Pineda could easily be cut by the Fire any day now. So could a player like Conor Shanosky of DCU. And Josue Soto of the Dynamo. And Davey Armstrong of Colorado. And Victor Ulloa and Moises Hernandez of FCD.
Good Post, but isn't this the very problem with development in the US that there is no cohesive, consistant development where they do play against each other? Isn't that the basis for a comprehensive development ladder where the top aged based players compete vs each other to determine who's better and those who advance do so on the culmination of their overall skill. It's not happening now and probably won't happen soon but with so many players playing all over the place in so many disparate organizations how can we know who's better and shouldn't we know who's better based on a better new and improved infrastructure where they somehow do compete vs each other and advance to the next level based on competant scouting and evaluation. I can dream can't I.
I never wanted to be in a situation like Clint. That's why I only just got on the Landon Donovan bandwagon.
I'm not gonna continue arguing about Pineda but I think that if he was playing for L.A. or Philly, he would've played in several games with the first team by now.
Aren't you kinda stating the obvious, that present day MLS where there really isn't a mechanism for the best to play against each other and a recent historical basis where MLS teams signed overly prospective talents who really were never our nation's best can and will be cut anyday. Its like sending borderline college ready students to Dartmouth without providing rich support systems of tutoring and proper academic counseling helping them to succeed. Our HG program as it was and is sets out to almost ensure failure by #1 not signing top talent #2 not having an integrated development and training structure #3 Then judging them based upon what is really a first team roster spot rather than a youth development spot.
That would be an interesting thread. Which players who we thought would be successful and talented never quite made it. I don't know if we can determine that on a 20 yr old. Or which player did we think didn't have talent enough to make it, who in fact did.
Paging Danny Szetela. Danny Szetela please pick up the courtesy phone. The fry-o-later can wait.......................
The strange thing about Chicago is that they do not charge for any of their first team youth teams. So it is very interesting that they would not play him, but they also have not played any of their HG. I am going to go out on a limb and espress an opinion that is not based on fact but just on an observation. I think they signed Pineda for PR reason. Good player but not great.
He's one for me I remember getting so excited after watching him on FSC for a U17 game. I still think he had the talent to be a 10 yr MLS veteran but he had no dedication and humility to work hard. Can you tell me he had less natural talent than Danny ORourke or Brian Carroll.
I think alot of teams signed their first few HGs based on things other than knowing the players had to talent to succeed. I won't go to the ethnic PR level but I will go to the MLS headquarters hounding these teams constantly asking them who are they signing from their HG program, many teams probably said I don't want any of the local guys I want a few national talents, then got an answer from MLS HQ you know the rules, sign someone soon. OK here comes, Matt Ellis, Victor Ulloa, Davey Armstrong, Cesar Zamora, Conor Shanosky. Does that give you want you want? OK for now. I'll send out the press release on the success of the MLS Homegrown program.
I think it was a little different than simply a PR thing. MLS Headquarters gave the clubs rosters spots to sign homegrowns, gave them financial incentives to sign homegrowns, and gleefully encouraged them to do so. A club like FC Dallas dove headfirst by signing a whole bunch of kids. As it turns out they probably did some of the kids a disservice. Ruben Luna had committed to SMU. Would he have been better off going there? Who knows..................... FCD has since said that they're going to raise their standards on who they consider for a homegrown signing right out of the academy. One has to assume they believe Kellyn Acosta is a special talent. The other kids (like Okwuono, Ambrose, Garcia and company of recent vintage) are going to be NCAA bound. And those three (Okwuono, Ambrose, Garcia) are firmly candidates for this U20 World Cup team. Going to the NCAAs didn't hurt them in that regard, and they're getting games there. Until the reserve division/2nd division is more robust.................that may just be what we're going to have to live with. [I also think quite a number of these homegrowns weren't college material. That may sound like a crappy thing to say, but it may be true. Is it possible one or two of the FCD homegrowns couldn't get into college anyway, so FCD just used them as willing roster filler? Maybe....................]
Yes PR is public relations but I assumed it was PR for ethnic pandering rather than HG program PR.. Your post didn't clarify what type of PR was wanted.
The way I interpret the roster rules is that the roster spots open for 2 above minimum off budget roster spots don't have to be used for Homegrowns so I don't necessarily that they had to sign HGs, did not give them financial incentive and I agree they gleefullyDID encourage them to do so but for what reason. With any new program trial and error is needed unfortunately with that trial and error intersects with kids lives. I don't necessarily believe it was only a PR stunt and think many thought hey! this might just work but through the process I'm hoping MLS stops kidding themselves to think the HG program as its currently structured really isn't a quality development program and no its not only money but structure that's inhibiting young talent growth to be better utilized.
Not just on the field intelligence, obviously a big deal, but off the field desire to compete and willingness to put in the work to be an elite level.